CRJ collides into Fire engine on runway at La Guardia 3/22/26

Add in the time to go from whatever thrust they were at while tens of feet AGL to enough spool up and speed increase to begin a go around and I don’t thing there was anything that the pilots could have done differently before impact. Maybe offset to one side, but it all happens so quickly.

Also, as @flyingcheesehead asked, the truck may not have been actually holding at the hold-short and may have been approaching it and got the crossing clearance while rolling at some speed (along with company clearance it sounds like).
 
Add in the time to go from whatever thrust they were at while tens of feet AGL to enough spool up and speed increase to begin a go around and I don’t thing there was anything that the pilots could have done differently before impact. Maybe offset to one side, but it all happens so quickly.

Also, as @flyingcheesehead asked, the truck may not have been actually holding at the hold-short and may have been approaching it and got the crossing clearance while rolling at some speed (along with company clearance it sounds like).
I'd be curious when the Air Canada had passed the point of no return here and were committed to the landing. There were some indications in the transmission that emergency vehicles were attempting to cross the runway 28-40 seconds before impact. Would that have been enough time given where they were in the landing had they executed a missed approach at that time? The pilots also theoretically had the option to decide that they were not going to land while there was an active emergency on the field.
 
And they have procedures that explicitly state that vehicles should not cross red indications, even after prior clearance to enter the runway, without further verbal confirmation.

I wonder whether that's what happened here:

0:28: Truck one made a radio transmission to the tower.

0:26: The tower acknowledged that the tower cleared truck one and company to cross runway four at taxiway delta.

0:18: An electronic 100 enhanced ground proximity warning system call-out occurred.

0:17: Truck one read back the runway crossing clearance.


There was a previous ground communication that was stepped on. Imagine if the truck, not realizing its tranmission was covered up, had said something along the lines of "We're seeing red lights. Please confirm we have clearance to cross the runway." Then the tower transmission at 0:26 would be interpreted as the required "further verbal confirmation."

Pure speculation, I know, but it leaves me curious.
 
There was a previous ground communication that was stepped on. Imagine if the truck, not realizing its tranmission was covered up, had said something along the lines of "We're seeing red lights. Please confirm we have clearance to cross the runway." Then the tower transmission at 0:26 would be interpreted as the required "further verbal confirmation."
There was a transcription error around that time which I have corrected and I've gone over the whole thing a few more times to make sure it accurately matches what was said at the press conference. Don't think it effects the validity of that question, though. Interesting thought to ponder.
 
That works great in theory, except there isn't a 100% pure performance metric that works for predicting success at ATC jobs. You can have a controller candidate that does great in a training environment, but put a live microphone in front of them and their brain locks up. We've all seen that in pilot candidates as well. Why might past experience in live theater/performance be partially a predictor for success at ATC? Because you'd have some experience of "being on the spot" and talking from a script. I don't know if that pans out as true, but it certainly is an angle to look at when trying to improve the success rate of candidates working through the system.

The math is quite simple, if you have a system that can only successfully train 3,000 controllers per year, and you have more than 3,000 controllers leaving, you're behind the 8-ball. When you're starting from a 35% understaffed status, you need to ramp up to train >50% more than your replacement numbers to catch up in a reasonable amount of time. In order to do that, you need to put the training location where the instructors want to live, because they are there long-term (hopefully) vs. the trainees only being there for a few months.
The DEI initiatives that were started in 2014, ended in 2022 actually created a controller shortage. How can that be? Simple. They took DEI precedence over all candidates and not just the CTI kids. That’s means, those military veterans that already passed an FAA approved ATC school, had radar (RAPCON, RATCF, ARAC) ratings didn’t have the preference that they had before. By having those ratings, they could skip training at the FAA academy such as my brother did. He already had his tower CTO so all he had to do was the radar portion at OK City. That saves valuable time and money and put him in the OJT loop earlier than an “off the street” applicant. Also, the CTI programs just aren’t sims and not talking to real aircraft. Some (Eastman GA) leave with their CTO and can go directly to a tower and skip OK City all together.

