You are in the way

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Stemme

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mtglider
Blind call from local tower in class D airspace top 7000 feet. Flying at 8500 feet, over 5 miles from his airspace and get an unsolicited call. Aircraft 5 miles to the SE what is your call sign? Respond and he tells me "you are in the way, turn west and descend" and not for a specific target. What would your response to him have been?
 
I'm happy to do my part to de-conflict, but that's a rather uninformative and unhelpful call from the tower.
Descend to what altitude? Where's the traffic, and where's it headed -- inbound/outbound, etc.
 
Interesting interpretation on this matter.

I mean, I doubt tower is making blind calls to planes for S&Gs so I would value their instruction as useful -- useful to who might be up for grabs. (some local PD chopper or something who we are trying to not temporarily inconvenience -- might not merit my fullest concern)

 
Did the tower identify themselves by name,was your ADSB out active? If you were vfr there would be no reason to answer.
 
schmookeeg said:
Interesting interpretation on this matter.

I mean, I doubt tower is making blind calls to planes for S&Gs so I would value their instruction as useful -- useful to who might be up for grabs. (some local PD chopper or something who we are trying to not temporarily inconvenience -- might not merit my fullest concern)
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Interesting but common. Being a good NAS user is an affront to our freedom to fly. :rolleyes:

I'd probably ask the reason. Without knowing which airport, I guessed approach/departure corridor since that's the usual reason if it's not specific traffic. Pilots tend to be oblivious about situational awareness. Or they just don't care and prefer to see things like changes to Class C and D airspace to make it more restrictive.
 
frfly172 said:
Did the tower identify themselves by name,was your ADSB out active? If you were vfr there would be no reason to answer.
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Yes ADSB was active in and out and there were no targets on my screen. He did not identify the tower by name. Coming over the mountains east going west minimum altitude in 8500 feet. That is only about 500 ft above the terrain and in a valley. Their 7000 foot ceiling is just about 5 miles from the mountains. Descending would put me in his airspace and guess he didn't want me in there hence the westward turn in addition. I am glad by complying I saved Delta, American and NetJets a few hundred gallons of jet fuel.
 
If the "tower" didn't identify, it could have just as easily been some @$$hat with an Air VHF-capable radio looking you up on any of the public sites and seeing if he could mess with you.

Just something to consider. 5 miles outside and 1,500 above is a pretty big margin to be getting blind calls from towers. On the other hand, some of the contracted controllers have been making the You-viewer lately for being clowns with a superiority complex.
 
Nice, defense fodder for the hearing if they found you noncomplying with ATC instructions. "I just assumed it was an asshat because towers don't generally cold-call planes outside of their airspace"
 
Stemme said:
Blind call from local tower in class D airspace top 7000 feet. Flying at 8500 feet, over 5 miles from his airspace and get an unsolicited call. Aircraft 5 miles to the SE what is your call sign? Respond and he tells me "you are in the way, turn west and descend" and not for a specific target. What would your response to him
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I take it you were monitoring the Tower frequency. Did he say anything about altitude? Did he take any action to ensure that you were in fact the Target he thought you were?
 
KE5BM said:
If the "tower" didn't identify, it could have just as easily been some @$$hat with an Air VHF-capable radio looking you up on any of the public sites and seeing if he could mess with you.
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Does sound hinky. Might be worth reporting, you think?
 
Piperonca said:
Does sound hinky. Might be worth reporting, you think?
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Controller's voice was the same as the one directing the commercial traffic to land so do not think it was a spoof. Never heard back from him so he must have been happy with my turn and descent. I fly this profile routinely so perhaps will call the tower and ask them how they would like me to fly when I am OUTSIDE their airspace. As mentioned above I am all for safety and there was total situational awareness and of course for any potential conflict resolution would have been instituted immediately. One of the reasons I was monitoring tower frequency.
 
Any notes about approach/departure corridors in the AFD? I’ve encountered that before but failed to include it in my plan. Oops, mea culpa but fortunately no harm done.
 
