CRJ collides into Fire engine on runway at La Guardia 3/22/26

FlightmechH3

FlightmechH3

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FlightmechH3
Mass casualty event
 

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Sounds like ATC was allowing a fire truck to cross the runway while a CRJ900 was landing.

Update. Looks like 2 dead, 3 critical, many other injuries.
 

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Reading X. Two dead were the pilot and FO.

Weren’t the fire trucks responding to an emergency, a fire on a United flight after two aborted takeoffs?

My understanding, if there’s an emergency, nobody does anything.
 
bflynn said:
Reading X. Two dead were the pilot and FO.

Weren’t the fire trucks responding to an emergency, a fire on a United flight after two aborted takeoffs?

My understanding, if there’s an emergency, nobody does anything.
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Yes, it's generally protocol to close the airport whilst emergency equipment is in motion. This is a sad one.
 
AKiss20 said:
What’s the bet that the controller had been overworked and the cab was understaffed? Seems to be an incredibly common thread lately.

This looks a bad one. Jeez
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Most certainly. That said, combining local and ground on the mid shift has been going on forever. This isn't the fist time this has contributed to an accident; the Lexington Comair 5191 accident was partially linked to a single controller in the cab of an early morning departure that took off from the wrong runway.
 
As a former FF (not ARFF) and pilot I would imagine that there are blind spots in the cab of the fire truck and they depend on ground controllers to clear them across runways. If not a 90 degree crossing the truck body or cab roof behind and/or background light could make it difficult if not physically difficult or impossible to see the aircraft. Speculation but with a reasonable reason why the FFs may not have been able to see the incoming aircraft. Plus if responding to an aircraft fire more likely to believe airport is closed. Quite possibly lack of coordination amongst all parties involved as things were happening fast. Very sad but somewhat very fortunate that this wasn’t much worse. Lessons will be learned and please remember to always verify all instructions from tower on ground movement as well as in the air.
 
diabolical said:
As a former FF (not ARFF) and pilot I would imagine that there are blind spots in the cab of the fire truck and they depend on ground controllers to clear them across runways. If not a 90 degree crossing the truck body or cab roof behind and/or background light could make it difficult if not physically difficult or impossible to see the aircraft. Speculation but with a reasonable reason why the FFs may not have been able to see the incoming aircraft. Plus if responding to an aircraft fire more likely to believe airport is closed. Quite possibly lack of coordination amongst all parties involved as things were happening fast. Very sad but somewhat very fortunate that this wasn’t much worse. Lessons will be learned and please remember to always verify all instructions from tower on ground movement as well as in the air.
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ARFF trucks have the driver in the center, and often only have a crew of one. Also, as the point of collision was just beyond the point of touchdown, it’s possible the CRJ was still in the flair prior to touchdown, making the landing light beam not directly shining at the truck, possibly making it appear farther away or even lost in the sea of airfield lighting.

I suspect the tower controller thought the CRJ had already landed when he cleared Truck 1 across, quickly catching his mistake but was too late.
 
I was considering why the pilots didn't hear the trucks cleared to cross, but that was probably done on the ground frequency, which they weren't monitoring.
 
Brad Z said:
ARFF trucks have the driver in the center, and often only have a crew of one. Also, as the point of collision was just beyond the point of touchdown, it’s possible the CRJ was still in the flair prior to touchdown, making the landing light beam not directly shining at the truck, possibly making it appear farther away or even lost in the sea of airfield lighting.

I suspect the tower controller thought the CRJ had already landed when he cleared Truck 1 across, quickly catching his mistake but was too late.
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Saw a report the CRJ was going about 30mph at the point of impact, so not sure it was "just beyond the point of touchdown." Seeing the aftermath I would've guessed closer to 100mph, and maybe that report was wrong.
 
T Bird said:
Saw a report the CRJ was going about 30mph at the point of impact, so not sure it was "just beyond the point of touchdown." Seeing the aftermath I would've guessed closer to 100mph, and maybe that report was wrong.
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That report is incorrect. Landing on runway 4 and colliding at Delta, there’s no way it was going 24 kits at time of collision. That was a misuse of ADS-B data.
 
Looks like the point of impact was at Echo. That would be about 4000 feet from the touchdown zone...From where the truck was coming, the CRJ would have been coming from behind and to the right of the driver.....bad sighting line in a lot of those trucks.
 
Landing clearance is right at the 5:04 mark on the Live ATC. They are cleared to land, number two.