So really it’s common sense that hiring someone with previous ATC experience can not only reduce training times, reduce cost, but fill much needed ATC slots faster than someone who doesn’t know the difference between a C150 and a C550.
 
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The pilots also theoretically had the option to decide that they were not going to land while there was an active emergency on the field.
How would the Jazz pilots be aware of an emergency on the field as all of the emergency discussions were conducted on the ground control frequency? The UAL flight didn’t formally declare an emergency until about 6 minutes before the accident. UAL had requested ARFF about 10 minutes prior (after RTO #2) but when ATC queried UAL if they were declaring an emergency (since no gate was available), UAL just said keep ARFF responding without answering the question about emergency status.
 
Later, the controller heard from another plane: "That wasn't good to watch," the Frontier pilot said.

"Yeah, I know, I was here," the air traffic controller responded. "I tried to reach out to my staff, and we were dealing with an emergency earlier and I messed up."

Wasn't LGA closed right after the crash? Sounds like 'staff' had more important things to do, you know, more important than a fatal runway incursion.
Being a stupid, I'ma gonna quote myself here, and expand. From a Fox news capture of the NTSB showing their head(or balls) scratching:

"Federal investigators say they have uncovered "conflicting information" in LaGuardia Airport control tower logs and still do not know who was handling ground-control duties in the moments before a deadly runway collision late Sunday, March 22.

During a briefing Tuesday, National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) Chair Jennifer Homendy said investigators are working to resolve inconsistencies in tower records, including discrepancies in dates and times.

"We do have logs, but there’s also conflicting information, including dates and times on the logs," Homendy said.

Investigators said it remains unclear who was performing the ground controller role—responsible for managing aircraft and vehicle movement on taxiways—with conflicting accounts pointing to either the controller in charge or the local controller."

Ruh-roh.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On a separate note - regarding the controller training issue, I think it should be just let drop, and I regret my expository uncovering of the blatant discrimination practiced by the feds to alter the hiring program. It's over 10 years, they got away with it, and we need to move forward and get some good tube jockeys on the scopes. It's done, stick a fork in it. We know it affected those on the job, so lets move on.
 
This doesn't present any evidence that the policy resulted in a reduction in safety.
No. But it created the shortage by taking 3000+ applicants out of the system and reduced the numbers of willing participants by blatantly putting other requirements above skill and aptitude until congress shut it down in 2018.
 
Agree with everything except the unwillingness of a controller to say no. I think his task saturation just reached that boiling point and had a momentary lapse.

But that's why the rwsl are there.

I respect that viewpoint… I guess I’m in this camp due to the SYSTEMIC nature of it. Have been SO MANY close calls. Seems LOTS of controllers are getting there. Makes it less of a “just happens” sort of thing.

I do believe that happens, just a glitch… but this just does t fit that mold for me.
 
True, that's an undeniable human condition. Same as making a left turn right in front of a speeding motorcycle. That's where two trained professional emergency vehicle operators can reduce whatever weaknesses of synapses, or urgency, or whatever condition is preventing noticing a threat to life that's plainly in view.
It’s called inattentional blindness. Human brains are built to be pattern matchers, never more so than when under cognitive load. For many people, objects in the environment that don’t match the pattern you’re attending to may as well not exist. Exactly how you don’t see the kid on his bike right in front of you because you’re scanning for cars. Certainly some people have fewer problems with this than others or there would be more accidents.
 
How would the Jazz pilots be aware of an emergency on the field as all of the emergency discussions were conducted on the ground control frequency? The UAL flight didn’t formally declare an emergency until about 6 minutes before the accident. UAL had requested ARFF about 10 minutes prior (after RTO #2) but when ATC queried UAL if they were declaring an emergency (since no gate was available), UAL just said keep ARFF responding without answering the question about emergency status.
That's fair. My point was more a reaction against the statement "there was nothing the pilots could do." As an example, the Tower controller asked 30 seconds before the crash "who is the vehicle asking to cross the runway" which might have raised a question about continuing to land in some pilots. Also, there was an emergency on the field so it's not crazy to imagine the pilots might have heard about it, but if it's not on the tape then you're 100% right about that.
 
