Touch Screens Are Making [Vehicles] Worse. It’s Time to Bring Back Buttons and Knobs.

Even worse, how creative all the manufacturers are getting with the shifters. Used to be two choices, a lever on the steering column or a shifter in the center console. Now its a knob, or buttons, or even a twist stick where the wiper function is in some cars (Buick, took me a few minutes to figure that one out).

At our farm, some 'driver' making a delivery in a Freightliner Cascadia drove himself into a position so sticky I had to insist I reposition it for him. I climbed in expecting a 10-speed and found this:

IMG_5696.jpeg

It felt like backing a 53' reefer with a golf cart.
 
1) Climate control. I don't have to adjust this at all. It just works and I'm always comfortable. Both for cabin temp as well as the heated seats and steering wheel.
But what about the next person? I know of one automotive writer that likes the heated seats on high (sore back) with the A/C at max (acclimated to cold weather).
 
But what about the next person? I know of one automotive writer that likes the heated seats on high (sore back) with the A/C at max (acclimated to cold weather).
Even my car, which is about a thousand times less sophisticated than a Tesla, knows who's driving. Either based on the smart key or your phone.
 
I like the hi way billboard that says , “don’t drive distracted”.
Indeed , I had to be distracted to read it.
 
I don't think that's irrelevant at all. When things are automated, they should be automated so well that you don't notice.
I've had the same experience as you. Lots of poorly designed user interfaces and, I think, those who criticize Tesla's approach are thinking of systems like those.

Now that the matrix headlights are enabled on my car, it's super cool
It's amazing. I'm also amazed by the fact that my car had the hardware to do this for nearly four years before the laws were changed to allow it and it was turned on. Driving down the freeway at night with moderate freeway traffic and everywhere that there isn't another car is lit up brightly while I can't even tell the color paint on the cars near me because they are still dark. I think this tech will spread quickly to all but the least expensive cars. It is that good.

But what about the next person? I know of one automotive writer that likes the heated seats on high (sore back) with the A/C at max (acclimated to cold weather).
This works really well. All of your settings, not just the seat position and mirrors, are saved for each driver. It recognizes your phone or your key card and sets everything to your liking. This includes everything in the settings menu, driving dynamics, autopilot settings, and all of your audio and entertainment settings (i.e. My Spotify account when I'm driving). If it gets it wrong, the profile name is at the top of the screen when you are in park. Touch it and select the profile you want.
 
Since we're going full caveman in here, we should also rally against fuel injection. My first car had manual choke with a dedicated lever. (240Z)

Wasn't it the model T that had a manual ignition timing advance? Oooh and that deliciously analog starting handcrank! :D

Someone show us a pic of your restomod horse. :P
 
I believe 7 of my 9 motorcycles (all maintained, registered and operable) have a manual choke or EFI fast idle lever, as opposed to automatic cold start enrichment and a computer controlled idle bypass valve. I prefer that solution along with shifting gears, the latter on either a car or motorcycle. It’s fun to operate and own sustainable machines, the newer stuff is to me no different than a long term rental car… you buy it, use it, eventually throw it away accepting that the resale value is a small fraction of the price, then never think about it again. No fun, no memories, nothing moves through life with you, and there’s too much dealing with the dealer. You’re just a cell in the manufacturers spreadsheet with the side benefit of a period of “mobility” (in their queer 21st century vernacular). I’ve worked a long time for the luxury of independence and increasingly avoid being a cell in somebody else’s spreadsheet. To each his own.
 
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Wasn't it the model T that had a manual ignition timing advance?
My 1928 ford A Fordor (first release dealer showroom model with cowl vent and forged iron not stamped steel tail light and running board supports) still has the manual spark advance and backup hand crank if the starter doesn’t work. I would post a pic but it is currently going through wood replacement for dry rot on the front corner posts and header over the windshield.
 
Having to navigate a sub-menu for principal functions like fan blower control in a car is diabolical. Call me a luddite I don't care.

