CRJ collides into Fire engine on runway at La Guardia 3/22/26

Their fate was sealed by the system. If controllers are systemically undermanned, and they ain’t gonna start shutting down runways, arrivals, etc… then we need to start training pilots to VERY ACTIVELY look out for this…
 
I agree. Visually, it would have been impossible to see the ground vehicles. Even something as large as another airline is hard to make out at night which is why line up and wait isn't allowed anymore. Even if they saw it, they'd have had to guess that the truck was going to pull out in front of them and go around at the last minute. By the time the truck actually was on the runway, they were already on the ground.
 
Barrett50 said:
Not confused at all. Another failmeister who can't figure out the literal quote. You can refer to it however you like, but News <> Entertainment.

As for those taking shots at the source:

Fox News led cable news ratings in 2025, increasing total viewership in both primetime and total day compared to 2024, despite slight declines in the key 25-54 demo.
CNN and MS NOW (formerly MSNBC) experienced significant double-digit declines in both total viewers and the 25-54 demo across primetime and total day.
Fox News dominated the list of most-watched cable news programs, with 14 of the top 15 shows.

'Here's your sign.'
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You ask a question, someone answers it and you call them names? That’s sad.

And before you criticizing other people about quotations, you should work on the basics of how to use a simple quotation symbol.
 
FlightmechH3 said:
The Port Authority Police were the ones responding to the emergency for the other airliner. Are the police FF too?

Now, it appears the driver of the crash truck had a mindset that he could just blast across a runway and the red lights despite talking to the tower. The policy is to stop no matter what and hold. He did not stop whatsoever and looking at the video, he was booking it.

Despite the verbal clearance, I feel the ATC has very little culpability in this disaster. This is on the driver and the Police commander for not following procedures. They should be terminated and sued. Qualified Immunity goes out the door when their poor decisions result in the death of others. I bet they did this a lot around the airport for the past several years.
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I wonder why we waste so much time and money on NTSB investigation when things are this obvious.
 
The material source I provided was on point, relevant, accurate, contained exact literal quotes from the NTSB and was of interest to me. There was ZERO opinion, and no editorial commentary about the facts of the conflicting info on the number of controllers and who was issuing clearances.

To object simply due to the location of the source and equating it to non-news pejoritively is why we can' t have nice things. The complaint was not directed the actual facts from the source but the source itself. As if FoxNEWS made up statements from the head of the NTSB? As if the source is trying to shift or hide resposibility? No. Just plain no. It was unbiased, informative and well researched.

Coming on here, and whining about the source - hey, no one told you to read it. Got a dispute with the material in the source? Lets here it. Crickets...
 
Terrible thing. My first thought, what happened to all of this? I know they were working on it in maybe 2005-2006 or so because at that time I got calls about one of our fleets (long gone) with transponders not playing right. I thought they were going to put some kind of transponders on trucks too. -> https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/asde-x
 
I read a report on the College Training Initiative schools back in the mid-2010s. The report indicated that one demographic group had a higher drop out rate after the first year (16% IIRC) than another demographic group (8% IIRC) therefore the CTI program must be racially biased. CTI candidates that had graduated and passed the FAA entrance exam with a score sufficient to be hired were told that they would not be hired based on CTI training, but would be considered equally with off the street candidates.

The FAA changed to a biographical questionnaire as the initial step in ATC hiring. If you passed the BQ, medical, and security checks, you were off to OKC for initial training. It was alleged that a minority advocacy group was giving the "right" answers to pass the BQ.

There may have been some candidates at OKC that didn't belong, and there may have been CTI students that were passed over in the process. Please also consider that every certified controller had to pass all the academic work, the simulation training, and OJT. A supervisor had to sign off that the student was in fact certified to work the position.

So, was the process fair? I'll let you decide, but if the process was followed, the controllers that passed met at least the minimum requirements.
 
AquaLand said:
You’re in good company. As I type, ATL is still using LUAW as I suspect are others…
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Most of the line up and wait clearances now are on runways not used for landing at that time. Some airports have waivers and still use it.
 
