CRJ collides into Fire engine on runway at La Guardia 3/22/26

[Learnin’ to fly…]

This. Systemic failures start years before the event, but precipitate in seconds, which removes almost all margin for error. Operational failures precipitate over a much larger window, giving more room for incident avoidance. While you can't classify every accident into this structure, it is alarming how many you can.

It's one of the most fascinating parts of any sort of incident analysis. Look at Colorado Springs and Aliquippa 737 crashes. Those failures were put in motion through systemic issues (equipment design, certification, maintenance procedures, pilot training and awareness) that started almost a decade before the incidents in question.

What has me most interesting in this accident is the confluence of stakeholders with immediate operational responsibility AND the structural events at play. At least four people made decisions or were in a position to avoid the incident (two pilots, one controller, one ARFF truck operator). As we've established above, the likelihood the pilots could have had the situational awareness to prevent this accident is low; data from the black boxes and analysis of flight training procedures will probably eliminate this. The other two, operational issues (airport emergency, task saturation, time of day, weather) and systemic issues (training, staffing levels) all will likely play a role.

As a call out -- thanks to all of you with direct operational experience for your contributions. There are some really golden posts in this thread.

I’ve seen a few references to the pilots situational awareness - and that just does not make sense to me. I’m not arguing- I am trying to learn what I may not know.

How would Jazz have had any inclination that 1) there was an incident occurring on field or 2) that emergency vehicles were rolling or 3) that vehicles were cleared to cross the runway? All of those comms were with ground. I have read that some airports have a protocol requiring runway cross clearance with tower - but since there was no indication of truck 1 changing freq - it would seem that these all occurred on ground. WE hear it as a single stream because Live ATC tends to combine ground/tower into a single feed at night.

Does anyone here (GA or commercial) monitor ground at any phase prior to clearing the runway? I never have and can’t fathom why I would. In my view, the only way the pilots avoid this is by not operating that flight. How could they have known? What am I missing?

 

[GLMS_NC]

How would the Jazz pilots be aware of an emergency on the field as all of the emergency discussions were conducted on the ground control frequency?

It was nite. It was raining. I guarantee while on final their eyes were focused inside with just an occasional look outside. Maybe no outside views until close to the ground.

Looking outside and seeing red and blue (not orange) flashing lights would be the only way. Other than a radio having ground control frequency active.

At touchdown eyes are focused on the immediate task at hand (landing) and the crew would not see emergency lights. Further out on final would have been the only opportunity, and there may have been visibility issues; we just don't know.

 

[M20K]

An interesting note is that the flight crew was arrested & spent 24 hours in jail.

If they had the clearance to Take Off, why were they jailed and not the Fire Truck crew? There has to be more to the story.

Who offered any source material from "Fox Entertainment"?

Ummm..... The first line of your comment included "...From a Fox news..." So I guess you did.

 

[Mileage]

I’ve seen a few references to the pilots situational awareness - and that just does not make sense to me. I’m not arguing- I am trying to learn what I may not know.

How would Jazz have had any inclination that 1) there was an incident occurring on field or 2) that emergency vehicles were rolling or 3) that vehicles were cleared to cross the runway? All of those comms were with ground. I have read that some airports have a protocol requiring runway cross clearance with tower - but since there was no indication of truck 1 changing freq - it would seem that these all occurred on ground. WE hear it as a single stream because Live ATC tends to combine ground/tower into a single feed at night.

Does anyone here (GA or commercial) monitor ground at any phase prior to clearing the runway? I never have and can’t fathom why I would. In my view, the only way the pilots avoid this is by not operating that flight. How could they have known? What am I missing?

The LiveATC recording is from the 118.7 Tower frequency which it just records passively and captured all the comms from the fire truck, the Jazz flight, and the controller. There is a separate LiveATC recording at the same time for the 121.7 Ground frequency. This implies that the participants in the disaster were all on the same frequency - Tower - and could hear one another etc. So the Jazz pilots presumably would have heard the Tower controller clear the fire truck and company across the runway. To me that does suggest the pilots might have had a window to execute a go around. Whether it was long enough or not is another question. I had thought they would also be aware of the separate United problem, but most of that chatter happens on the Ground frequency and not the Tower frequency. There is a mention of the United problem on the Tower frequency prior to the crash but it's fleeting.