I traded in a new VW Jetta 18 months ago at not-insignificant loss 6 months into it (lost the value of the comprehensive factory warranty extension, username checks), since I couldn't get over the automated brake assist (manual transmission) not being able to be overridden by gas or clutch pedal movement. Almost got me killed at an inclinded TX railroad crossing. It also had many functions embedded into touchscreen sub menus which my current Hyundais have in in-dash buttons, and all which required parking to adjust to add insult to injury. It got too much for me to "put up with". Did I mentioned username checks? lol.
 
Having to navigate a sub-menu for principal functions like fan blower control in a car is diabolical. Call me a luddite I don't care.

That would suck.

But in day-to-day driving in our Tesla, we virtually never have to “navigate sub-menus”. Changing fan speed requires one touch of the TEMP display, and then tapping L/R arrows for higher or lower settings. Or even easier, use a voice command.

Stipulated that other manufacturers may come up short in this regard, but Teslas really have quite elegant and intuitive user interfaces. That would definitely figure in if and when we are shopping for another EV.
 
I've never driven a new car that has all touchscreen gizmos but I've always been amazed that OMG you can't answer your phone in your car OMG but wait, you can use a full touchscreen giant hideous tablet built into the car to control literally everything. makes zero sense.
It makes sense to the manufacturer, since all those pretty colors and features are really cheap to make and they impress the prospective buyer. All done via photographic processes and robotic assembly. Mechanical devices like potentiometers and push-pull cables or vacuum-driven devices are not cheap to make nor do they lend themselves easily to robotic assembly. The same reasons are why analog wristwatches cost so much more than digital watches. They're full of tiny gears and a tinier motor.
I miss the foot click switch for high beams in cars, crank windows, and the little smoker vent windows that swung out (not sure their proper name), I’m of the opinion that stuff has gotten way more complicated (and expensive) than it needs to be. (Cowl vents also worked very good in summer to stay comfortable without air conditioning as long as you could keep moving).
Me too. Last vehicle I had with wing windows was my 1951 International. It had the top-cowl vent, too, and it sure scooped in the air on hot days.
I think this is mostly a cost issue. All those extra potentiometers and knobs will add to the manufacturing cost. A plain touch screen is simpler to manufacture.
As above. It's all about cost, and the touchscreen is simpler and cheaper.

15 years ago when I was still at the flight school, if we had an issue with one of the Garmin screens, we'd pull it and send it straight to Garmin. An MFD at that time had a $400 flat "repair" fee. What we got back a few days later was a brand-new MFD with a tag that had the same serial number as the one we sent in. It was cheaper for Garmin to give us that new box than to try to get into the old one and replace some tiny chip or interface component. Cheap to manufacture, expensive and nearly impossible to repair. The up-front cost of the MFD, when originally purchased, would have had a pretty hefty padding to allow Garmin to do this.
 
Having to navigate a sub-menu for principal functions like fan blower control in a car is diabolical.

Bought a midsize pickup a couple of years ago. I looked at the Colorado (a friend is a salesman at a nearby dealership) and when inside the truck I asked him to turn on the headlights. He says, "those are automatic." So I said, "OK cool... turn 'em on!"

After 10 minutes of digging through menus and sub menus (I'm sure it's faster once you know) he found out where the controls were. Needless to say he didn't sell me a vehicle ...
 
An MFD at that time had a $400 flat "repair" fee. What we got back a few days later was a brand-new MFD with a tag that had the same serial number as the one we sent in. It was cheaper for Garmin to give us that new box than to try to get into the old one and replace some tiny chip or interface component.

That pretty much tells you how much an MFD cost Garmin.
 
Even my car, which is about a thousand times less sophisticated than a Tesla, knows who's driving. Either based on the smart key or your phone.
All of your settings, not just the seat position and mirrors, are saved for each driver. It recognizes your phone or your key card and sets everything to your liking. This includes everything in the settings menu, driving dynamics, autopilot settings, and all of your audio and entertainment settings (i.e. My Spotify account when I'm driving). If it gets it wrong, the profile name is at the top of the screen when you are in park. Touch it and select the profile you want.
The original example was for an automotive writer. The pool is probably rotating every other day so setting up profiles each time is rather impractical. The one that I run into is that the vehicle's owner picks me up at the airport, makes me the designated driver and then hops in the passenger seat. I don't drive that car very often so I don't bother setting up a profile. But even if I did, the owner would delete it after my shift is over because "security".
 