Why would they decide that? They also had the option to call in sick before going to work that day.
The pilots may not have seen or noticed anything amiss as the airport. Or they might have registered an unusual number of emergency vehicles with flashing lights, transmissions about those vehicles crossing the runway etc and landed anyway. Or they might have noticed those things and initiated a go around or asked Tower to confirm the runway was clear before landing. or all of this might have happened at the point of no return under any circumstances. I realize it's very easy to morning quarterback any of this, so I'm just offering scenarios not theories.
 
I realize it's very easy to morning quarterback any of this, so I'm just offering scenarios not theories.

That is something to remember for everyone that was involved in this accident, the entire accident chain of events was 10-20 seconds. We have had almost two days now to think about and pick apart each persons actions during those seconds, and all decide that "we" would have done something different, with the knowledge of what the end result was. 10 seconds of inattentiveness, complacency, mental overload, or just plain reaction time for the controller, the firefighters, and the pilots. The world is a dangerous place.

Fate is the hunter...
 
It’s called inattentional blindness. Human brains are built to be pattern matchers, never more so than when under cognitive load. For many people, objects in the environment that don’t match the pattern you’re attending to may as well not exist. Exactly how you don’t see the kid on his bike right in front of you because you’re scanning for cars. Certainly some people have fewer problems with this than others or there would be more accidents.

I'd never heard of that, and it makes perfect sense.

I would surmise that "Inattention Blindness" can become more problematic as a person becomes elderly. I've always attributed elderly drivers pulling out into a roadway when they shouldn't, and turning in front of approaching traffic, was strictly due to worsening cognitive function and poor eyesight. Probably a combination of multiple factors, none of them good.

The airport diagram shows the Delta intersection taxiway wide and somewhat odd shaped. Where a truck would line up and point to cross R/W 4 and cross with the intent arrive in center of Delta taxiway on the other side would appear to favor an approximate heading of 070 degrees.

This 070 heading would require the occupant sitting in the right seat to lean forward and twist their head backwards over their right shoulder to look down the runway. Wearing wearing a helmet would require their head movement to be even more accentuated for a good view off to about their 4 or 5 o'clock as they get close to crossing.

A serious look-see down the runway before crossing may not have been done, but rather completely replaced by the traffic style light and/or the tower clearance to cross.
 
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I respect that viewpoint… I guess I’m in this camp due to the SYSTEMIC nature of it. Have been SO MANY close calls. Seems LOTS of controllers are getting there. Makes it less of a “just happens” sort of thing.

I do believe that happens, just a glitch… but this just does t fit that mold for me.
I think we're in the same camp regarding the systemic nature of it.
 
It’s called inattentional blindness. Human brains are built to be pattern matchers, never more so than when under cognitive load. For many people, objects in the environment that don’t match the pattern you’re attending to may as well not exist. Exactly how you don’t see the kid on his bike right in front of you because you’re scanning for cars. Certainly some people have fewer problems with this than others or there would be more accidents.
There’s an old YouTube video that demonstrates this:

 
BREAKING: Fire truck in deadly LaGuardia collision didn't have a transponder needed to trigger warning system, NTSB says. -AP
 
I'd be curious when the Air Canada had passed the point of no return here and were committed to the landing. There were some indications in the transmission that emergency vehicles were attempting to cross the runway 28-40 seconds before impact. Would that have been enough time given where they were in the landing had they executed a missed approach at that time? The pilots also theoretically had the option to decide that they were not going to land while there was an active emergency on the field.
Once the reversers are out flying is no longer an option. Any go around initiated below 50’ is essentially guaranteed to touch the runway and then take back off. Unexpectedly having to go from ~100 ft likely results in a touchdown. If they didn’t see the truck as a threat before ~150 ft it was essentially unavoidable in my opinion.
 
