CRJ collides into Fire engine on runway at La Guardia 3/22/26

Runway Status Lights
  • If an Air Traffic Control clearance is in conflict with the Runway Entrance Lights, do not cross over the red lights. Contact Air Traffic Control and advise that you are stopped due to red lights. (ex.: "Orlando Ground, Ops 2 is holding short of runway 36 Left at Echo due to red lights").
My understanding was the lights were red?
So on the Fire Truck?
 
Runway Status Lights
  • If an Air Traffic Control clearance is in conflict with the Runway Entrance Lights, do not cross over the red lights. Contact Air Traffic Control and advise that you are stopped due to red lights. (ex.: "Orlando Ground, Ops 2 is holding short of runway 36 Left at Echo due to red lights").
My understanding was the lights were red?
So on the Fire Truck?
Sure…no need for the controller to give proper instructions, no need for the pilots to look out the ****ing windshield. It’s all on the fire truck. 100%.

Good thing blame is more important than safety. :rolleyes:
 
I find it remarkable that there was no fire after impact. Just a split second difference and a wing would have clipped the truck, ripped open and likely more people would have died. Rip to those pilots.
 
Not sure what the pilots could have done. From looking at the video it was <4 seconds from the truck entering the runway to the collision.
Steering at that speed is likely limited so veering one direction or the other would probably have killed more people. Most of us would probably panic stomp a rudder pedal.
 
Sure…no need for the controller to give proper instructions, no need for the pilots to look out the ****ing windshield. It’s all on the fire truck. 100%.

Good thing blame is more important than safety. :rolleyes:
Lot of things line up in this accident. Why did the Boeing 737 reject the take off not once but twice? Blame will come out that's what inquiries require.
I will wait for the preliminary report before any more comments.




no more.
 
The ATC hiring pipeline destruction goes back three admins. The qualification based testing and entry to ATC was tossed aside and a cultural and diversity metric was instituted. People in the training pipeline were removed and deleted from the qualification based program, and the cultural and diversity candidates took the place of those in the prev pipe. Most of those removed filed a lawsuit which languished in fed court for a DECADE. I think thay finally just gave up and got other careers. That process has been a long term train wrecking into a dumpster fire where the delay had a long leash affect on qualified empl making it to the various positions like tower, and appr where the cream of the talent resides.
 
Lot of things line up in this accident. Why did the Boeing 737 reject the take off not once but twice? Blame will come out that's what inquiries require.
I will wait for the preliminary report before any more comments.
Can you say more about this?
 
The ATC hiring pipeline destruction goes back three admins. The qualification based testing and entry to ATC was tossed aside and a cultural and diversity metric was instituted. People in the training pipeline were removed and deleted from the qualification based program, and the cultural and diversity candidates took the place of those in the prev pipe. Most of those removed filed a lawsuit which languished in fed court for a DECADE. I think thay finally just gave up and got other careers. That process has been a long term train wrecking into a dumpster fire where the delay had a long leash affect on qualified empl making it to the various positions like tower, and appr where the cream of the talent resides.
Got anything using actual data to back that up?

This evaluation indicates no measurable impact to safety:

What actually has blocked the training pipeline is at least one Senator from Oklahoma, that somehow thinks everyone wants to live, train and teach in OKC. He has repeated blocked efforts to create a second, desperately needed, training facility elsewhere.
 
Legit asking: Is it they can't certify people quick enough, or that people in this occupational set don't get paid enough to make living in the geographic locations these jobs tether them to worth their while?
It takes 3-4 years to certify a controller.

Controllers are fairly well paid if you look at it on the surface, but it's not a 9-5. It's a difficult, high pressure job if you're at a busy facility. Nearly every facility is understaffed, some of them critically so. As a result, many have forced overtime and have difficulty getting vacation. Some facilities rotate controllers through the clock every week which is horrible for your health, not to mention an easy way to cause fatigue.

Finally, the controllers' pay hasn't kept up with inflation for quite a while now. Unfortunately, I think this is gonna get worse before it gets better.

The FAA Academy in OKC is running at maximum capacity right now, and has been since 2024 as a result of the FAA Reauthorization Act of 2024.
...and it's still not enough.