Stemme said:
Controller's voice was the same as the one directing the commercial traffic to land so do not think it was a spoof. Never heard back from him so he must have been happy with my turn and descent. I fly this profile routinely so perhaps will call the tower and ask them how they would like me to fly when I am OUTSIDE their airspace. As mentioned above I am all for safety and there was total situational awareness and of course for any potential conflict resolution would have been instituted immediately. One of the reasons I was monitoring tower frequency.
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What airport was this?
 
Stemme said:
Blind call from local tower in class D airspace top 7000 feet. Flying at 8500 feet, over 5 miles from his airspace and get an unsolicited call. Aircraft 5 miles to the SE what is your call sign? Respond and he tells me "you are in the way, turn west and descend" and not for a specific target. What would your response to him have been?
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Where was this?
 
Yup, pull the ODP & STAR's for the airport and see if they go where you were.
 
asicer said:
Any notes about approach/departure corridors in the AFD? I’ve encountered that before but failed to include it in my plan. Oops, mea culpa but fortunately no harm done.
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Generally, no. Problem is they can change with the wind and traffic mix. But one is pretty easy. When there’s a runway, it’s a safe bet there’s an approach corridor on the extended final that goes well beyond the airspace boundary. In that sense, some of them are published - instrument approach charts. But they can be visualized without them.
 
bonefishpete said:
How does ATC control airspace they have no control over?
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They can’t. No instructions are valid in Class G.

OTOH, Class E is controlled airspace. ATC has authority over controlled airspace. How they divide that control among Centers, TRACONs, Towers, etc is just work assignment. If you think, for example, a TRACON’s authority ends at the Class C boundary and doesn’t extend into the surrounding Class E, you would be mistaken.
 
schmookeeg said:
Nice, defense fodder for the hearing if they found you noncomplying with ATC instructions. "I just assumed it was an asshat because towers don't generally cold-call planes outside of their airspace"
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Just mentioning a possibility because these types of things are occurring. However, to your point - not being argumentative, I'm legitimately wondering - if you're 1200, outside Class D airspace, would you be in non-compliance with ATC instructions? Especially if ATC did not identify what space they are controlling? Just looking at my local Class D and how far away 5nm from the ring would be in reference to the approach corridor....that's a long way. And I'm over relatively flat ground here. Arbitrarily maneuvering a VFR aircraft near mountains to a less-than MSA seems...unreasonable. Although, looking at the approach plates here you're at 1700' AGL on the approach at about that distance.

To the OP @Stemme , were you monitoring tower frequency or 121.5 when you got the call?
 
Not in the Stemme, Aircraft were taking off to the SE hence looking at their departures I was in their general flow but one would hope they would be well above me to clear the mountains. Landing commercial traffic coming from the east also should have been much higher and wider from where I was. Long and short I was somewhere in his flowing he wanted me out of the way.
 
Hmmm… if it were CLEARLY safe for me to do so, I would do like you, and just reply and turn. Arguing about it when it MIGHT be a reasonable safety issue isn’t smart.

I would DEFINITELY follow up and see if he did it for expediency of commercial traffic or a legit safety concern, or what ever.

I wouldn’t turn because I thought I had to comply, fact is ANYONE who asks me to turn (without giving me a reason) is likely to get a turn out of me if it’s safe to do so, can determine why later.

It’s on me to refuse if it ain’t smart for me to turn, EVEN IF they have “authority” over me. But of course NO ONE has the authority to compel me to do something I don’t think is safe.

If it was BS, point noted… you’re gonna know you were caught…
 
Just suppose ATC has a heavy in landing configuration coming up behind you, to pass safely clear above, but he is worried that the wing vortices may be strong enough to flip you upside down?

I have experienced such strong vortices, fortunately, we were flying across, and experienced violent up, then down. Both off us had seat belts normal snug, and hit the overhead hard on the downer.

Cessna 150 with another pilot flying first time, second time, Piper 182, clear air all around us, we never saw the aircraft that produced the vortices, but noticed that we were in line with a major runway at an air carrier airport.