Plenty of visibility from that truck and they should have stopped per policy. They did not and got 2 killed and many injured.

And those red lights require a mandatory stop for everybody, even for emergency vehicles responding to an emergency. Period. Dot.

This is on the firetruck driver 100%.

If anyone entertains the thought that the pilots could have avoided this crash, you need to see a psychiatrist.
 

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Let'sgoflying! said:
See appendix G
Really hasn’t much detail other than ‘uses inputs from surveillance devices, computer algorithms’

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I have to admit this accident and thread are the 1st I have heard of REL lights.
But can't say I have flown at any airports that have them or am likely to.

My short read of how the works is it uses ADS-B data to determine when Aircraft are approaching or using a runway and turns the lights on.
Probably more complicated than that but I think that
is the basic idea.

Brian
 
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PastZTL said:
I read a report on the College Training Initiative schools back in the mid-2010s. The report indicated that one demographic group had a higher drop out rate after the first year (16% IIRC) than another demographic group (8% IIRC) therefore the CTI program must be racially biased. CTI candidates that had graduated and passed the FAA entrance exam with a score sufficient to be hired were told that they would not be hired based on CTI training, but would be considered equally with off the street candidates.

The FAA changed to a biographical questionnaire as the initial step in ATC hiring. If you passed the BQ, medical, and security checks, you were off to OKC for initial training. It was alleged that a minority advocacy group was giving the "right" answers to pass the BQ.

There may have been some candidates at OKC that didn't belong, and there may have been CTI students that were passed over in the process. Please also consider that every certified controller had to pass all the academic work, the simulation training, and OJT. A supervisor had to sign off that the student was in fact certified to work the position.

So, was the process fair? I'll let you decide, but if the process was followed, the controllers that passed met at least the minimum requirements.
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The problem is, once you circumvent the process at one level to achieve a pre-determined outcome that is not based on -- and at best orthogonal to -- merit in the position, is it reasonable to believe that that exact same bias would be foregone at other levels of screening that could or would frustrate that same pre-determined outcome? Pending a rigorous audit, it makes the entire process suspect, at least while that bias prevailed.

At the very least, if the problem is a shortage of trained, experienced controllers leading to staffing issues, that fact that some number of otherwise qualified candidates were washed out of the process a decade earlier to achieve said same pre-determined outcome seems quite relevant.
 
FlightmechH3 said:
Plenty of visibility from that truck
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Really? How do you know? Did the truck have a glass roof, and nothing blocking the view in the general direction of the aircraft? Did it have polarized windows to eliminate the glare from all the various lights reflecting off the wet pavement?

I'm not anti-speculation in accident cases, but in terms of visibility from the truck, you. do. not. know. Let the NTSB do the visibility study, they're very good at those...

Plus, blaming it all on the fire truck ignores the FAA's negligence in ATC understaffing.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Really? How do you know? Did the truck have a glass roof, and nothing blocking the view in the general direction of the aircraft? Did it have polarized windows to eliminate the glare from all the various lights reflecting off the wet pavement?

I'm not anti-speculation in accident cases, but in terms of visibility from the truck, you. do. not. know. Let the NTSB do the visibility study, they're very good at those...

Plus, blaming it all on the fire truck ignores the FAA's negligence in ATC understaffing.
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I live right near a retired ATC, in fact, he's about 500ft from me. The understaffing was caused by politicians for the past decade or more. Some ATCs have slipped through the cracks, but not this one. In fact, the facility managers get a bonus keeping the OT down

Again, the driver of the crash truck is at fault 100%. He had the infamous hero complex to save those poor stewardesses from some odors.
 
Albany Tom said:
My takeaway and thing I learned today is that from that clip CBC news is better than anything remotely pretending to be news in the US.
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Oh come on, we get quality reporting like "Boeing 777 struggles to maintain altitude after running out of fuel"! :rolleyes:

FlightmechH3 said:
I live right near a retired ATC, in fact, he's about 500ft from me. The understaffing was caused by politicians for the past decade or more. Some ATCs have slipped through the cracks, but not this one. In fact, the facility managers get a bonus keeping the OT down
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Two decades. More like 2.5. It goes all the way back to when the PATCO replacements started becoming eligible for retirement, and got really bad in 2008 when the FAA started imposing silly rules on the controllers that remained, causing a spike in retirements from which we have yet to recover.

