You are in the way

Stemme said:
He did not identify the tower by name.
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Ummm... Are you sure it was actually the Tower??? I'm seriously questioning it. I can't see a Tower give an aircraft instructions without identifying themselves... it is just too much of a habit for them, so I'd think it would have to be a conscious effort NOT say who they were.

What airport was it? It would be easier to get a visual of where you were and the terrain. And it would also be interesting if you called the Tower Chief to inquire why they reached out to you since you were not in their airspace.
 
M20K said:
Are you sure it was actually the Tower??
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Interesting thought.

Maybe it was another aircraft who wanted him out of the way? I don’t think a pilot is legally obligated to obey an instruction from an unidentified voice over the radio.
 
Tools said:
Meaconing!!!
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You know…the OP said they asked for his call sign. I thought the anonymous mode didn’t work with ATC, so they should have had it already.

This DOES sound like a meaconing event.

Another benefit of the ADS-B Out requirement…you can use it to clear your path.

Ron Wanttaja
 
It would be like sitting on the foul line in your Hoover watching the Screw Top come down the pipe knowing that if he catches a 4 wire it’ll put his wing tip right in your face, unnerving… so ya key the mic and say (in the soft crooning tones of paddles) “you’re a little high” to drop him in on a 2!! Problem solved.

And no, this is not the time I (may or may not have) committed meaconing. But I ALMOST did one night….
 
Tools said:
It would be like sitting on the foul line in your Hoover watching the Screw Top come down the pipe knowing that if he catches a 4 wire it’ll put his wing tip right in your face, unnerving… so ya key the mic and say (in the soft crooning tones of paddles) “you’re a little high” to drop him in on a 2!! Problem solved.

And no, this is not the time I (may or may not have) committed meaconing. But I ALMOST did one night….
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Screw Top ???
 
KE5BM said:
OK, I'm clearly not one of the cool kids. What is meaconing?
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Meaconing might not be exactly the right term here, but it's defined as sending false navigation signals. During WWII, for instance, the Germans used a set of radio stations to guide bombers to their targets over England, and the British generated false signals so the bombers didn't go to their planned target. About 20 years ago, the Iranians used meaconing to lure a US RPV over their territory to shoot it down and examine the wreckage.

Ron Wanttaja
 
If I recall, there are things a class D tower does and does not do. They separate traffic on the ground, sequence departures and arrivals. But they don't offer (are even allowed to?) separation services while in the air except if they have a radar. So it seems the tower was playing outside of his sandbox. Not saying it wasn't helpful to someone, just that it's odd.

A

Thread 'How do class D tower controller separate VFR traffic without radar?'

I've been trying to understand how this works, I know that some class D airports have radar, others don't, for those who don't have it, the only thing I can think of is looking through binoculars but that sounds like a long shot.
In some D airports I land at (VFR) which I am fairly sure don't have radar, they usually are able to tell how far I am on final, as well as reporting position of other traffic in the pattern, how is that possible without radar?


iamtheari said:
Q: How do class D tower controllers separate VFR traffic?
A: They don't. AIM 3-2-5(e): "Separation for VFR Aircraft. No separation services are provided to VFR aircraft."

That said, they do try to help pilots avoid mid-air collisions using any tools they have available, including eyeballs, binoculars, radio calls, and sometimes radar. But whatever they are doing at any particular airport on any particular day, don't assume it is separation.
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Tools said:
It would be like sitting on the foul line in your Hoover watching the Screw Top come down the pipe knowing that if he catches a 4 wire it’ll put his wing tip right in your face, unnerving… so ya key the mic and say (in the soft crooning tones of paddles) “you’re a little high” to drop him in on a 2!! Problem solved.
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Yeah this explanation made things even less clear somehow o_O Buncha jargonauts in here.
 
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of this section. In addition, each person must comply with §§ 91.126 and 91.127. For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport for which the Class D airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is any other airportwithin the Class D airspace area.

) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

(2) Departing flight. Each person—

(i) From the primary airport or satellite airport with an operating control tower must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the control tower, and thereafter as instructed by ATC while operating in the Class D airspace area; or

(ii) From a satellite airport without an operating control tower, must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the ATCfacility having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area as soon as practicable after departing.

My question is why you were monitoring their freq?
 
Clip4 said:
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of this section. In addition, each person must comply with §§ 91.126 and 91.127. For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport for which the Class D airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is any other airportwithin the Class D airspace area.

) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

(2) Departing flight. Each person—

(i) From the primary airport or satellite airport with an operating control tower must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the control tower, and thereafter as instructed by ATC while operating in the Class D airspace area; or

(ii) From a satellite airport without an operating control tower, must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the ATCfacility having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area as soon as practicable after departing.

My question is why you were monitoring their freq?
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For safety on my behalf and theirs. Also I was never in class D airspace.
 
Stemme said:
For safety on my behalf and theirs. Also I was never in class D airspace.
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It seems to me if you wanted to monitor an ATC frequency for your safety and theirs you would have requested VFR service in the Class E you were operating.
 