 

[Bacho]

The CVR event
transcript.

 

[donjohnston]

Who offered any source material from "Fox Entertainment"?

If the person who gave the wrong authority to proceed means nothing to you, that's fine. I would like to figure out who it was for training purposes and to relieve others from responsibility.

That'd be you.

From your post #170:

From a Fox news capture of the NTSB showing their head(or balls) scratching:

"Federal investigators say they have uncovered "conflicting information" in LaGuardia Airport control tower logs and still do not know who was handling ground-control duties in the moments before a deadly runway collision late Sunday, March 22.

If your confusion is about the "entertainment" part, after the president of Fox stated during a trail, something to the effect of "This is not a news show, it's entertainment", many people refer to Fox News as Fox Entertainment.

 

[Brad Z]

It would have taken absolute next level situational awareness for either the Captain or First Officer of the CRJ to equate the clearance given to Truck 1 and company to cross runway 4 as a high level hazard worthy of initiating a low altitude go around back into icky weather at 11:30 at night.

Could they have picked up on that? Sure.

Was it likely? No.

 

[Jim K]

It would have taken absolute next level situational awareness for either the Captain or First Officer of the CRJ to equate the clearance given to Truck 1 and company to cross runway 4 as a high level hazard worthy of initiating a low altitude go around back into icky weather at 11:30 at night.

Could they have picked up on that? Sure.

Was it likely? No.

Even then, if I was in their shoes, I would've assumed that the controller knew something I didn't...as in the truck had time to cross, or was crossing somewhere behind me. "And Company", might have given me pause, but there are many times controllers have done something that I thought wouldn't work, and then it does. Do you know the taxiway layout of every airport you land at? I try to familiarize myself with where I'm parking and the likely route to get there, but again, putting myself in their shoes, I don't think I would've had a clue where "delta" was and that it was after my touchdown point. I could probably label a blank diagram of my HOME airport, but drawing it from scratch....that'd be challenging, and we only have alpha, charlie, and bravo.

Actually, I just went and looked....there's a delta and echo I didn't know about. At my home base.

That's what so upsetting about this and the DCA crash. These guys were doing everything right, everything that could be expected of them, and they died because the system failed. "But for the Grace of God..."

 

[Brad Z]

Even then, if I was in their shoes, I would've assumed that the controller knew something I didn't...as in the truck had time to cross, or was crossing somewhere behind me. "And Company", might have given me pause, but there are many times controllers have done something that I thought wouldn't work, and then it does. Do you know the taxiway layout of every airport you land at? I try to familiarize myself with where I'm parking and the likely route to get there, but again, putting myself in their shoes, I don't think I would've had a clue where "delta" was and that it was after my touchdown point. I could probably label a blank diagram of my HOME airport, but drawing it from scratch....that'd be challenging, and we only have alpha, charlie, and bravo.

Actually, I just went and looked....there's a delta and echo I didn't know about. At my home base.

That's what so upsetting about this and the DCA crash. These guys were doing everything right, everything that could be expected of them, and they died because the system failed. "But for the Grace of God..."

I agree, 100%.

If I were in their shoes, and I was sooo on my game that I caught the controllers instruction, just so happened to know that taxiway delta was half way down the runway and could be a conflict, the most I likely would have done is queried the controller to determine if the truck was crossing in front or behind me, assuming I could get a word on as the frequency was busy.

And I say all of that with the bias of a Monday morning quarterback. In reality, on short final, my focus would be on getting the plane down smoothly on the runway, which was exactly what the crew did. At night we scan for things on the runway, not things approaching the runway…because there’s always lots of movement at a busy airport.

 

[SLB]

In several places I see a reference to the CRJ instructed to land #2. Who was #1? How much time separation would there have been between #1 and #2 at this airport?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

As for "Fox Entertainment", I stopped watching them years ago. Way to many of their stories just didn't add up and it took two seconds to discover the facts did add up. Years ago they had a pretty good "news" team, but they all either got canned or left when real news went out the window. (Doesn't matter if you lean right or left, but it should matter to you to get real facts.)

Yep. Final straw for me was when they were showing Wisconsin teachers "protesting violently on the capitol square in Madison" with footage of an angry mob marching down a street lined with... Palm trees.