The pool is probably rotating every other day so setting up profiles each time is rather impractical
Your profile is stored in Tesla's cloud and can follow you from car to car. It doesn't have to be programmed into each individual car that you drive. It will work in a car that you rent as long as you're given access in the app. My profile was available when I took a 2-hour demo drive in a Model Y.

This is what I mean by when a user interface is done right vs. when it's done wrong.
 
That pretty much tells you how much an MFD cost Garmin.
Something slightly north of $400. That would buy a lot of knobs and potentiometers. Cars with only a touchscreen might be easier to assemble, but I doubt the parts cost less.
 
At our farm, some 'driver' making a delivery in a Freightliner Cascadia drove himself into a position so sticky I had to insist I reposition it for him. I climbed in expecting a 10-speed and found this:

View attachment 148254

It felt like backing a 53' reefer with a golf cart.
Did it still have a clutch (shiftomatic) or not (automatic)? Automatic trucks are weird. There's still a clutch, it just auto-engages at a few hundred RPM above idle. When you're trying to do a really precise backing maneuver and just want to inch along, they kinda suck. In stop-and-go city traffic, though, they're much more useful.

FWIW, I look at that shifter and I know exactly how it works. DNR for the auto/shifto setting, the switch to the right of it goes in for manual-shift mode and out for auto-shift mode, and you shift in manual mode by moving it up and down.

But what about the next person? I know of one automotive writer that likes the heated seats on high (sore back) with the A/C at max (acclimated to cold weather).
I like settings like that too... But you can sync driver profiles to the app/cloud and restore them in whatever Tesla you drive. I've used my own driver profile in my mom's Tesla as well as in a rental. It's pretty slick!

Also, even when it's in auto climate mode, there is a preference you can dial in for low, medium, and high fan speed. I tend to like a higher fan speed so my auto is set to high.

I've had the same experience as you. Lots of poorly designed user interfaces and, I think, those who criticize Tesla's approach are thinking of systems like those.
Agreed. "Car touchscreen interfaces suck, Tesla is a car with a touchscreen interface, it must suck." In reality, completely the opposite. It really is that different and that good.

It's amazing. I'm also amazed by the fact that my car had the hardware to do this for nearly four years before the laws were changed to allow it and it was turned on. Driving down the freeway at night with moderate freeway traffic and everywhere that there isn't another car is lit up brightly while I can't even tell the color paint on the cars near me because they are still dark. I think this tech will spread quickly to all but the least expensive cars. It is that good.
I had no idea such a thing existed until I turned on the light show when I was parked just outside a closed garage and the headlights projected TESLA onto the garage door. :o Then I dug into it and learned that I had the hardware but that the law hadn't yet caught up. Joe Biden signed some legislation in 2022 that started allowing the matrix lights and they were enabled in a software update.

15 years ago when I was still at the flight school, if we had an issue with one of the Garmin screens, we'd pull it and send it straight to Garmin. An MFD at that time had a $400 flat "repair" fee. What we got back a few days later was a brand-new MFD with a tag that had the same serial number as the one we sent in. It was cheaper for Garmin to give us that new box than to try to get into the old one and replace some tiny chip or interface component. Cheap to manufacture, expensive and nearly impossible to repair. The up-front cost of the MFD, when originally purchased, would have had a pretty hefty padding to allow Garmin to do this.
FWIW, it's not always a new unit. They're not going to take an otherwise good MFD with one bad button or knob and chuck the whole thing in the scrap heap, they refurbish them. I'd imagine they probably cannibalize subassemblies from the ones they get back, but it's highly unlikely that they do any component-level repair. No sense in the troubleshooting time nor desoldering to replace an 8-cent capacitor or whatever.
 
Did it still have a clutch (shiftomatic) or not (automatic)? Automatic trucks are weird. There's still a clutch, it just auto-engages at a few hundred RPM above idle. When you're trying to do a really precise backing maneuver and just want to inch along, they kinda suck. In stop-and-go city traffic, though, they're much more useful.

