Touch Screens Are Making [Vehicles] Worse. It’s Time to Bring Back Buttons and Knobs.

Tusayan said:
There is almost nothing in our lives that has the effect of reducing wealth accumulation as much as new car depreciation, particularly if we buy new, high end cars every few years before the depreciation has flattened.
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Like you, now that I've built some wealth, I can afford the depreciation. Still don't trade cars often. I've liked almost all of my cars. Why would I be in such a hurry to get rid of them?

I've had my Model 3 for over four years and will likely keep it at least another two. In the past, I kept them over ten, several over twenty.
 
My Outback is nine years old and I still like it just fine. I drove the vehicle before it for 17 years. I’d love to get 15+ from the Outback.
 
I bought my current truck new, and I don't really want to replace it right now. It's a 2014. The car before that I donated to the kidney foundation. They auctioned it off for less than $500. I generally buy new, but I don't think I've sold or traded anything for more than $1000.
 
FWIW, I've had the Tesla for over 4 years now, and despite it being a very high-tech car, I don't feel the need to upgrade whatsoever because I'm still getting new features in my "old" car. There's newer hardware in the new cars, but aside from being a bit behind on FSD releases which I haven't paid for anyway, I don't think the new cars have any new software features that I don't have.

I'll probably keep this car until my kids are ready for it.

FastEddieB said:
I sometimes have Waze up on the phone, but primarily use Tesla navigation. But I also tend to use the phone for podcasts and music and other “phone” stuff. It also keeps the phone charged via the QuadLock mount.
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You know there's already a phone holder with built in wireless charging right there below the screen, right? ;)

I'm not sure why, but I almost always use Bluetooth audio. Sometimes Caraoke for fun, or sometimes if my kids want to listen to some oddball thing I don't have I might search it on the main screen and play it via Apple Music, but other than that I'm generally on Bluetooth even for podcasts. That's probably out of habit because the Apple Podcasts app hasn't been in the Tesla until the last couple of years.
 
A few months ago I ruined my Prius Prime on the side of a deer. It had a full touchscreen suite. I replaced it with another Prius Prime, actually now in 2025 called a PEHV, and it has returned to (mostly) mechanical switches. I love it.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
FWIW, I've had the Tesla for over 4 years now, and despite it being a very high-tech car, I don't feel the need to upgrade whatsoever because I'm still getting new features in my "old" car.
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I considered upgrading at four years to get AI4. The ventilated seats would be a nice upgrade, too. That's why I took the demo drive in the Y. My FSD does so well, though, that I decided to wait for AI5. Sounds like it might be out by late 2027. That'll still be six years, much shorter than I've kept any of my previous cars. Will also depend on what they're able to do with FSD on HW3 once they achieve unsupervised on HW4.

A while back there was a meme that showed all of the software upgrades to the Model 3 since the 2021 model. It was significant. I wish I had saved a copy of it.

rhkennerly said:
I replaced it with another Prius Prime, actually now in 2025 called a PEHV
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I have very little experience with the Prius, just a couple of taxi rides in well worn versions. The early ones didn't look very exciting but the styling as certainly improved. What are they like today?
 
Larry in TN said:
I considered upgrading at four years to get AI4. The ventilated seats would be a nice upgrade, too. That's why I took the demo drive in the Y. My FSD does so well, though, that I decided to wait for AI5. Sounds like it might be out by late 2027. That'll still be six years, much shorter than I've kept any of my previous cars. Will also depend on what they're able to do with FSD on HW3 once they achieve unsupervised on HW4.
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I got the white interior so I don't need ventilated seats (they weren't available at the time). I'm not going to upgrade for FSD until it's actually FSD, and even then I'd keep the same car if they get it working on HW3.

Larry in TN said:
A while back there was a meme that showed all of the software upgrades to the Model 3 since the 2021 model. It was significant. I wish I had saved a copy of it.
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I don't know if there's an update with the 2025 updates, but I think maybe the image below is what you were referring to?

I use the MyQ garage thing, though I did learn that you need to let your non-Tesla driving wife leave first if you both leave simultaneously or it'll shut the door on her! Adaptive headlights was a big one too.

Tesla 22-24 updates.jpeg
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I got the white interior so I don't need ventilated seats (they weren't available at the time). I'm not going to upgrade for FSD until it's actually FSD, and even then I'd keep the same car if they get it working on HW3.
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The good news is we're about a year from that! "I predict that there will be millions of Teslas operating fully autonomously in the second half of next year." - Tesla April 2025

The bad news is that we've been a year or three away from that since 2013. ""We should be able to do 90 percent of miles driven [autonomously] within three years." - Tesla Sept 2013

But aside from dishing on their absolutely BS announcements and failures, I agree with you. I have the automation I want now and more automation won't be the deciding factor in a purchase for me until you "can go to sleep in your car and wake up in your destination" (Tesla again. Earlier this year prediction for end of 2025)
 
172andyou said:
The bad news is that we've been a year or three away from that since 2013. ""We should be able to do 90 percent of miles driven [autonomously] within three years." - Tesla Sept 2013
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To paraphrase Grumman's Tom Kelly, talking about the development of the Lunar Module, "Any estimate of how long something's gonna take is based on the experience of having done it before. Since no one had ever built [a car capable of general autonomy], we had no experience to base it on."