We know there weren't enough controllers in the tower. They were not there, because they do not exist. It is the same situation in every FAA tower in the country, along with every TRACON and ever ARTCC. Most "ATC Delays" are either due to, or worsened by, staffing.

Exactly... But that's the point. This is on the FAA and Congress as much as anyone, and we need to demand better.

That's not how it works. Under those conditions, night, in rain, and with an approach speed around 140kts, the PF will be on the instruments until relatively close to minimums with only occasional scans out the window. His goal is to keep a stable approach, on speed, until the DA. At some point near DA, it changes to primarily visual with frequent cross-checks of the instruments and that continues until the initiation of the flare. You pay very little attention to aircraft or vehicles holding short of the runway because there frequently are airplanes and vehicles holding short of the runway.

The bad stuff started happening when they were at 100 AGL, where the PF would have already been outside I think - What was ceiling/vis at the time?

In that truck, the driver sits in the middle so there was no blind side (or there were two, depending on how you look at it).

Do we know what kind of truck it was for sure?

And yes, center cab would mean both sides are blind, though the roofline might be less of a factor.

The problem is that the airplane would have been well behind his shoulder, due to the angle of the taxiway, and he might not have turned far enough to see it. Particularly true since he had just been cleared to cross and did not expect to see an airplane at less than 100' above the ground. Confirmation bias is a real threat and likely also contributed with him missing the red RWSL.

Yes to all of that.

 

[Velocity173]

I agree, 100%.

If I were in their shoes, and I was sooo on my game that I caught the controllers instruction, just so happened to know that taxiway delta was half way down the runway and could be a conflict, the most I likely would have done is queried the controller to determine if the truck was crossing in front or behind me, assuming I could get a word on as the frequency was busy.

And I say all of that with the bias of a Monday morning quarterback. In reality, on short final, my focus would be on getting the plane down smoothly on the runway, which was exactly what the crew did. At night we scan for things on the runway, not things approaching the runway…because there’s always lots of movement at a busy airport.

And I think the short final part is the most important distinction. At 100 ft up is obviously a critical stage of flight. Being able to catch an ATC error at that point would be slim. I usually listen to ATC instructions for other aircraft while in the pattern or even inside the FAF but over the approach lights? Nope. Outside of a go around call I’m pretty committed to landing. Sure, I’m scanning for other vehicles / aircraft but trying to detect some trucks mixed amounts all the other ground lights would be a herculean task in my opinion.

Also, it probably wouldn’t have mattered but I would have liked to have heard “runway” with that crossing instruction. Maybe it would have clued Jazz into something getting ready to cross in front of them. Just the usual poor phraseology that busy facilities use though.

 

[Barrett50]

If they had the clearance to Take Off, why were they jailed and not the Fire Truck crew? There has to be more to the story.

Ummm..... The first line of your comment included "...From a Fox news..." So I guess you did.

Ummmm, you should take an English refresher and learn what a literal quote is and when to use them.

 

[Barrett50]

That'd be you.

From your post #170:


If your confusion is about the "entertainment" part, after the president of Fox stated during a trail, something to the effect of "This is not a news show, it's entertainment", many people refer to Fox News as Fox Entertainment.

Not confused at all. Another failmeister who can't figure out the literal quote. You can refer to it however you like, but News <> Entertainment.

As for those taking shots at the source:

Fox News led cable news ratings in 2025, increasing total viewership in both primetime and total day compared to 2024, despite slight declines in the key 25-54 demo.
CNN and MS NOW (formerly MSNBC) experienced significant double-digit declines in both total viewers and the 25-54 demo across primetime and total day.
Fox News dominated the list of most-watched cable news programs, with 14 of the top 15 shows.

'Here's your sign.'

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Not confused at all. Another failmeister who can't figure out the literal quote. You can refer to it however you like, but News <> Entertainment.

As for those taking shots at the source:

Fox News led cable news ratings in 2025, increasing total viewership in both primetime and total day compared to 2024, despite slight declines in the key 25-54 demo.
CNN and MS NOW (formerly MSNBC) experienced significant double-digit declines in both total viewers and the 25-54 demo across primetime and total day.
Fox News dominated the list of most-watched cable news programs, with 14 of the top 15 shows.

'Here's your sign.'

Not to derail the thread, but ratings have nothing to do with truth. In fact, if anything, it's the opposite.

