CRJ collides into Fire engine on runway at La Guardia 3/22/26

BigBadLou said:
I know I am late to the thread but I really had to look up the definition of "Mass Casualty Event" which, as most of us suspected, does not fit this tragedy. It is only used by CNN and other tabloids to push the fear and panic narrative. I recall seeing it in many places when the new first broke. (I am NOT commenting on the OP's post, I assume he just copied it from some panic-inducing article)

As far as the crash, this could have definitely been avoided. Especially with their working ASDE-X system. Gotta wonder who they went to for programming (lowest bidder?) since the system "got overwhelmed by close proximity of vehicles near the rwy" and could not predict the collision. Does that sound like an excuse to anybody else? To me, it sounds like that's EXACTLY what the system was intended for.
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MCI is a term used in emergency medicine and this event definitely fit the bill. Especially in the initial stages when you truly don’t know how many casualties there will be. But suddenly getting 50+ potential patients is definitely an MCI.
 
BigBadLou said:
I know I am late to the thread but I really had to look up the definition of "Mass Casualty Event" which, as most of us suspected, does not fit this tragedy. It is only used by CNN and other tabloids to push the fear and panic narrative. I recall seeing it in many places when the new first broke. (I am NOT commenting on the OP's post, I assume he just copied it from some panic-inducing article)

As far as the crash, this could have definitely been avoided. Especially with their working ASDE-X system. Gotta wonder who they went to for programming (lowest bidder?) since the system "got overwhelmed by close proximity of vehicles near the rwy" and could not predict the collision. Does that sound like an excuse to anybody else? To me, it sounds like that's EXACTLY what the system was intended for.
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Welcome back!
 
Flying Keys said:
MCI is a term used in emergency medicine and this event definitely fit the bill. Especially in the initial stages when you truly don’t know how many casualties there will be. But suddenly getting 50+ potential patients is definitely an MCI.
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It seems that I am looking at a different definition of MCI.
Wikipedia (so please take it with a boulder of salt) says:
"A mass casualty incident describes an incident in which emergency medical services resources, such as personnel and equipment, are overwhelmed by the number and severity of casualties."

In any case, NOT a pleasant event in any way, form or shape, for sure.
 
Mileage said:
Delayed flights can land after midnight but nothing is scheduled after midnight.
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Exactly. At midnight, the traffic at LGA drops off to almost nothing due to the curfew.


bbchien said:
And no matter what AA and UA say there will be a reduction (Trivial or not) in the number of flights this summer.
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That's exactly what the airlines want to happen.

At many airports, it's use it or lose it on gates and/or slots. If one airline cuts back their schedule, due to airport capacity, but the competitors don't, the congestion will remain but the airline that did the sensible thing will lose gates, slots, and market share.

Capacity-constrained airports need the airport authority, or the FAA, to restrict slots across the board so that airlines can compete without that leading to severe congestion.

Most recent example is ORD. The Chicago Department of Aviation (CDA) allocates gates every quarter based on the number of flights each airline has operated over the past 12 months. When AAL announced a schedule increase, UAL had to announce a proportional increase as well or it would have lost gates to AAL at the next re-allocation. It's not a good system. UAL's move was very likely an attempt to force the FAA's hand on slots.
 
BigBadLou said:
It seems that I am looking at a different definition of MCI.
Wikipedia (so please take it with a boulder of salt) says:
"A mass casualty incident describes an incident in which emergency medical services resources, such as personnel and equipment, are overwhelmed by the number and severity of casualties."

In any case, NOT a pleasant event in any way, form or shape, for sure.
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It’s a very common practice for trauma centers to have MCI activation plans in place for the influx of patients. It’s also a mutual command thing - spins up all sorts of first responder actions (in reality it usually gets sparked by the first responders themselves).