There’s an old YouTube video that demonstrates this:


A similar video was presented to a group of us many years ago (it had a gorilla) and the results were eye opening to say the least. Many folks may not realize that to be truly observant takes training ...
 
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I still think ROOT cause was a controller not willing to say no to an unsafe manning situation.
I would not expect that a controller has any ability to "say no to an unsafe manning situation." I mean, collectively they've been saying it for many years, but they're still expected to show up and work whatever traffic shows up using whatever staffing the supervisors and the FAA in general are providing. They can't just say "Sorry, I don't think I can do that safely by myself" and shut the airport down.

0:40: The LaGuardia Tower asked which vehicle needed to cross a runway.
0:28: Truck one made a radio transmission to the tower.
0:26: The tower acknowledged that radio transmission.
0:25: Truck one requested to cross runway four at taxiway delta.
0:20: The tower cleared truck one and company to cross runway four at taxiway delta.
0:19: An electronic 100 enhanced ground proximity warning system call-out occurred.
0:17: Truck one read back the runway crossing clearance.

0:14: An electronic 50 call-out.
0:12: An electronic 30 call-out. And at that same time, the tower instructed a Frontier Airlines flight to hold position.
0:11: An electronic 20 call-out occurred.
0:10: An electronic 10 call out occurred.
0:09: The tower instructed truck one to stop.
0:08: There was a sound consistent with the airplane's landing gear touching down on the runway.

0:06: There was a pilot transfer of controls from one pilot to the other. (The first officer transferred control to the captain.)
0:04: The tower again instructed truck one to stop.
0:00: The recording ended.
So, the plane was at 100 AGL, about 6 seconds from crossing the threshold, when the tower cleared the truck across.

They may have been able to do a successful go-around if it was initiated IMMEDIATELY, and the tires probably would have hit the pavement in the process... But at LGA it's routine for controllers to use anticipated separation and the crew may not have known exactly where the vehicles were that were on frequency, nor did they have the time to do any assessment of the situation whatsoever. It'll be interesting to see what was said in the cockpit.

Add in the time to go from whatever thrust they were at while tens of feet AGL to enough spool up and speed increase to begin a go around and I don’t thing there was anything that the pilots could have done differently before impact. Maybe offset to one side, but it all happens so quickly.
Probably not even that - They were doing well over 100 knots at impact, so maneuverability is next to nil.

That's fair. My point was more a reaction against the statement "there was nothing the pilots could do." As an example, the Tower controller asked 30 seconds before the crash "who is the vehicle asking to cross the runway" which might have raised a question about continuing to land in some pilots.
At that point they were just asking to cross, and it's reasonable for the flight crew to assume that they'd be held short of the runway until they landed. By the time the errant instruction was given, it was too late.

Also, there was an emergency on the field so it's not crazy to imagine the pilots might have heard about it, but if it's not on the tape then you're 100% right about that.
The emergency happened before they were handed off from Approach.
 
I would not expect that a controller has any ability to "say no to an unsafe manning situation." I mean, collectively they've been saying it for many years, but they're still expected to show up and work whatever traffic shows up using whatever staffing the supervisors and the FAA in general are providing. They can't just say "Sorry, I don't think I can do that safely by myself" and shut the airport down.

Of course they can. And possibly get fired…

Or live with this consequence the rest of your life.

That is precisely what I meant by ITS HARD. But honestly, THAT is what we should expect of someone charged with this kind of responsibility.
 
Most of the time after some sort of major accident there are people who know I'm a private pilot, and they ask me if I'm afraid to fly because of whatever "x" condition is. That specifically happened after the Potomac helicopter/airplane crash, and I told my friend who was concerned with her daughter flying that the chances of that particular accident happening again were just about zero.

After the recent Newark near hit, I'd mention that to me it's not a good time to fly in the NYC area. I'm not Kreskin, this was waiting to happen.