You should go read about the "Tucker Carlson defense" which Fox News has used successfully several times in court in defamation cases, and that is that Fox's own lawyers successfully argued that no reasonable person can take them seriously as a news source. Do with that what you wish.

 

[Matthew]

Do we know what kind of truck it was for sure?

And yes, center cab would mean both sides are blind, though the roofline might be less of a factor.

What about the rest of the vehicles trailing the lead? Did any of them have a better view? Were any of them aware of the situation?

There could have been several other sets of eyes able to see the aircraft. Maybe they did and assumed the lead vehicle did, too?

There were lots of moving parts.

 

[AquaLand]

In several places I see a reference to the CRJ instructed to land #2. Who was #1? How much time separation would there have been between #1 and #2 at this airport

SWA3988 was #1. JZA646 was about 3.5 nm in trail as #2.

 

[Albany Tom]

Not to derail the thread, but ratings have nothing to do with truth. In fact, if anything, it's the opposite.

Wait, you mean "Seinfeld" was fictional? There's a guy in my building that has a Festivus pole in his office who's going to be heartbroken.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

What about the rest of the vehicles trailing the lead? Did any of them have a better view? Were any of them aware of the situation?

I'm guessing they saw the RWSL and stopped. Wonder if any of the rest of them were yelling on the radio for that lead truck to stop too.

 

[Matthew]

I'm guessing they saw the RWSL and stopped. Wonder if any of the rest of them were yelling on the radio for that lead truck to stop too.

I was wondering about that, do those vehicles have a “CVR”? My scenario here is: #2, and following, see what’s going on, slow to stop and assume #1 will also stop. #1 doesn’t, #2 has the best view, takes a second or two to realize what’s about to happen, then yells at #1. I’m guessing they have their own freq since it didn’t get recorded with tower/ground. Would the tower commands to stop get lost in a transmission from a trailing vehicle?

The simple thing here seems to be the “what”, but the “how” is pretty important to figure out.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I was wondering about that, do those vehicles have a “CVR”? My scenario here is: #2, and following, see what’s going on, slow to stop and assume #1 will also stop. #1 doesn’t, #2 has the best view, takes a second or two to realize what’s about to happen, then yells at #1. I’m guessing they have their own freq since it didn’t get recorded with tower/ground. Would the tower commands to stop get lost in a transmission from a trailing vehicle?

Worse yet, could the heterodyning of the FD radio have made an ugly noise that drowned out the aircraft radio, so that the combined effect of a bunch of people yelling "stop" resulted in none of them being heard?

 

[M20K]

Ummmm, you should take an English refresher and learn what a literal quote is and when to use them.

I actually do know. Now are we taking in Formal, Business, Technical, Online, etc., etc.? (There are different totally accepted uses.)

 

[Matthew]

Worse yet, could the heterodyning of the FD radio have made an ugly noise that drowned out the aircraft radio, so that the combined effect of a bunch of people yelling "stop" resulted in none of them being heard?

The last line of defense would have been the RWSL. I need to do a little more reading on what triggers the lights to change.

 

[Ed Haywood]

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

See appendix G
Really hasn’t much detail other than ‘uses inputs from surveillance devices, computer algorithms’

https://skybrary.aero/sites/default/files/bookshelf/3444.pdf

 

[Mileage]

It would have taken absolute next level situational awareness for either the Captain or First Officer of the CRJ to equate the clearance given to Truck 1 and company to cross runway 4 as a high level hazard worthy of initiating a low altitude go around back into icky weather at 11:30 at night.

Could they have picked up on that? Sure.

Was it likely? No.

I mostly agree, but it's still strange to me that 30 seconds before touchdown there are multiple vehicles requesting to cross runway 4, which is a short runway so I don't think it would be reasonable to expect them to cross a safe distance down the runway, and there is no reaction whatsoever from the pilots. No conversation between them, no clarification request to Tower, never mind executing a missed approach. Just nothing. Putting aside whether there was time and room to execute a go around, the CVR doesn't indicate the pilots noticed anything at all unusual. I get that they are task saturated etc so I have no idea whether my observation is even fair.