Clip4 said:
It seems to me if you wanted to monitor an ATC frequency for your safety and theirs you would have requested VFR service in the Class E you were operating.
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Not necessarily. I don’t always use flight following when VFR. When I don’t, depending on my 3D location, I will monitor TRACONs, Deltas, and even CTAFs I pass near as part of my situational awareness. IIRC, I was taught that in my student days.
 
Monitoring frequencies is a great idea. You were being a safe pilot. ATC has no authority if you are VFR - you don’t even need a radio. I wouldn’t have responded, but probably “get out of the way” as you did for safety. I would get a code if I’m in any tricky airspace, though.
Sometimes you can’t get a code if the controllers are really busy - the shelf under the Boston Bravo is an example. Can’t get a word in sometimes.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Yup.
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And sometimes I reach out to them. More than once, I heard myself pointed out as "were not talking to them" traffic and responded with what I was doing.

As indicated in Post #2, I have exactly zero regulatory, practical, or personal concerns with the OP scenario.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Not necessarily. I don’t always use flight following when VFR. When I don’t, depending on my 3D location, I will monitor TRACONs, Deltas, and even CTAFs I pass near as part of my situational awareness. IIRC, I was taught that in my student days.
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Sure, “oh, I am the aircraft in the way, I just turn and help out”. If your 3D location warrants monitoring Tracons and Deltas, you are far in a better situation being a part of the ATC system than monitoring the system.
 
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Clip4 said:
Sure, “oh, I am the aircraft in the way, I just turn and help out”. If your 3D location warrants monitoring Tracons and Deltas, you are far in a better situation being a part of the ATC system than monitoring the system.
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Sometimes, particularly on a short flight I just don't want to. I've even done it near Bravos. Sorry if you don't like it.
 
Interesting.

A few months ago, night flying with a CFI. She wanted to shoot an approach at a class D (yep, lots of other interesting parts to this story). She was playing ATC, so we were clipping the north side of class D headed east to then turn south and shoot the approach. It is a busy Class D. I made a call to the tower and told them were were headed their way and what we were doing. She became incensed. I don't understand her reaction.
 
My buddy landed one afternoon and I walked over to his hangar. Another pilot landed and came running over. He said, "I can't believe you just did that." "Did what?" "You just told the tower to go F themselves!" My friend had flown over Bergstram's airspace and the tower had tried to call him. He wasn't on frequency. Some other pilot replied, pretending to by my friend, and when they told him to descend he told them no and a few other things! We never found out who it was, but it had us laughing.
 
WDD said:
Interesting.

A few months ago, night flying with a CFI. She wanted to shoot an approach at a class D (yep, lots of other interesting parts to this story). She was playing ATC, so we were clipping the north side of class D headed east to then turn south and shoot the approach. It is a busy Class D. I made a call to the tower and told them were were headed their way and what we were doing. She became incensed. I don't understand her reaction.
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The CFI was incensed because you called? Heck, I don't even understand doing a practice approach into a towered airport without using ATC services.
 
WDD said:
Interesting.

A few months ago, night flying with a CFI. She wanted to shoot an approach at a class D (yep, lots of other interesting parts to this story). She was playing ATC, so we were clipping the north side of class D headed east to then turn south and shoot the approach. It is a busy Class D. I made a call to the tower and told them were were headed their way and what we were doing. She became incensed. I don't understand her reaction.
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Was she planning on you actually entering the Class D?
 
My home airport is a busy class D. They will often deny practice approaches due to a full pattern, but if you are coming in to land, they will accept a straight-in. If I happen to do that by intercepting the RNAV between the IAF and the FAF and happen to have a safety pilot and using a view limiting device, I might, hypothetically, do that to get in my last logable approach after going to some less busy airports to get the others.
 
luvflyin said:
So what happened? Take us from that point to the ground
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She gave me a "flustered look", wagged her head. We were north of the airport. We continued east, she gave me a vector south to the IAF, and we turned west and flew the approach for 27. When we turned west I called the tower again and told them what we were doing, got landing clearance. Landed full stop.
 
WDD said:
She gave me a "flustered look", wagged her head. We were north of the airport. We continued east, she gave me a vector south to the IAF, and we turned west and flew the approach for 27. When we turned west I called the tower again and told them what we were doing, got landing clearance. Landed full stop.
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What had she wanted you to do?
 
Lindberg said:
What had she intended as far as communicating with the tower? Did you debrief after the flight?
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Didn’t want to communicate with tower until we were on approach. As I was approaching his airspace from the north and heading east then south then west I elected to call tower and tell him what I was doing.
 
I would have helped them out ... ABQ Center and SoCAL have been great over the years ... PHX Class B and Double Eagle Class D, not so mucho_O

I've been asked to circle a fire several times for them to establish a TFR ... was also asked to check if I could see an aircraft near the border that they had been trying to reach that crossed the ADIZ without flight plan or communication (they got intercepted).
 
Stemme said:
Blind call from local tower in class D airspace top 7000 feet. Flying at 8500 feet, over 5 miles from his airspace and get an unsolicited call. Aircraft 5 miles to the SE what is your call sign? Respond and he tells me "you are in the way, turn west and descend" and not for a specific target. What would your response to him have been?
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In the way of what?
 
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