I'm pretty sure BNA is down to two controllers overnight, including both tower and TRACON functions.
This wasn't overnight, it was during the evening push, at a time they're supposed to have 14 controllers on duty.

The LGA tower controller was only working tower positions.
Yabut... This is LGA. Busy, crossing runway operations with anticipated separation. This is NOT a facility where there should be a single controller on duty without limiting traffic. Maybe if they can go down to a single runway having a couple of certified controllers on site would be OK (gotta take a break now and then!) but with the traffic in that hour that was posted earlier, it seems completely irresponsible of the FAA to have only one controller working.

Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy is disputing there was only one controller in the tower last night.
I highly doubt there was only 1 as well
Well I’d say there’s a good chance a CIC was there. Either plugged in listening or doing admin work in the background.
Why didn't they catch it then?

And why, after the accident, was the distraught controller, who said "I messed up" on frequency, forced to keep working for another hour? That points to the "nobody else was available" being correct.

The ATC hiring pipeline destruction goes back three admins.
More than that. It started when the controllers who came in after the PATCO strike and firings in 1981 started becoming eligible for retirement in the early 2000s, and it accelerated through the rest of the Bush admin as they did retire. AOPA, NATCA, NBAA, IATA, and others were sounding the alarm back then, and it's done nothing but get worse ever since.
 
I wonder if his initial call to Frontier 4195 to stop was supposed to be for Truck 1.
It seems to me that FF4195 would have needed to stop pretty soon to make way for the ARFF traffic about to cross in front of them on delta.
 
The ATC hiring pipeline destruction goes back three admins. The qualification based testing and entry to ATC was tossed aside and a cultural and diversity metric was instituted. People in the training pipeline were removed and deleted from the qualification based program, and the cultural and diversity candidates took the place of those in the prev pipe. Most of those removed filed a lawsuit which languished in fed court for a DECADE. I think thay finally just gave up and got other careers. That process has been a long term train wrecking into a dumpster fire where the delay had a long leash affect on qualified empl making it to the various positions like tower, and appr where the cream of the talent resides
Ohhh, you don' stepped in it now. The Admins don't like this kind of talk.
 
Legit asking: Is it they can't certify people quick enough, or that people in this occupational set don't get paid enough to make living in the geographic locations these jobs tether them to worth their while?
They have increased starting pay but it still isn't great. It's based on the government GS pay scales. After a while, it's pretty good with government benefits and pension.

I thought active runways were always controlled by Tower not Ground.
Normal operation at LGA is for one Local controller to control both runways and one Ground controller to control all ground movements. I think they may have a separate helicopter frequency and, of course, there's Clearance Delivery, which is often combined with Ground when workload allows. It is common, during less busy times at all facilities, to combine Ground and Tower onto a single controller who may, or may not put all traffic on the Local frequency.

Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy is disputing there was only one controller in the tower last night.
Nobody said that there was only one controller on duty, just that there was only one controller working both the ground and local positions. The other controller, after the accident, was probably very busy coordinating emergency services and working with TRACON and the airport authorities on land lines.

My understanding was the lights were red? So on the Fire Truck?
That isn't yet confirmed. We know that RWSL were installed at the intersection in question but they have not yet confirmed that they were working. From what we know so far, the situation should have been such that the lights would have been on.

no need for the pilots to look out the ****ing windshield
Very little that the pilots could have done. By the time they could have seen the truck(s) crossing the runway it was likely too late to go around. Their only chance to stop the chain would have been to hear the controller clear the trucks to cross but they were on very short final at the time and were pretty busy. It would have been easy to miss with very little time to put it together and realize that they needed to go-around. It's another link in the chain but a weak one.

I wonder if his initial call to Frontier 4195 to stop was supposed to be for Truck 1.
I don't think so. I think it was because Frontier was about to cross the path of the trucks exiting the runway.

Why did the Boeing 737 reject the take off not once but twice?
Not that unusual. After a reject, the Captain calls dispatch and the Mx control and discusses the problem. Mx would likely have a reset procedure. If everything then tests normal, and brake energy allows, another takeoff is attempted. I beleive that the rejects were due to a bleed air system caution light (there are several).