LGA: Jazz 646, good morning
646: With you for ILS 4 for Jazz 646
LGA: Jazz 646 Number 2 cleared to land
646: Cleared to land number 2 Jazz 646

Lots of other traffic for while until about 6:20 when you hear:
T7: Laguardia tower from Truck 7.

This goes unanswered until 6:40
LGA: The vehicle that needed to cross the runway

At 6:55
T1: Truck 1 and company, Laguardia tower
LGA: Truck 1 and company
T1: Truck 1 and company, Laguardia tower. Request to cross 4 at delta.
LGA: Truck 1 and company cross 4 at delta
T1: Truck 1 and company crossing 4 at delta

A few seconds later at 7:10

LGA: Truck 1 stop stop stop. Stop Truck 1. Stop. Stop

silence until 7:43
LGA: [unintelligible] 3 go around. Runway heading 2000. Jazz 646

[Multiple transmissions] but I believe Truck 7 (female voice the one that initially called in was reporting the crash)

LGA: Vehicles are responding to you now.

The fundamental truth is. If a pilot screws up, the pilot dies. If ATC screws up, the pilot dies.
 
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Craig said:
Looks like the point of impact was at Echo. That would be about 4000 feet from the touchdown zone...From where the truck was coming, the CRJ would have been coming from behind and to the right of the driver.....bad sighting line in a lot of those trucks.
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The trucks were crossing at Delta and that is where the collison happened. Echo is where the wreckage stopped.
 
flyingron said:
LGA: T1 stop stop stop. Stop Truck 1. Stop. Stop
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Between situations like these and the more common confirmation/expectation bias, I always ask the controller to confirm I'm still clear to cross a runway before going over the line. And look both ways before crossing, maneuvering the aircraft to make sure I get a good view.

I understand the fire truck's visibility might not be the best, but slowing down and pointing the cab both ways before crossing was still an option. I wonder if it's the same case of mission tunnel vision thst gets EMS drivers into accidents at intersections.
 
If a crash truck/Emergency vehicles were going to cross an active runway, why wasn't the airport shut down at that point? Make the firetruck hold until everyone stops?
 

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flyingron said:
Landing clearance is right at the 5:04 mark on the Live ATC. They are cleared to land, number two.

LGA: Jazz 646, good morning
646: With you for ILS 4 for Jazz 646
LGA: Jazz 646 Number 2 cleared to land
646: Cleared to land number 2 Jazz 646

Lots of other traffic for while until about 6:20 when you hear:
T7: Laguardia tower from Truck 7.

This goes unanswered until 6:40
LGA: The vehicle that needed to cross the runway

At 6:55
T1: Truck 1 and company, Laguardia tower
LGA: Truck 1 and company
T1: Truck 1 and company, Laguardia tower. Request to cross 4 at delta.
LGA: Truck 1 and company cross 4 at delta
T1: Truck 1 and company crossing 4 at delta

A few seconds later at 7:10

LGA: T1 stop stop stop. Stop Truck 1. Stop. Stop

silence until 7:43
LGA: [unintelligible] 3 go around. Runway heading 2000. Jazz 646

[Multiple transmissions] but I believe Truck 7 (female voice the one that initially called in was reporting the crash)

LGA: Vehicles are responding to you now.

The fundamental truth is. If a pilot screws up, the pilot dies. If ATC screws up, the pilot dies.
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Just brutal to hear and read. Condolences to all.
 
Black eye for controllers. Condolences for the crew. Working alone sucks. Had one close call on a mid shift myself. Had a crew working on the barrier one night with the runway lights off. After a couple hours, I had a customs/border control Citation call to land. I remembered to turn on the lights but forgot about the barrier crew. First, they didn’t usually work at night and secondly, they usually don’t take over 20 minutes to do what they have to do. Bottom line, I was fighting sleep and forgot about them. After the Citation landed, they asked, “tower, did you know there was a truck right next to the runway where we touched down?” My heart sank, and I realized what I had done. Fortunately for me, when I turned on the lights, the barrier crew saw what was about to happen and exited the runway on their own.

34 years as a controller and that was the closest I’ve ever come to killing somebody. It still haunts me to this day. Looking forward to retirement (again) in December.
 
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Tools said:
What’s sad is that this WAS predicted… so now the question is, are “they” gonna start operating SAFELY instead of “efficiently”?

Undermanned should only affect throughput, not safety.
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Well not just understaffed, but overworked when on position. Expecting a controller to work that amount of traffic flawlessly day in and day out, is unrealistic. My brother is retired ATC and he’s amazed that they get away with their poor phraseology and even the unprofessionalism there. But, when you’re that busy, it’s not always gonna be by the book.
 