 

[Brad Z]

I mostly agree, but it's still strange to me that 30 seconds before touchdown there are multiple vehicles requesting to cross runway 4, which is a short runway so I don't think it would be reasonable to expect them to cross a safe distance down the runway, and there is no reaction whatsoever from the pilots. No conversation between them, no clarification request to Tower, never mind executing a missed approach. Just nothing. Putting aside whether there was time and room to execute a go around, the CVR doesn't indicate the pilots noticed anything at all unusual. I get that they are task saturated etc so I have no idea whether my observation is even fair.

At that point the tower chatter was background noise. They were most certainly listening for their call sign, but tower coms with ground vehicles would not have registered as an issue. I doubt they ever even heard the reference to runway 4.

I’ll also add that there was possibly a language issue…

At least one article quotes the aunt of the Quebecois Captain, Antoine Forest, as saying that “he would spend summers with her as he practiced his English to become a pilot.”

As a French Canadian, he no doubt spoke English very well, but English and LaGuardia ATC English are not exactly the same, and a non-native speaker might not pick up on all of the nuances of the radio transmissions between the truck and the tower. The first officer, who was flying pilot at the time, was focused on the landing and unlikely paying as close of attention as the non-flying pilot.

Air Canada pilots Antoine Forest and Mackenzie Gunther died in LaGuardia plane crash

Investigators released details from the final three minutes of cockpit and tower communications, which showed controllers cleared both the plane and a fire truck to cross the runway.

www.bbc.com

 

[wanttaja]

I'm guessing they saw the RWSL and stopped. Wonder if any of the rest of them were yelling on the radio for that lead truck to stop too.

This way outside my body of knowledge, but....

I understand the fire truck had been verbally cleared, but the RWSLs were still red.

When I look at the video, it looks to me like the truck *never* stops. Now, I know when one is driving and approaching a red light, if you see the opposing traffic's like turning yellow, there's a temptation to keep rolling on the assumption that your light turns green by the time you get there.

Could this be a potential scenario for the accident?

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Mileage]

At that point the tower chatter was background noise. They were most certainly listening for their call sign, but tower coms with ground vehicles would not have registered as an issue. I doubt they ever even heard the reference to runway 4.

I’ll also add that there was possibly a language issue…

At least one article quotes the aunt of the Quebecois Captain, Antoine Forest, as saying that “he would spend summers with her as he practiced his English to become a pilot.”

As a French Canadian, he no doubt spoke English very well, but English and LaGuardia ATC English are not exactly the same, and a non-native speaker might not pick up on all of the nuances of the radio transmissions between the truck and the tower. The first officer, who was flying pilot at the time, was focused on the landing and unlikely paying as close of attention as the non-flying pilot.

Air Canada pilots Antoine Forest and Mackenzie Gunther died in LaGuardia plane crash

Investigators released details from the final three minutes of cockpit and tower communications, which showed controllers cleared both the plane and a fire truck to cross the runway.

www.bbc.com

Very possible, but still suggests at least the possibility of pilot error, is all. We'll see what comes out officially in the fullness of time. Those guys were so young. It's heartbreaking.

 

[Albany Tom]

I mostly agree, but it's still strange to me that 30 seconds before touchdown there are multiple vehicles requesting to cross runway 4, which is a short runway so I don't think it would be reasonable to expect them to cross a safe distance down the runway, and there is no reaction whatsoever from the pilots. No conversation between them, no clarification request to Tower, never mind executing a missed approach. Just nothing. Putting aside whether there was time and room to execute a go around, the CVR doesn't indicate the pilots noticed anything at all unusual. I get that they are task saturated etc so I have no idea whether my observation is even fair.

I don't know the airport procedures at all, but even if it's one controller listening to multiple radios, wouldn't he be talking as tower on one frequency and on ground on another? Or in other words, I wouldn't think that the firetrucks would here the airplane clearance nor the pilots the firetruck clearance. If so, I do think that's reasonable and proper because there's normally a lot of traffic on both, and you want to keep the frequency as clear as possible for the aircraft talking to tower.

 

[Brad Z]

I don't know the airport procedures at all, but even if it's one controller listening to multiple radios, wouldn't he be talking as tower on one frequency and on ground on another? Or in other words, I wouldn't think that the firetrucks would here the airplane clearance nor the pilots the firetruck clearance. If so, I do think that's reasonable and proper because there's normally a lot of traffic on both, and you want to keep the frequency as clear as possible for the aircraft talking to tower.