It takes 3-4 years to certify a controller.
More for LGA, of course.

This wasn't overnight, it was during the evening push, at a time they're supposed to have 14 controllers on duty.
The ones I'm talking about were. BNA ATCT closed for at least two nights. Each closure was 4 or 5 hours in length.

There have been other ground stops, due to staffing, during the day but they weren't ATCT closures.

This is NOT a facility where there should be a single controller on duty without limiting traffic.
I don't think the traffic level was high enough to hit such a trigger. The workload increased suddenly because of the emergency declaration and need for the CFR equipment to respond. None of that were "operations" that would be counted nor could be predicted.

it seems completely irresponsible of the FAA to have only one controller working.
Very unlikely that there was only one controller working at the facility. There was one controller working both Local and Ground.

Lots of others things going on in the Tower after the accident that any other controller on duty would have been very busy handling.
 
On the note of controller shortages, based on the prerequisites I bet you eliminate somewhere around 90% (just a wild guess) of able-bodied individuals who might be interested in taking an ATC job. Me, for example. I'm 44 so I'm immediately out of the running. Even though I've spent a 26 year career running radios in high stress environments. Not to the level of ATC, of course but I think I could certify up to TRACON given the opportunity but I'd happily staff my local Class D Tower.

Add to that - if the fellas over at Opposing Bases are correct, for quite some time candidates would apply to the hiring process and not hear back for many, many months. Sometimes over a year. That is not conducive to building a candidate pool in which to hire from.
 
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candidates would apply to the hiring process and not hear back for many, many months. Sometimes over a year. That is not conducive to building a candidate pool in which to hire from.
It's not, but it's common for government jobs.
 
The ATC hiring pipeline destruction goes back three admins. The qualification based testing and entry to ATC was tossed aside and a cultural and diversity metric was instituted. People in the training pipeline were removed and deleted from the qualification based program, and the cultural and diversity candidates took the place of those in the prev pipe. Most of those removed filed a lawsuit which languished in fed court for a DECADE. I think thay finally just gave up and got other careers. That process has been a long term train wrecking into a dumpster fire where the delay had a long leash affect on qualified empl making it to the various positions like tower, and appr where the cream of the talent resides.
The DEI qualification quiz, had nothing to do with diversity or equity. It featured questions like:
The number of college credit hours you've taken in Art/Music/Dance/Drama is:
-A. Did not attend college (worth 0 points)
-B. Earned 0 credit hours in this area of study (worth 5 points)
-C. 1-6 credit hours (worth 0 points)
-D. 7-12 credit hours (worth 4 points)
-E. 13 or more credit hours (worth 1 point)
or only giving points if you said your worst subject in high school was science. Or only giving points if you said your worst subject in college was history/political science.

It had nothing to do with cultural and diversity metrics, and everything to do with the fact that some people in charge of the FAA allowed the creation of arbitrary quiz, to randomly eliminate possible candidates.



Not only that, but the bottleneck for ATC hiring has not been in the number of interested candidates, but the number of training centers(one). This meant that as more ATC retires, and we don't increase training capacity to make up for it, we end up with ATC working 6 day work weeks, controlling too much airspace at once. Please stop trying to make the ATC hiring a identity politics issue, because its not.
 
My understanding was the lights were red?
So on the Fire Truck?
I haven't had a chance to go listen to the full tape. But I believe the Controller cleared the FT to cross the runway, realized what he did and was trying to say Stop, don't go onto the Rwy. But I'm wondering if the timeline and videos will show the truck started onto the Rwy when it was cleared to do so, then slowed or stopped when the Controller started to give the second clearance. It will be a shame **IF** the word "stop" was used and they did slow or stop, but I could see why they would.

Condolences to the families...
 
Sure…no need for the controller to give proper instructions, no need for the pilots to look out the ****ing windshield. It’s all on the fire truck. 100%.
I can almost guarantee the CRJ guys were looking out the windshield. It would have been damned impossible to make out the fire engine. There's just too much lights out there at night to differentiate one vehicle for another. Decades back an airliner landed on top of a position-and-hold plane at night and research shows it was pretty much invisible.