FlightmechH3 said:
If a crash truck/Emergency vehicles were going to cross an active runway, why wasn't the airport shut down at that point? Make the firetruck hold until everyone stops?
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I think that will be a question the investigators ask. That said, Ops vehicles and Fire vehicles cross taxiways and runways non-emergently all of the time without closing the airport. In this case the aircraft in question needing fire service's was not in an area that constituted shutting down the whole airport, provided the airport remained part 139 compliant with the remaining ARFF equipment still in service.

Even if the controller had declared the airport closed, he still lost situational awareness of the Air Canada flight, regardless. It's not as though the aircraft would go around in the middle of decelerating in the runway.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Black eye for controllers. Condolences for the crew. Working alone sucks. Had one close call on a mid shift myself. Had a crew working on the barrier one night with the runway lights off. After a couple hours, I had a customs/border control Citation call to land. I remembered to turn on the lights but forgot about the barrier crew. First, they didn’t usually work at night and secondly, they usually take over 20 minutes to do what they have to do. Bottom line, I was fighting sleep and forgot about them. After the Citation landed, they asked, “tower, did you know there was a truck right next to the runway where we touched down?” My heart sank, and I realized what I had done. Fortunately for me, when I turned on the lights, the barrier crew saw what was about to happen and exited the runway on their own.

34 years as a controller and that was the closest I’ve ever come to killing somebody. It still haunts me to this day. Looking forward to retirement (again) in December.
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Old civ DoD controller friend of mine landed a C-130 on the runway while Marines were FOD walking. Even had a yellow bus driving along side of them. One of the best controllers I ever worked with and he made a grave error. But, how is it the other 3 in the cab didn’t catch it either? We can try and checklist / policy out human error but it’ll never happen.

“You land a million planes safely; then you have one little midair and you never hear the end of it.”

Pushing Tin
 
any word on the people in the truck? I'm assuming they're the 'critical' ones.....
 
One thing they do at Tucson is have the vehicles that enter the runway call for permission on tower frequency. I think that it’s smart to do it this way. In this case, it might have given the RJ a heads up that tower allowed someone to cross the runway. Not a guarantee because of the multiple runways but it may have helped.
 
Obviously anything is speculation at this point, but as in the DCA crash, picking out a set of landing lights at night, in a highly light polluted urban environment, with little relative motion, is very difficult to do at a half mile to mile distance when this accident chain started. By the time the fire truck crew might have noticed that set of lights it was too late to react.

Also note the truck that was talking to ATC was not the one stuck, it was part of the "and company" behind Truck 1. They were more likely following the truck in front of them. Not knowing their procedures, they may not have even been monitoring the same ATC frequency.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well not just understaffed, but overworked when on position. Expecting a controller to work that amount of traffic flawlessly day in and day out, is unrealistic. My brother is retired ATC and he’s amazed that they get away with their poor phraseology and even the unprofessionalism there. But, when you’re that busy, it’s not always gonna be by the book.
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So I assume the “F word” is as useless to controllers as pilots.

F word = FATIGUE

THAT is the issue, ACTUALLY doing the decision making. I’m too tired, I’m too tasked, I’m too bored… doesn’t matter. I’m too ANYTHING to do it safely, then I’m not gonna do it.

I’m NOT being judgy, I’ve done it… stupidly.

But it IS the core issue, being HONEST AND STRONG ENOUGH to just say no. Shut down the operation. It’s HARD TO DO. But doing it SHOULD highlight the real issue and get it fixed before this.

But in reality, it’ll just get you fired, but then at least it’s not on your shoulders.

I fully acknowledge even recognizing that is hard. But isn’t it a core training requirement? Recognizing when your are not in a position to do it safely? Back to basics….
 
I found a document showing where each RWSL is installed at LGA. The Runway 4/Taxiway D intersection was included.
 
Amazed right now the ARFF truck guys survived. Those are some stout trucks. Which, consequently did massive damage to the Al shell of the plane. Condolences all around. Its a complex calculus moving planes and vehicles around each other, highly dependent on the human factor(s). I am going to speculate that ARFF crew understand the RWSL? And if yes, they will prioritize incursion through runway environment once cleared by ATC? I dont know if LGA has RWSL, maybe not.
 
T Bird said:
Saw a report the CRJ was going about 30mph at the point of impact, so not sure it was "just beyond the point of touchdown." Seeing the aftermath I would've guessed closer to 100mph, and maybe that report was wrong.
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yep.. thrust reversers are still deployed on the parked carcass this morning.
 
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