It’s likely that the news folks picked up on the activation of the MCI plan, maybe through a scanner. Either way, I don’t think it’s irresponsible, maybe could just use some context that it’s a preparedness step for the worst case, taken at a first glance. Even if there end up being a few serious injuries or fatalities - it’s still an MCI. Also, MCIs get activated for things that are a lot smaller than this.
 
bonefishpete said:
Controller told fire truck to stop I believe before he entered the runway.

So in essence the clearance to cross was canceled. Fire Truck didn’t respond to cancellation.
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It wasn’t clear to me that was the case. Video from one source and audio from another should (could?) be put together. I know that LiveATC lags real-time by a few seconds.
 
Larry in TN said:
Exactly. At midnight, the traffic at LGA drops off to almost nothing due to the curfew.
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100%. But the guy you were responding to said everyone was rushing to beat the 12:00am "deadline" before the airport closed. But there is no deadline and delayed flights can keep landing whenever. It's not like DCA where they might have to divert if they don't make it in and they don't qualify for the noise restrictions.
 
Unless something has changed in the last few years, delayed flights may be allowed to land after midnight, but it's at the discretion of the Port Authority. I've had it go both ways, with one divert happening when I was only 10 miles from the airport. Let me tell you, that's really frustrating for everyone involved. :(
 
bbchien said:
And no matter what AA and UA say there will be a reduction (Trivial or not) in the number of flights this summer.
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A few days ago Southwest Airlines announced they were cancelling operations at ORD and IAD that served other US airports.

www.foxbusiness.com

Southwest Airlines to end flights at 2 major airports

Southwest Airlines plans to end service at Washington Dulles and Chicago O’Hare airports in June as the carrier shifts flights to other nearby locations.
www.foxbusiness.com www.foxbusiness.com
 
Article on condition of FA who was thrown out of the airplane.
I had not seen a photo of the firetruck before this… I can’t tell what side of it we see looking at, it is so mangled. And, surprising any occupants on board were not killed.

www.yahoo.com

Air Canada flight attendant ejected from seat during LaGuardia crash pictured in hospital as daughter describes horror injuries

Air Canada flight attendant Solange Tremblay suffered two shattered legs, a fractured spine, and severe skin damage in the crash
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com
 
BigBadLou said:
It seems that I am looking at a different definition of MCI.
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Actually, you are reading a different definition... It is Wikipedia, which you can go into right now and change that definition.

And it is not "wrong" but it is one assessment. Additional factors that are always consider:
  • Potential vs. Known: Protocols allow for declaring an MCI based on the potential number of victims (e.g., a bus crash with 40 seats) before all individuals are counted.
Since (I believe) a CJR 900 can carry up to 90 passengers, pending the configuration, plus the crew. Then there could be easily up to 6+ fire fighters, pending the truck. So going into it, I can see them calling it an MCI, which would have later been downgraded.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Article on condition of FA who was thrown out of the airplane.
I had not seen a photo of the firetruck before this… I can’t tell what side of it we see looking at, it is so mangled. And, surprising any occupants on board were not killed.
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You're looking at the top, and the front is on the left. This is an Oshkosh Striker ARFF truck. Driven from the middle, with additional passenger seats on both sides of the driver. Here's a pic of my older son in the drivers seat of a Striker:

IMG_4709.JPG

There was one additional person in the truck with the driver, but I haven't seen anything stating which side of the truck he was sitting on. And, of course, we don't know what their procedures are and whether they were followed.

Surprisingly, the New York Times has named the firefighters who were in the truck, without any information from the Port Authority or the union. https://www.nytimes.com/2026/03/27/nyregion/laguardia-firefighters-truck-air-canada.html
 
flyingcheesehead said:
That's not how it works, though. An MCI isn't declared for the benefit of CNN, it's for the emergency services. "Hey everybody, we might need a bunch of additional help here, so start gettin' your gear on and opening the garage doors..."
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Every three (?) years KMCI does a mass casualty exercise. About 50-100 volunteers show up and we play the victims with various injuries.