There's video out there of the actual collision. Jazz was on the ground and rolling out fast when the truck entered the runway. Doubt they could do anything at that.
If I'm looking at things right, the RWSL was red and turned green just before plane enters the shot.
 
If I am cleared to land and I see all those emergency lights adjacent to the runway, I'm on the radio asking questions. Not saying the CRJ pilots are in error, but I am more alert and attentive and paying very close attention.
 
Hmmmm, I seem to have bunched some panties with my revelation on the change from the job description function merit based metric to the biodiversity evaluation criteria for ATC candidates. Well, prescuse me all to hell. I can find(make up) any kind of study I want to prove, to a sixth sigma that this change had no effect on controller quality. And you have to accept it because it comes from an unimpeachable source! lolz...
As for the PATCO history I chose not to addess it because prior to the change in testing for the ATC candidates, things were moving at a decent pace. The flush out of those already part way through, to be replaced by the new and biodiversity improved candidate starts would likely have filled the gaps fairly well.
Back to our reg scheduled program.
 
From the "Vehicle operators training" section of the FAA website:

Whenever a vehicle operator observes the red Runway Entrance Lights illuminated, that operator will stop at the runway hold short line and remain stopped.

Vehicle operators may observe several cycles of the Runway Entrance Lights turning on and off while waiting for an Air Traffic Control clearance.

DO NOT proceed when the Runway Entrance Lights have extinguished without an Air Traffic Control clearance. Runway Status Lights verifies an Air Traffic Control clearance, it DOES NOT substitute for an Air Traffic Control clearance.

If an Air Traffic Control clearance is in conflict with the Runway Entrance Lights, do not cross over the red lights. Contact Air Traffic Control and advise that you are stopped due to red lights. (ex.: "Orlando Ground, Ops 2 is holding short of runway 36 Left at Echo due to red lights").

If the vehicle is entering the runway (past the runway hold short marking) and the Runway Entrance Lights illuminate, the vehicle should clear the runway immediately and notify the Air Traffic Control tower.

Fire truck at fault....
 
I haven't had a chance to go listen to the full tape.
Most of the audio that we're hearing now has been trimmed to remove the silences between transmissions and/or unrelated transmissions. Will need to hear, or read, the unedited audio to know the timing.

If I'm looking at things right, the RWSL was red and turned green just before plane enters the shot.
Turned green?

If I am cleared to land and I see all those emergency lights adjacent to the runway, I'm on the radio asking questions.
It is common for emergency vehicles to operate on the airport surface with their lights on. They use them as anti-collision lights and they almost always are/have been instructed to give way to aircraft. The lights alone do not indicate that they are responding to an emergency as it would out on the street.
 
Turned green?
Not my post, but the RWSL are installed in addition to the green taxiway centerline lights (they’re on the other side of the taxiway centerline). In a few frames at the beginning of the crash video, you can see both sets of lights on. The red lights turn off about three seconds prior to the Jazz flight entering the intersection, as they should, leaving only the green lights.
 
One of the stupids checking back in. Its reported that there was more than one controller onsite at the time. Also evidence that the controller who cleared the plane to land and the trucks to cross was still on the job and actively moving metal 20 minutes after the crash. Responded to another pilot who said "that looks bad", with 'I know...'.

I would surmise that a controller who has just had a crash is removed from the tube ASAP? I Find some incongruety in the case here. Where was the backup/alternate? Its not like I don't trust the people in charge.
 
Got anything using actual data to back that up?

This evaluation indicates no measurable impact to safety:

What actually has blocked the training pipeline is at least one Senator from Oklahoma, that somehow thinks everyone wants to live, train and teach in OKC. He has repeated blocked efforts to create a second, desperately needed, training facility elsewhere.
Damn, it is just common sense … if you prioritize anything other than 100% pure performance ( be it gender, race , hair color , whatever ) by definition you are sacrificing quality since performance is no longer your only guiding principle.
 