It was the full pedal-less auto.

I drove a bobtail Volvo VNL back from the east coast one time and its auto didn't seem to have any means of skipping gears. Every time I'd accelerate from a stop, it would catch all ten on the way up. Seemed like it spent more time shifting than holding a gear. :lol:
 
I drove a bobtail Volvo VNL back from the east coast one time and its auto didn't seem to have any means of skipping gears. Every time I'd accelerate from a stop, it would catch all ten on the way up. Seemed like it spent more time shifting than holding a gear. :lol:
Those Swedes can be pretty shifty.
 
But you can sync driver profiles to the app/cloud and restore them in whatever Tesla you drive. I've used my own driver profile in my mom's Tesla as well as in a rental. It's pretty slick!
Agree. That part is pretty slick. Unless you're a privacy hawk. With both your A/C and seat heater on max, Tesla now knows you have an unhealthy back. You can expect to see painkiller ads in your X (formerly Twitter) feed now. :)
 
This might be a good thread to ask a question. I drive a 2012 Mini Cooper Roadster S with a 6MT and automatic nothing (except basic cruise control) and no screens. It only has Bluetooth because I bought an adapter so I can listen to podcasts, music, and nav from my phone. Purposely had it built that way and it has been a riot to drive and enjoy without any large screens or other electronic distractions. Recently I've been been driving a variety of rental vehicles which have had various types of auto stop-start, lane-keeping, cruise control with distance following, and so forth. Wanting to give them a full chance to convert me, I legitimately gave them a shot in heavy DC traffic and some other locations around the country. In every instance, I found myself being in a state of heightened alert and hovering over the pedals and steering wheel because the systems braked later and heavier than I would choose, randomly suddenly braked without any apparent reason, required active pressing of the accelerator for "drive off" if traffic stopped, and occasionally would just "ping" and quit steering if the road got too twisty.

So my question is this:

Given that these systems seem to require active monitoring (to the point of giving drivers a "time-out" in Tesla's case, I gather from another thread) and given that we know humans are generally very poor at monitoring tasks, what is the benefit of sitting there staring ahead and monitoring vs just actually driving?

I presume that with the more advanced Tesla-style systems, trust is eventually built up, but apparently the thing is tracking your eyes or some such, so you still have to be looking ahead. Is that relaxing?

And I'm not throwing stones here; genuine question. I drive a manual transmission car in DC traffic, so I'm clearly not choosing an optimal driving platform for mission myself.
 
Given that these systems seem to require active monitoring
They only need so much monitoring because they're new to you and you don't trust them yet. After you get used to them and you understand their limitations, the workload decreases significantly.
Yes, you still need to make sure the system doesn't push the stupid button, but that takes a lot less effort.
 
I don't think that's irrelevant at all. When things are automated, they should be automated so well that you don't notice. If you notice, and hate it, then the automation sucks, and they should have left you with a knob.
This is one of the reasons I love my ten-ish years old Subaru. The climate control has knobs, so I can easily adjust if I want to. But! More importantly, it's got an "auto" mode that I use 100% of the time. I just tell it what temp I want and it does the rest. In the winter that means that it doesn't turn the fan on until the car has produced enough heat to start warming the cabin, then it runs the fans on high until things are warmed up and finally reduces them when things are comfortable and maintains the temp. Same in reverse. If it's set for "auto" and it's hot out, it runs the AC on high until the cabin is properly chilled and then goes into a maintenance mode.

Anyway, mostly I just wanted to point out that "automation" and "knobs" are not mutually exclusive. I prefer knobs, but I do also want automation. As another example, I like that I have physical switches for adaptive cruise and lane following. But I also like that I have the automation needed for cruise and lane following.
 