Yeah, you don’t want to wait on a crew to get to the scene, count victims, and then call it in. Get everyone there first. It’s an airliner crash, there are always mass casualties; this was the exception. Once the “mass casualty” alarm goes out, it seems like every ambulance in the county shows up. I think there were 20 or so for our last simulation. Turning them around if they aren’t needed is simple.

IMG_7294.jpeg
 
Ed Haywood said:
Maybe use the Special Ops model: the larger pool of candidates you bring in, the more attrition you can have, resulting in higher quality output.

Lowering of candidate standards can thus improve overall quality, counterintuitively. However, that depends on front loading attrition so training resources are not wasted on non-completes.

My suggestion: start ATC school with a week of carrying heavy stuff.

View attachment 151151
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Why don’t you quit f****ng around with the camera and help those poor bastages? Or is the younger you in that pic somewhere?
 
Tools said:
The fire truck shoulda stopped.
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I'd give that a "probably, but uncertain." There was a garbled, stepped-on transmission before ATC cleared the truck to proceed. That transmission might have been the truck questioning the red lights.

Is there a voice recorder in the truck? I haven't yet seen an interview with the truck occupants, but I assume that will happen when they're healthy enough.
 
Half Fast said:
I'd give that a "probably, but uncertain." There was a garbled, stepped-on transmission before ATC cleared the truck to proceed. That transmission might have been the truck questioning the red lights.

Is there a voice recorder in the truck? I haven't yet seen an interview with the truck occupants, but I assume that will happen when they're healthy enough.
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I doubt that.
 
Half Fast said:
I'd give that a "probably, but uncertain." There was a garbled, stepped-on transmission before ATC cleared the truck to proceed. That transmission might have been the truck questioning the red lights.

Is there a voice recorder in the truck? I haven't yet seen an interview with the truck occupants, but I assume that will happen when they're healthy enough.
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It's been 49 years since that same thing occurred in tower communications and was complicit in the crash of two 747s that killed 583 people.

I don't know much about radio. Is there any way to fix this?
 
3393RP said:
It's been 49 years since that same thing occurred in tower communications and was complicit in the crash of two 747s that killed 583 people.

I don't know much about radio. Is there any way to fix this?
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There is! Or there was. At one point in my life, I made an "anti-blocking device" about the same time as a retired American Airlines pilot patented his version of one. His prevented a transmission from being possible if a carrier wave was present on the frequency. My device went about it differently. I wired up a tone burst (1020 Hz) that beeped upon keying the mic. My idea was to alert anybody else about to key theirs that I'm about to speak. It worked great as far as I could tell but seemed to annoy ATC since many notified me that I had a beep every time I transmitted. I thought it had the better chance of being accepted, though, because it didn't punish the owner of the device like the other version did. He tried to get the airlines to buy his design, which involved having the FCC and FAA TSO new radios, IIRC. I simply plugged my mic into my little Radio Shack project box and accepted an occasional imperfect blocked transmission, which I don't even remember happening. When it broke, I lost interest. Life got in the way. I did have a memorable dinner with the other inventor, though. An interesting man and nice wife too. Ex-navy, IIRC.
 
Well, this is certainly a great discussion about the accident, and not turning into political bickering at all.

Oh wait, it's April Fools day.

Well, fool me twice, I'm going to lock this while we discuss if it is redeemable or not.
 
Okay, thanks to a moderator with more patience than me, the off topic posts have been removed. Thread drift is normal, but devolving into partisan bickering is not furthering the discussion. If you want to argue FAA hiring practices, please start that thread instead of crashing this one. FWIW, I don't see it lasting long. Anyway, this is an important event that bears discussing, so let's keep it on topic, please.
 
3393RP said:
It's been 49 years since that same thing occurred in tower communications and was complicit in the crash of two 747s that killed 583 people.