Most certainly. That said, combining local and ground on the mid shift has been going on forever. This isn't the fist time this has contributed to an accident; the Lexington Comair 5191 accident was partially linked to a single controller in the cab of an early morning departure that took off from the wrong runway.
And you never cross a runway without LOOOKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Hmmmm, I seem to have bunched some panties with my revelation on the change from the job description function merit based metric to the biodiversity evaluation criteria for ATC candidates. Well, prescuse me all to hell. I can find(make up) any kind of study I want to prove, to a sixth sigma that this change had no effect on controller quality. And you have to accept it because it comes from an unimpeachable source! lolz...
As for the PATCO history I chose not to addess it because prior to the change in testing for the ATC candidates, things were moving at a decent pace. The flush out of those already part way through, to be replaced by the new and biodiversity improved candidate starts would likely have filled the gaps fairly well.
Back to our reg scheduled program.
Biodiversity ... so non-human? I'm all for that. Perhaps automate vastly more ATC. It's a simple problem compared to many.
 
In some towers ground control has the vehicles but has to get approval from local (tower) first. If you’re by yourself then you control it all obviously but not necessarily on tower frequencies

In the audio, the fire truck addresses “LaGuardia tower”. I feel safe in assuming that he was on tower frequency.

I find it amazing aircraft hit absorbed that much energy without a more significant change to its direction.
 
If I am cleared to land and I see all those emergency lights adjacent to the runway, I'm on the radio asking questions. Not saying the CRJ pilots are in error, but I am more alert and attentive and paying very close attention.
How are a bunch of emergency lights stopped at a taxiway intersection materially different from a bunch of planes lined up at a taxiway intersection? Do you ask questions about every plane holding short of your runway when you land?

All those emergency lights were stationary until after touchdown. By the time the emergency lights moved to encroach onto the runway, the landing traffic was committed. What do you think the pilots should have done differently?
 
Am I seeing this right? It looks like the fire truck was on a dead run, not stopped, at the beginning of the video and turned to avoid the collision as it entered the runway. If so, how did the RJ's nose get so far to the left to hit it unless also trying to avoid the collision by going behind the approaching truck? :dunno:
 
Am I seeing this right? It looks like the fire truck was on a dead run, not stopped, at the beginning of the video and turned to avoid the collision as it entered the runway. If so, how did the RJ's nose get so far to the left to hit it unless also trying to avoid the collision by going behind the approaching truck? :dunno:
Maybe, but the turn could be an alignment with the taxiway as it continues slightly offset on the other side of the runway.
 
Am I seeing this right? It looks like the fire truck was on a dead run, not stopped, at the beginning of the video and turned to avoid the collision as it entered the runway. If so, how did the RJ's nose get so far to the left to hit it unless also trying to avoid the collision by going behind the approaching truck? :dunno:

To me the plane looked like it tracked straight down the runway.
Taxi way Delta intersection is angled to the runway.
 
How are a bunch of emergency lights stopped at a taxiway intersection materially different from a bunch of planes lined up at a taxiway intersection? Do you ask questions about every plane holding short of your runway when you land?

All those emergency lights were stationary until after touchdown. By the time the emergency lights moved to encroach onto the runway, the landing traffic was committed. What do you think the pilots should have done differently?
It has been a while since I have flown, so take my analysis here with a grain of salt. These points do not necessarily indict the crew behavior, but instead lay out another set of holes in the Swiss cheese.

1) I agree with respect to situational awareness. If you are looking outside of the cockpit, and you hear the emergency vehicles being dispatched, and you don't see them moving, it's not unreasonable to consider that the pilots observed that the vehicles were stationary and assume they would not move. Hearing that the truck has permission to cross doesn't necessarily change your awareness -- how often do we hear "position and hold" or similar statements that imply you will have someone on the active close to when you are on the active?
2) I think it is reasonable to assume that the pilots were deep in the flare. By the time they exited the flare, the accident was likely unavoidable.
3) While it wasn't exactly MVFR at the time of landing, the pilots were more likely to have their attention in the cockpit (see #2), either by virtue of the sightline (nose up attitude) or scanning instruments. While it is reasonable to expect that a pilot would have their scan moving in and out of the cockpit, or the PNF focusing outside while the PF was focused inside, it is not unreasonable to believe that they did not have their attention outside of the cockpit at that phase of flight.
 
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