FlightmechH3 said:
Again, the driver of the crash truck is at fault 100%. He had the infamous hero complex to save those poor stewardesses from some odors.
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And you don't even put 1% on the government understaffing the facility and causing the one overworked guy to issue a bad instruction?

You're absolutely sure that the fire truck driver had a perfect, unobstructed view? And you're absolutely sure that they were perfectly trained? You're sure that the ARFF managers and ATC managers had talked about routes to use in various circumstances to ensure the best possible safety for both airplanes and ARFF equipment in an emergency?

Again - YOU. DO. NOT. KNOW. THESE. THINGS. If you only look at the most superficial level, you can easily blame the driver of the truck. That's not what accident investigation is about.
 
FlightmechH3 said:
I live right near a retired ATC, in fact, he's about 500ft from me. The understaffing was caused by politicians for the past decade or more. Some ATCs have slipped through the cracks, but not this one. In fact, the facility managers get a bonus keeping the OT down

Again, the driver of the crash truck is at fault 100%. He had the infamous hero complex to save those poor stewardesses from some odors.
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Obviously the sexy stews would have some culpability as well, if, as women, they were capable of independent thought and agency.

Oh, but the stews can't communicate with tower, so it must have been the United pilots who called for the trucks. Undoubtedly an all female "cockpit."

:rolleyes:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Oh come on, we get quality reporting like "Boeing 777 struggles to maintain altitude after running out of fuel"! :rolleyes:


Two decades. More like 2.5. It goes all the way back to when the PATCO replacements started becoming eligible for retirement, and got really bad in 2008 when the FAA started imposing silly rules on the controllers that remained, causing a spike in retirements from which we have yet to recover.


And you don't even put 1% on the government understaffing the facility and causing the one overworked guy to issue a bad instruction?

You're absolutely sure that the fire truck driver had a perfect, unobstructed view? And you're absolutely sure that they were perfectly trained? You're sure that the ARFF managers and ATC managers had talked about routes to use in various circumstances to ensure the best possible safety for both airplanes and ARFF equipment in an emergency?

Again - YOU. DO. NOT. KNOW. THESE. THINGS. If you only look at the most superficial level, you can easily blame the driver of the truck. That's not what accident investigation is about.
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Naw. The Reagan CRJ crash was 30% ATC and 70% on Lobach in the H60.

The FF truck violated policy 100% crossing the runway. 100% on the driver for this crash and the controller is clear on this one.

Emergency crews cannot just blast through intersections of runways, let alone city street despite having their lights and sirens on. This odor that somehow escalated to an "Emergency" was not justified.

The airport was going to close down at midnight, which the crash happened at 11:45pm. So was a push to get planes in/out before the deadline.

Everybody talks safety, but never follows it.
 
Lindberg said:
Obviously the sexy stews would have some culpability as well, if, as women, they were capable of independent thought and agency.

Oh, but the stews can't communicate with tower, so it must have been the United pilots who called for the trucks. Undoubtedly an all female "cockpit."

:rolleyes:
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Again with the White Knight BS.
 
Mileage said:
Very possible, but still suggests at least the possibility of pilot error, is all. We'll see what comes out officially in the fullness of time. Those guys were so young. It's heartbreaking.
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I don’t agree. No suggestion of pilot error at all.

You trying to get hired at the NTSB?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Oh come on, we get quality reporting like "Boeing 777 struggles to maintain altitude after running out of fuel"! :rolleyes:
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I miss the Weekly World News. Or really, reading the headlines in the line at the grocery store. My favorite of all time is "B-25 found on moon!"

These days a headline like that would end up with a cult following and people raising money to go check it out.