I don't know much about radio. Is there any way to fix this?
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Well, sorta. Radios can be designed to allow duplex operation on a single frequency, so you would be able to hear someone else talking while you’re transmitting. Other listeners would still hear the same heterodyne squeal that we now hear so often, but at least the two transmitting stations would be aware they were stepping on each other.

I’m not aware of any such radios on the market, though. I’ve just read concept papers.
 
It is certainly possible on AM but unfortunately the bandwidth is so wide that it's not possible to do within the current confines of the Air band as I understand it. We in Amateur Radio use "split" operation routinely on busy portions of the band. But that requires using two separate frequencies simultaneously. One for the operator's receive side and a different for transmit. Similar to an FM repeater but takes up many more times the frequency space.
 
KE5BM said:
It is certainly possible on AM but unfortunately the bandwidth is so wide that it's not possible to do within the current confines of the Air band as I understand it. We in Amateur Radio use "split" operation routinely on busy portions of the band. But that requires using two separate frequencies simultaneously. One for the operator's receive side and a different for transmit. Similar to an FM repeater but takes up many more times the frequency space.
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I think you’re correct. We use RF circulators in radar systems, but AFAIK they have to be for a very narrow frequency band. Been a long time since I messed around with that stuff.
 
Info just out yesterday points to a violation of SOP at La Guardia.

www.nbcnews.com

LaGuardia controller staffing may have violated procedures on night of collision, document shows

If the controller involved in the Air Canada crash was performing both air and ground duties, that would be inconsistent ⁠with the LaGuardia tower’s standard operating procedures.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com

A cascade of failures, starting in the fedguv - again with breakdown all the way back to staffing and training ATC for the complex LGA tower.
 
Barrett50 said:
Info just out yesterday points to a violation of SOP at La Guardia.
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The SOP was that Local and Ground was not to be combined until midnight.

From listening to the audio, it sounds to me like the Local controller took over Ground during the emergency on the ground, prior to the crash. That may have been because the other controller became too busy coordinating with the port authority and airline trying to get that airplane a gate or stairs before they had to evacuate. If so, the non-compliance may have been due to a reaction to an emergency in progress.

Will have to wait and see what the NTSB finds when they break it all down.
 
Could all of this have been prevented by monitoring ground?
 
Jim K said:
Well, this is certainly a great discussion about the accident, and not turning into political bickering at all.

Oh wait, it's April Fools day.

Well, fool me twice, I'm going to lock this while we discuss if it is redeemable or not.
Click to expand...
Jim K said:
Okay, thanks to a moderator with more patience than me, the off topic posts have been removed. Thread drift is normal, but devolving into partisan bickering is not furthering the discussion. If you want to argue FAA hiring practices, please start that thread instead of crashing this one. FWIW, I don't see it lasting long. Anyway, this is an important event that bears discussing, so let's keep it on topic, please.
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C'mon, where's your sense of adventure? :p

We've got another 2 1/2 weeks of guesswork before we get an NTSB prelim. There's probably not going to be a lot of new information at this point. It'll be interesting to see what they say.

Of course, everything old is new again and yet again, we have failed to learn from previous lessons (Comair 5191) and maintain the procedures that were put into place then to stop this from happening again. And the chances of "stuff" happening at La Guardia is already pretty high with the traffic levels, crossing runways, and anticipated separation. Someone should be on the hot seat as far as controller staffing.

Finally - It seems that the FAA is loving pushing safety management systems on everyone else, but the FAA themselves needs to have an SMS and use it. Every time there's a crash we hear that people have been sounding the alarm and it's falling on deaf ears. Congress must fully fund the FAA, and the FAA must get their act together, or we are going to just keep having crashes and that 16 year streak we had will be the longest we ever get.
 
It seems the controller really was trying to squeeze the emergency vehicles across until he wasn’t.

I thought it was interesting how the automated REL system turns the lights green at each intersection about 2 seconds before the plane gets there. Cross traffic running at 20-30mph and hitting the lights just as they turn green eats into that hold safety margin.
 
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