I'm kinda wondering if anyone in the FAA or other senior leadership group advised any of their friends of family to avoid that area, too.

Root cause to me is that someone believes that all the airports need to be open, or all the flights need to happen.

There's no team of experts at the FAA that are going to say that this was anything other than preventable at a system level.

I feel sad for everyone there that was involved.

Maybe all this is out of line for this thread, if so I apologize. I can't process the details because the big picture just seems so overwhelming senseless and stupid to me.
 
Asking honestly, would that red light be on if an airliner is in the middle of the runway with a nosewheel broken off? If so, by this rule, the fire truck would have to wait on the taxiway until the plane magically moved itself? I'm sure I"m missing something, but I'm thinking that firetrucks are used to running red lights, for good reason.
The RWSLs were on. You can see around :08s on the right side of the screen, red lights and green lights (taxiway centerlines). The red lights go off at ~:08s mark, just before the plane gets to the intersection. Which is what they are made to do.

The reds turn off just before a plane gets to an intersection, so traffic can start moving with the assumption it'll be clear before the traffic gets up to the actual runway. This is to minimize crossing delays.

I'm guessing this could change and they revise the timing to not drop the reds until after the plane has left the intersection.

But, that really doesn't matter in this case. ARFF had instruction from ATC to cross. The lights would be an indicator to not cross, but if you're told you can, it's a trust but verify situation.
 
Investigators said it remains unclear who was performing the ground controller role—responsible for managing aircraft and vehicle movement on taxiways
Granted it is something they are going to want to clarify, but it means nothing in the big scheme of things. It really doesn't matter if the Local Controller was also handling Ground or someone else was handling Ground. The fire truck would NOT be cleared onto the Rwy without an okay from Local. Regretfully the buck stops there.

As for "Fox Entertainment", I stopped watching them years ago. Way to many of their stories just didn't add up and it took two seconds to discover the facts did add up. Years ago they had a pretty good "news" team, but they all either got canned or left when real news went out the window. (Doesn't matter if you lean right or left, but it should matter to you to get real facts.)
 
So really it’s common sense that hiring someone with previous ATC experience can not only reduce training times, reduce cost, but fill much needed ATC slots faster than someone who doesn’t know the difference between a C150 and a C550.
Agree, but take it further. Applicants that meet an established "aeronautically qualified" standard should be in the fast lane as well.

I was an off-the street hire with no previous ATC experience, just a commercial pilot certificate and an instrument rating. The ink was still wet on both, so I had no significant pilot experience either.

The OKC schoolhouse was closed at the time, so they sent me direct to FNT. A couple weeks classroom training, then up to the cab for OJT, followed by training in the tracon. Full FPL status took around eighteen months, and after two-and-a-half years gaining experience at FNT, on to ORD tower. Arrived at ORD in January and was checked out in November.

Note, I'm not claiming that just because the applicant is a pilot, that means he can make it as a controller. But those that do have the aptitude can be certified and on the boards a lot faster than the current system allows.
 
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But, that really doesn't matter in this case. ARFF had instruction from ATC to cross. The lights would be an indicator to not cross, but if you're told you can, it's a trust but verify situation.
That’s not what the training documents show. They are told not to cross a red and to verbalize the situation to the tower. We have not heard that in the audio that we have access to.

In this case the timing seems pretty moot - the truck was already on the go beyond the hold short by the time the RWSL turned off. Had they waited to cross the hold until after they shut off, the time to accelerate and cover the distance from there to the wingtips would have likely precluded the accident.
 
An interesting note is that the flight crew was arrested & spent 24 hours in jail.

In the early 2000s I was assisting with a chemical plant decommissioning outside of Paris. We had a chemical release. The plant manager at the time said that if they had another one he was going to be jailed. That was just the procedure. Sure enough, we had another incident a few weeks later and he spent 24 hours in jail. It didn’t help that employees were losing jobs and there were strikes/demonstrations. Seemed like no big deal to him.
 