This might be a good thread to ask a question. I drive a 2012 Mini Cooper Roadster S with a 6MT and automatic nothing (except basic cruise control) and no screens. It only has Bluetooth because I bought an adapter so I can listen to podcasts, music, and nav from my phone. Purposely had it built that way and it has been a riot to drive and enjoy without any large screens or other electronic distractions. Recently I've been been driving a variety of rental vehicles which have had various types of auto stop-start, lane-keeping, cruise control with distance following, and so forth. Wanting to give them a full chance to convert me, I legitimately gave them a shot in heavy DC traffic and some other locations around the country. In every instance, I found myself being in a state of heightened alert and hovering over the pedals and steering wheel because the systems braked later and heavier than I would choose, randomly suddenly braked without any apparent reason, required active pressing of the accelerator for "drive off" if traffic stopped, and occasionally would just "ping" and quit steering if the road got too twisty.
I only have adaptive cruise and lane following, not anything that looks like FSD.

That said, I tell my Subaru to cruise by following as far behind the car I'm trailing as the software allows. This seems to reduce the need for it to do hard braking.

The other stuff I'm going to boil down to "if I have to do anything, I'd rather just to everything". Which is a somewhat rational position to take. The notion of someday being able to buy a car with honest to god FSD to the point where I can get in the back seat and tell the car to drive me cross country while I watch movies or catch up on my reading is super appealing. It's also currently science fiction.

For me, I still find the existing automation to be useful and, after a very brief period of getting used to it, definitely an improvement.

The only thing that I don't like, even after nearly a decade, is that because it's not nearly smart enough for FSD it sometimes gets confused when the car I'm trailing decides to make a turn and it mistakes that for something that it needs to brake for. This happens just a handful of times per year, and fewer than that now that I'm familiar with the behavior and just tap it off for a moment before resuming.
 
Given that these systems seem to require active monitoring (to the point of giving drivers a "time-out" in Tesla's case, I gather from another thread) and given that we know humans are generally very poor at monitoring tasks, what is the benefit of sitting there staring ahead and monitoring vs just actually driving?
For me, I find I’m less fatigued after a long drive with the automation turned on.
I presume that with the more advanced Tesla-style systems, trust is eventually built up, but apparently the thing is tracking your eyes or some such, so you still have to be looking ahead. Is that relaxing?
For me, yes.

For shorter drives, automation becomes a case of using it for the sake of using it so I don’t.
 
Two of the three vehicles have lane assist, I hate it and turned it off on both. They both also have automated emergency braking, which I also don’t like. It is turned off on one and I’ve learned to work around most of the bizarre traits on the one that can’t be disabled.

They both adaptive cruise, and I LOVE this feature and the reduced workload it provides when traffic speed is always changing.
 
Two of the three vehicles have lane assist, I hate it and turned it off on both. They both also have automated emergency braking, which I also don’t like. It is turned off on one and I’ve learned to work around most of the bizarre traits on the one that can’t be disabled.

They both adaptive cruise, and I LOVE this feature and the reduced workload it provides when traffic speed is always changing.
“Bizarre Traits” is not a term I would like to hear about on either an Aircraft Autopilot or a motor vehicle.
 
...what is the benefit of sitting there staring ahead and monitoring vs just actually driving?....
I'm cheap. $100/month for FSD is not worth it. But it's nice when it's free. After a long, hard day at work, it's nice to just let the car drive.
 
In a 68 year-old 1957 Chevy, everything still works. How long will a vehicle with touchscreens be drivable? And repairable?
As long as certification isn’t a barrier and originality isn’t a concern, just as long as the ‘57 Chevy.
 
In a 68 year-old 1957 Chevy, everything still works. How long will a vehicle with touchscreens be drivable? And repairable?

Ever try to repair a 6V radio? There's like one ancient elf in some jerkwater WA car museum who will consider looking at them, no promises on timeline or repair likelihood, for a few hundo. We left our 1952's inop.

Try explaining how to adjust those finger-followers for the 3-on-the-tree transmission to current pro-tech mechanic. Measure how long it takes for their eyes to drift out of focus :D

At least you chose chevy, which has a robust aftermarket for parts and panels. Ask folks with a Kaiser/Hudson/Nash etc how they're finding their repairability scores :P Sold volume alone guarantees we're gonna be awash in tesla parts probably longer than I'll be alive.
 