The trucks were established to be on tower frequency. The CVR of the CRJ confirmed that.

 

[midwestpa24]

At that point the tower chatter was background noise. They were most certainly listening for their call sign, but tower coms with ground vehicles would not have registered as an issue. I doubt they ever even heard the reference to runway 4.

It has been noted the controller did not use the word "Runway" when clearing the trucks to cross. The transmission was "cross 4 at delta" instead of "Cross Runway 4 at Taxiway Delta". Insignificant, maybe? But when someone is busy and only half monitoring the radio transmission, the words Runway 4 may have caught their attention better. "Cross 4 at Delta" could be easy to miss without the additional context.

 

[Brad Z]

Very possible, but still suggests at least the possibility of pilot error, is all. We'll see what comes out officially in the fullness of time. Those guys were so young. It's heartbreaking.

“Pilot Error” is not the correct term here. Was there an opportunity for the crew to stop the accident chain? Sure, but I think most consider that very remote. That’s not an error.

 

[Brad Z]

It has been noted the controller did not use the word "Runway" when clearing the trucks to cross. The transmission was "cross 4 at delta" instead of "Cross Runway 4 at Taxiway Delta". Insignificant, maybe? But when someone is busy and only half monitoring the radio transmission, the words Runway 4 may have caught their attention better. "Cross 4 at Delta" could be easy to miss without the additional context.

Add in a potential language barrier (I edited my post to mention the fact that English was the captain’s second language) and I think that’s definitely a real possibility.

 

[FlightmechH3]

The Port Authority Police were the ones responding to the emergency for the other airliner. Are the police FF too?

Now, it appears the driver of the crash truck had a mindset that he could just blast across a runway and the red lights despite talking to the tower. The policy is to stop no matter what and hold. He did not stop whatsoever and looking at the video, he was booking it.

Despite the verbal clearance, I feel the ATC has very little culpability in this disaster. This is on the driver and the Police commander for not following procedures. They should be terminated and sued. Qualified Immunity goes out the door when their poor decisions result in the death of others. I bet they did this a lot around the airport for the past several years.

 

[dtuuri]

Yep. Final straw for me was when they were showing Wisconsin teachers "protesting violently on the capitol square in Madison" with footage of an angry mob marching down a street lined with... Palm trees.

Well, if men can have babies...

 

[flyingron]

ow.

How would Jazz have had any inclination that 1) there was an incident occurring on field or 2) that emergency vehicles were rolling or 3) that vehicles were cleared to cross the runway? All of those comms were with ground. I have read that some airports have a protocol requiring runway cross clearance with tower - but since there was no indication of truck 1 changing freq - it would seem that these all occurred on ground. WE hear it as a single stream because Live ATC tends to combine ground/tower into a single feed at night.

I agree that it's not Jazz's fault, but everything you say after that is wrong.

All the communications were on the local (TOWER) frequency. The liveatc stream we've been discussing has only the tower. There is no liveatc stream at LGA that has a mix of ground and tower.

 

[M20K]

Now, it appears the driver of the crash truck had a mindset that he could just blast across a runway and the red lights despite talking to the tower.

Where did that come from? I highly doubt if the person driving had not been though multiple training courses with the dumb training slide show/test NYS has (or one similar). Then add that the person in the right seat was likely more senior, probably working the radio, and certainly would have spoken up if they did not have clearance to cross. But then doesn't the transcript confirm they called and they (incorrectly or not) did get a clearance to cross?

By chance did the comment come from some other online group or hype news channel?

 

[Learnin’ to fly…]

I agree that it's not Jazz's fault, but everything you say after that is wrong.

All the communications were on the local (TOWER) frequency. The liveatc stream we've been discussing has only the tower. There is no liveatc stream at LGA that has a mix of ground and tower.

Yes, I was mistaken here. It is not clear where the discussion with UA was taking place, but the emergency vehicles were on tower. I don’t listen to LGA often, but I typically fall asleep listening to live ATC (you know - white noise for the aviation obsessed) and many of the airports that I listen to will have a combined ground/tower stream. I assumed - and you know what happens when you do that.

Still - I can’t see an argument here for how the pilots realistically do anything different. If there is, I would love to learn something from it. To me, their fate was sealed at take off.