If the guy who had the OE and crash had to keep working, there weren't enough people in the tower.
We know there weren't enough controllers in the tower. They were not there, because they do not exist. It is the same situation in every FAA tower in the country, along with every TRACON and ever ARTCC. Most "ATC Delays" are either due to, or worsened by, staffing.

One of them yes, but not necessarily both. PF is going to be eyes outside, but the PM may have a lot of other stuff going on.
That's not how it works. Under those conditions, night, in rain, and with an approach speed around 140kts, the PF will be on the instruments until relatively close to minimums with only occasional scans out the window. His goal is to keep a stable approach, on speed, until the DA. At some point near DA, it changes to primarily visual with frequent cross-checks of the instruments and that continues until the initiation of the flare. You pay very little attention to aircraft or vehicles holding short of the runway because there frequently are airplanes and vehicles holding short of the runway.

I am not aware of any other accidents where the controller wasn't pulled immediately, though one could presume Comair 5191 was the same.
With only two controllers in the cab, if you pull one of them then you have only one controller left to do everything which, at that point, involved spending a lot of time on phones and land lines coordinating with all of the stake holders in the emergency response. With the airport now closed, it was the Local controller position that had the lower workload.

At the angle they were crossing, the plane was coming from the blind side of a traditional truck, and the plane may have been still in the air when they looked and thus above the roofline of the truck.
In that truck, the driver sits in the middle so there was no blind side (or there were two, depending on how you look at it). The problem is that the airplane would have been well behind his shoulder, due to the angle of the taxiway, and he might not have turned far enough to see it. Particularly true since he had just been cleared to cross and did not expect to see an airplane at less than 100' above the ground. Confirmation bias is a real threat and likely also contributed with him missing the red RWSL.

If the plane was in the landing roll when the call was made, there may have been in-cockpit callouts that drowned out the radio.
The airplane was one second away from descending through 100' RA when the trucks were cleared to cross. That was when the pilots had a chance to recognize the controller's error and initiate a go-around. Their opportunity was short-lived as the ability to complete a go-around, and climb above the crossing trucks, lasted only a few seconds. At 100' RA, the pilots were focused on their task of landing the airplane on a short, wet runway, which made it less likely that they'd process a radio call, that wasn't directed to them, quickly enough to understand the threat.

While I agree that would be cutting it close and likely a mistake, 10 seconds should be enough time for a fire truck to cross a runway.
No, the clearance for the trucks to cross was most certainly a mistake--the mistake that started the accident sequence. It was given as the CRJ was reaching the 100' RA point and, to be legal, the trucks would have to have been clear of the runway by the time the CRJ reached the runway threshold (TCH 54')--about 5 seconds.
 
All this hold short, look first, who’s eyes were where… is startle response stuff. Fun to argue, relatively moot.

It’s a fact aircrew don’t train for this sort of incursion. Over 20 part 121 airline courses (full courses, not recurrent), NEVER did I get trained for that.

It’s a fact firemen don’t drive a simulator to ensure they know they gotta stop at little red flashy lights even if they’re told to go.

I honestly don’t know if controllers are put in a sim like a sinking submarine and just task saturated to failure so they could recognize it when it happens… but they should and I doubt they are.

Train to those scenarios above, and we might not have to address the root cause. But actually we will, because even though that training might prevent this, the overloading situation would escalate because we had been successful at that level, and eventually we have an even worse outcome.

If you don’t address root cause, all this downrange training is just a band aid. But in this case there isn’t even that down range training, just a bunch of “well they were told this and that”, “pilots should look out the window more”, ATC can’t stop a unsafe situation, they must keep the airport open… we got lucky our eyes got opened by this rather than another Tenerife.
 
I honestly don’t know if controllers are put in a sim like a sinking submarine and just task saturated to failure so they could recognize it when it happens… but they should and I doubt they are.
The FAA Academy in OKC has tower simulators, as do some of the collegiate ATC programs. An increasing number of towers have their own, customized simulators. AUS was the first. I know ATL is another. The goal was to have 95 facilities so equipped by the end of 2025. They have exceeded that number now.