I can state as fact that have repaired both a 6V radio (1947 Chevy) and dealt with the bronze sycronizers of a three on the tree (1953 Chevy). I admit I would be lost/starting from scratch learning on a late 1950’a mechanical fuel injection system, but I am confident I could figure it out and repair it. A modern computer heavy car.. without producer support, ya it’s probably going to be screwed. I currently find my most common emergency calls coming from a production facility that has an automation system that runs on a program written in windows XP.
 
So my question is this:

Given that these systems seem to require active monitoring (to the point of giving drivers a "time-out" in Tesla's case, I gather from another thread) and given that we know humans are generally very poor at monitoring tasks, what is the benefit of sitting there staring ahead and monitoring vs just actually driving?
Liability. No sarcasm, no hyperbole. It needs to be the human's fault if the car runs over a fireman, or drives you under a semi. Doesn't matter that it's not reasonable for a driver to react quickly enough to stop the car from doing so.

I don't think it's an impossible problem to solve, though. Clearly the companies running autonomous taxis and trucks are assuming the liability.
 
Given that these systems seem to require active monitoring (to the point of giving drivers a "time-out" in Tesla's case, I gather from another thread) and given that we know humans are generally very poor at monitoring tasks, what is the benefit of sitting there staring ahead and monitoring vs just actually driving?

I presume that with the more advanced Tesla-style systems, trust is eventually built up, but apparently the thing is tracking your eyes or some such, so you still have to be looking ahead. Is that relaxing?

And I'm not throwing stones here; genuine question. I drive a manual transmission car in DC traffic, so I'm clearly not choosing an optimal driving platform for mission myself.
I have a 2024 Cadillac CT5 with Super Cruise that I purchased in May. I figured if I didn't have the Velocity that I should have something that make long trips easier. I recently had to drive solo up to Virginia Beach for a memorial service. I stopped about halfway on the way up and made the 13 hour drive back in one day. I only had my hands on the wheel for a short portion of the trip. My wife has her profile configured to change lanes automatically but I don't. So changing lanes required me to hit the turn signals when I wanted to go around other cars. Normally, after 13 hours on the road non-stop I would be worn out. Not on the this trip. Just not having to steer the entire trip makes things a little easier.

There is a camera which watches your eyes. It works with mirrored sunglasses and at night too. If your eyes are not looking at the road long enough (a few seconds), the light on the steering wheel flashes, the seat vibrates and an annoying tone sounds. If you don't look at the road after a couple more seconds, the system will shut down and the car will stop (I think hazard lights will come on too).

It only works on "mapped roads" and even on the mapped roads if there are controlled intersections (stop lights, stop signs, yield signs), it will shut down. When it gets to one of those spots, the steering wheel light flashes red, seat vibrates, tone sounds and a message displays that the system is shutting down and to take control. One... feature I don't like is it gives no advance warning. If it was up to me, A message would pop up that says "System shutting down for road conditions in 1 mile" with maybe a countdown in distance or time. A minor annoyance but something that would be easy to fix.

For me, I look at the feature the same way I do an autopilot. It makes the trip less tiring but you are always monitoring.
 
Two things:

1) touch screens have no tactile feedback to the user, which is a downgrade. I think they are easier (read: cheaper) to build & maintain than haptic devices
2) it is incredible (!) to me that there is no standard for automotive control layouts. when I used rent a different rent car every week it was an absolute Fawlty Towers farce trying to figure out where the trunk latch/cruise control/gas cover radio volume etc dials were hidden with each new variant.
2.1) there is a special hell for the designers of some of the "hybrid" controls where volume in a knob and frequency is a touch screen - I'm looking at you GM VOLT :mad:
 
2) it is incredible (!) to me that there is no standard for automotive control layouts. when I used rent a different rent car every week it was an absolute Fawlty Towers farce trying to figure out where the trunk latch/cruise control/gas cover radio volume etc dials were hidden with each new variant.

Amen! When I was traveling, I would sit in a rental car and have to spend a few minutes figuring out the windshield wipers, headlight switches, interior light switches, seat controls, etc., before driving away. It amazed me that while there seemed to be a consensus on turn signals and steering wheel shape, everything else was totally random.
 
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