CNN still might win when they had on the screen that the space shuttle was breaking up over Texas at 8 times the speed of light. It's sad when the people that think they're real reporters come up with scenarios that are less possible than the folks doing intentional spoofs.
 
flyingron said:
I agree. Visually, it would have been impossible to see the ground vehicles. Even something as large as another airline is hard to make out at night which is why line up and wait isn't allowed anymore. Even if they saw it, they'd have had to guess that the truck was going to pull out in front of them and go around at the last minute. By the time the truck actually was on the runway, they were already on the ground.
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I did the not allowed thing twice today. Probably didn’t have the proper cover sheet on the memo and ATC ignored it.
 
FlightmechH3 said:
Naw. The Reagan CRJ crash was 30% ATC and 70% on Lobach in the H60.

The FF truck violated policy 100% crossing the runway. 100% on the driver for this crash and the controller is clear on this one.

Emergency crews cannot just blast through intersections of runways, let alone city street despite having their lights and sirens on. This odor that somehow escalated to an "Emergency" was not justified.

The airport was going to close down at midnight, which the crash happened at 11:45pm. So was a push to get planes in/out before the deadline.

Everybody talks safety, but never follows it.
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Why was the airport going to close at midnight? The chart supplement says it operates continuously.
 
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Mileage said:
I mostly agree, but it's still strange to me that 30 seconds before touchdown there are multiple vehicles requesting to cross runway 4, which is a short runway so I don't think it would be reasonable to expect them to cross a safe distance down the runway, and there is no reaction whatsoever from the pilots. No conversation between them, no clarification request to Tower, never mind executing a missed approach. Just nothing. Putting aside whether there was time and room to execute a go around, the CVR doesn't indicate the pilots noticed anything at all unusual. I get that they are task saturated etc so I have no idea whether my observation is even fair.
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Fly an instrument approach in a CRJ at night in the rain down to 100' RA and get back to us on the possibility of initiating a go around from that position based on brief nonstandard radio communication between the tower and ground equipment.
 
FlightmechH3 said:
Naw. The Reagan CRJ crash was 30% ATC and 70% on Lobach in the H60.
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Disagree. 100% on Eaves and Lobach. They violated see and avoid.
FlightmechH3 said:
The FF truck violated policy 100% crossing the runway. 100% on the driver for this crash and the controller is clear on this one.
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Disagree. 50% ATC for instructions and 50% on FF driver for not confirming it was clear to cross.
FlightmechH3 said:
Emergency crews cannot just blast through intersections of runways, let alone city street despite having their lights and sirens on. This odor that somehow escalated to an "Emergency" was not justified.
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Agreed.
FlightmechH3 said:
The airport was going to close down at midnight, which the crash happened at 11:45pm. So was a push to get planes in/out before the deadline.

Everybody talks safety, but never follows it.
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"Never" follows it? Yeah, I can't say that's true. Never is a strong word. Do some push the envelope? We all know the answer.
 
Controller told fire truck to stop I believe before he entered the runway.

So in essence the clearance to cross was canceled. Fire Truck didn’t respond to cancellation.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
Reagan CRJ was 90% on FAA for poor route design.
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Well for sure it didn't anticipate how badly the execution of design would be- subjectively interpreted by the ATO in favor efficency vs risk.

A culture change has to occur in the ATO- that means it's leader is going to have to find a different task....Frank McIntosh or maybe the deputy director for Safety (I can't remember the lady's name), is gonna end up sacrificed.

And no matter what AA and UA say there will be a reduction (Trivial or not) in the number of flights this summer.
 
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FlightmechH3 said:
Mass casualty event
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I know I am late to the thread but I really had to look up the definition of "Mass Casualty Event" which, as most of us suspected, does not fit this tragedy. It is only used by CNN and other tabloids to push the fear and panic narrative. I recall seeing it in many places when the new first broke. (I am NOT commenting on the OP's post, I assume he just copied it from some panic-inducing article)

As far as the crash, this could have definitely been avoided. Especially with their working ASDE-X system. Gotta wonder who they went to for programming (lowest bidder?) since the system "got overwhelmed by close proximity of vehicles near the rwy" and could not predict the collision. Does that sound like an excuse to anybody else? To me, it sounds like that's EXACTLY what the system was intended for.
 
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