LGA is one of the airports with a tower simulator.
 
In the early 2000s I was assisting with a chemical plant decommissioning outside of Paris. We had a chemical release. The plant manager at the time said that if they had another one he was going to be jailed. That was just the procedure. Sure enough, we had another incident a few weeks later and he spent 24 hours in jail. It didn’t help that employees were losing jobs and there were strikes/demonstrations. Seemed like no big deal to him.

This is a pretty typical practice in many countries. Authorities will detain anyone with significant responsibilities at the time of the incident: pilots, plant managers, drivers, safety officers, etc. When I went through safety management training, it was explained to me as an investigation control mechanism: anyone with a certain level of responsibility in preventing and/or perpetuating a safety event would be detained so they could be interviewed and not flee. It didn't mean you were guilty of something at the moment, although other countries do have much higher accountability thresholds for local management than we experience in the US. See: the Embraer pilots and the GOL crash in the aughts.

Somewhere at home I still have the card we were supposed to carry with the numbers of our attorneys in certain countries so we could call them if we got jailed in a scenario just like that.
 
That is something to remember for everyone that was involved in this accident, the entire accident chain of events was 10-20 seconds. We have had almost two days now to think about and pick apart each persons actions during those seconds, and all decide that "we" would have done something different, with the knowledge of what the end result was. 10 seconds of inattentiveness, complacency, mental overload, or just plain reaction time for the controller, the firefighters, and the pilots. The world is a dangerous place.

Fate is the hunter...
This. Systemic failures start years before the event, but precipitate in seconds, which removes almost all margin for error. Operational failures precipitate over a much larger window, giving more room for incident avoidance. While you can't classify every accident into this structure, it is alarming how many you can.

It's one of the most fascinating parts of any sort of incident analysis. Look at Colorado Springs and Aliquippa 737 crashes. Those failures were put in motion through systemic issues (equipment design, certification, maintenance procedures, pilot training and awareness) that started almost a decade before the incidents in question.

What has me most interesting in this accident is the confluence of stakeholders with immediate operational responsibility AND the structural events at play. At least four people made decisions or were in a position to avoid the incident (two pilots, one controller, one ARFF truck operator). As we've established above, the likelihood the pilots could have had the situational awareness to prevent this accident is low; data from the black boxes and analysis of flight training procedures will probably eliminate this. The other two, operational issues (airport emergency, task saturation, time of day, weather) and systemic issues (training, staffing levels) all will likely play a role.

As a call out -- thanks to all of you with direct operational experience for your contributions. There are some really golden posts in this thread.
 
This is a pretty typical practice in many countries. Authorities will detain anyone with significant responsibilities at the time of the incident: pilots, plant managers, drivers, safety officers, etc.

We have a similar thing in the US. A "material witness" may be arrested and detained until a sworn deposition is obtained, if they're considered a flight risk.
 
The two things that stand out to me: he cleared "and company" to cross. There was a cavalcade of vehicles, it looked like ten of them. He didn't clear one truck.

Secondly, if the pilots saw the trucks moving towards the runway (and I would have to think it likely they did) they also had to believe they hadn't been cleared to cross.
 
Granted it is something they are going to want to clarify, but it means nothing in the big scheme of things. It really doesn't matter if the Local Controller was also handling Ground or someone else was handling Ground. The fire truck would NOT be cleared onto the Rwy without an okay from Local. Regretfully the buck stops there.

As for "Fox Entertainment", I stopped watching them years ago. Way to many of their stories just didn't add up and it took two seconds to discover the facts did add up. Years ago they had a pretty good "news" team, but they all either got canned or left when real news went out the window. (Doesn't matter if you lean right or left, but it should matter to you to get real facts.)
Who offered any source material from "Fox Entertainment"?

If the person who gave the wrong authority to proceed means nothing to you, that's fine. I would like to figure out who it was for training purposes and to relieve others from responsibility.
 
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