An outbound at full gross, and climbing rapidly produces strong vortices, and most likely produced the second event.

In all my years of flying, I cannot recall ATC reaching out to me for a trivial reason.
 
geezer said:
Just suppose ATC has a heavy in landing configuration coming up behind you, to pass safely clear above, but he is worried that the wing vortices may be strong enough to flip you upside down?
...
In all my years of flying, I cannot recall ATC reaching out to me for a trivial reason.
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Agreed, but if that were the case, would it have been too much trouble for the controller to say "Turn west and descend, traffic" instead of "you are in the way, turn west and descend?" And then, once the situation was resolved, to call back with an explanation and authorization to "resume own navigation."

If I were @Stemme (and I ain't), I think I'd phone the tower and get the story. To move a plane to avoid an immediate traffic conflict is one thing, but controllers are not empowered to effectively expand the boundary of a class D arbitrarily.
 
KE5BM said:
- if you're 1200, outside Class D airspace, would you be in non-compliance with ATC instructions? Especially if ATC did not identify what space they are controlling?
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Class E airspace is still labeled "Controlled Airspace".

And 91.123b says:
"Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised."

So, to me, while you are not required to request ATC services in Class E, if you do receive ATC instructions you must comply.

Now of course, in the OP's scenario, there was no requirement for him to have the radio tuned in to the tower freq, so that muddies the water, but just being outside of A-D airspace doesn't mean you can disregard ATC instructions.
 
So you were flight following and didn’t know it. This is strange.
 
bonefishpete said:
So you were flight following and didn’t know it. This is strange.
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They weren't on flight following. Just a random pilot flying legally but apparently in one of those places where you were in the way of operations. Apparently bad enough in terms of location and traffic that ATC reached out to them on the radio and told them to move. That type of reaching out has definitely increased with ADS-B.

I don't know where they were, but there are lots of those bad places around. Take most any Class D. A solo Class E extension is a decent clue since it will include a typical IAP downwind, but you can draw a line from the active runway centerline out about 10 NM (so yes, beyond the Class D boundary) and about 2000 AGL and about 3 NM on either side of it is probably an approach corridor. If you are hanging out there, and it's relatively busy, chances are you are in the way.

That's one of the things nice about those pilot-controller get-togethers (I was at one this morning). The controllers will show you what their traffic looks like, where those bad spots are, and explain why they are bad.
 
The approaches to Runway 6 and 11 at FIN (Flagler Florida) are good examples of what @midlifeflyer is mentioning. The RNAV's extend out quite a ways and are in an area of heavy GA/Training traffic. Doing approaches in VFR conditions requires a good eye on traffic that will be well outside the Class D, but squarely in the glideslope. Fully legal being there, but keeps you on your toes.
 
What’s the legality of this is my point?
Positive Control creep?

ATC can certainly cancel flight following for non compliance but vectoring aircraft in open airspace is another thing.

Years back flying to Outer Banks I would fly in the warning areas off the beach. Perfectly legal and ATC would drop me which was expected. They never barred me.
 
Stemme said:
Not in the Stemme, Aircraft were taking off to the SE hence looking at their departures I was in their general flow but one would hope they would be well above me to clear the mountains. Landing commercial traffic coming from the east also should have been much higher and wider from where I was. Long and short I was somewhere in his flowing he wanted me out of the way.
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If I were in your position, I'd call the tower and ask about this because you're suggesting a bunch of possibilities with no way to really know. Also, given the way you described MSA around that field, I'd be really curious as to why descending me below MSA was safer than overflying the airspace. If I were close enough to that field for a short drive, I'd love to visit them to better understand what they're dealing with.
 
The ATO hates the “RA’s” result when you are near a corridor. In fact on FF (32 DME arc) from 1C5 to UGN when I get to about 7,000 they always can and ask “intentions”….and to keep me from getting too near BENKE they clear me through the Bravo.

They WILL play ball with GA if it helps them to do so. It works every time.
 
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