You may not be up to date with the capabilities of the current FSD software on AI4 cars.

Starting last weekend, there have been a couple of Model Y Robotaxis driving around Austin completely unoccupied doing proving runs in preparation for the removal of the safety passengers.

David Moss, A LiDAR salesman, has been documenting his progress at crisscrossing the country in his AI4 Model 3 on FSD v14 without any interventions or manual driving. As of the last report from last night, he's over 9,700 consecutive miles with 100% FSD. (That mileage is consistent with him having completed the trip to Jacksonville which he was on during the interview below)

The following video is an interview with Moss about his journey and experiences with FSD. I have the link cued up to the beginning of the Moss interview. If you rewind to the beginning, the first story covered is the unoccupied Robotaxi testing in Austin.


BTW, if you're interested in vehicle maintenance, jump back to about 22:00. They discuss, and show, the systemic displays in Service Mode.
 
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Larry in TN said:
To paraphrase Grumman's Tom Kelly, talking about the development of the Lunar Module, "Any estimate of how long something's gonna take is based on the experience of having done it before. Since no one had ever built [a car capable of general autonomy], we had no experience to base it on."
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The first 90% of the job takes 90% of the time and 90% of the money.
The last 10% of the job takes 90% of the time and 90% of the money.

Or, in the words of a director of maintenance I used to deal with, "come up with your best estimate, double it and add 50%".
 
FastEddieB said:
Don't forget...

"Robo-Taxis to Cover About 'Half the U.S. Population' by End of 2025." - July 2025, during earnings call.

So, by tomorrow?
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Well, it's half of the population, and 80% of the people live in urban areas, so to "cover" (whatever that means) half the population just means they need to have one or two units in several major cities. Just because there isn't a robo-taxi in Bugtussle, TN, doesn't mean they didn't meet the goal.

It's all in the interpretation.

But I doubt they made it anyway.
 
AV8R_87 said:
The first 90% of the job takes 90% of the time and 90% of the money.
The last 10% of the job takes 90% of the time and 90% of the money.

Or, in the words of a director of maintenance I used to deal with, "come up with your best estimate, double it and add 50%".
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actually, I was pretty good at program/project schedule estimates. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, liked my estimates. One time a senior manager said that my estimate would "get Noel killed". On that project, it turned out that my estimate was pretty close to how long it actually took.

One trick to accurate schedule estimates is to ignore the fantasy hype and political pressures.
 
Still liking my 47 CJ2A . Paid $200 for it in 1970. Still my summer gopher hunting rig.
All my grandchildren learned to drive in it. It’s a keeper.
New is nice but old is better. ;)
 
Gary Ward said:
I don't like the touch screen in our Cad XT5. It does take my eyes off the road for too long. Too easy to touch the wrong button sometimes.
But I think they are here to stay for a while anyway.
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I have a 2019 XT5, and the touchscreen is mainly infotainment and the GPS. It's pretty easy to manage stuff, and the steering wheel pushbuttons help. I use the Bluetooth hands free controls for phone calls. A few months ago, I was stationary at a light and a random idiot rear ended me. The damage wasn't bad, so off to the body shop.

The rental replacement I was given during repairs was a 2025 XT5. The touchscreen, which was 3X larger than the one in my car, made basic operation of the climate controls, radio, phone, and everything other function GM engineering managed to cram into it impossible to use safely while driving.

So now there's an increasing number of these vehicles on the road. Combining them with the average driver that is basically a hazard to life along with a cell phone in their lap watching videos, it's going to make going to the grocery store a real adventure.
 
I was going to say that muscle memory is the reason why I like physical buttons rather than touch screen, but I actually have muscle memory on my iphone touch screen's software keyboard. I think where it breaks down is the scrolling (like entering airport identifiers on a Garmin 650, for example). if the buttons where in the same place on the screen every time, I think it'd be better.
 
One lever for slide release, one toggle for safety, one button for mag release, one press to make a loud noise. All with a different tactile feel, all with one hand, in part because mixing them up would usually be bad. John Browning was good at ergonomics, among other things.

But if it really doesn't matter that it takes you 30 seconds to do something instead of 1, then it's all fine.

Which is why while we're still driving cars, it's a good thing that the steering wheel does the steering and there's an actual stick for turn signals, and maybe even 1 or 2 pedals for gas and break, and maybe a gearshift. I kinda like manual controls for lights, AC, wipers, but I don't mind having to screw around with the slower but cheaper interface for the map. I think it's all about convenience and ease of use for the driver/pilot vs saving money for the manufacturer.

The funny part is when they position their cost savings as your feature....and people buy into it.
 
Albany Tom said:
One lever for slide release, one toggle for safety, one button for mag release, one press to make a loud noise. All with a different tactile feel, all with one hand, in part because mixing them up would usually be bad. John Browning was good at ergonomics, among other things.
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Sounds good, but I can't quite work the slide release without rotating my hand way out of firing grip. It's better to use my left hand, either to press the release lever or to pull and release the slide. I prefer the latter, since it's what I do with my PA-63, and I prefer to have the same motion for muscle memory.
 
AV8R_87 said:
The first 90% of the job takes 90% of the time and 90% of the money.
The last 10% of the job takes 90% of the time and 90% of the money.

Or, in the words of a director of maintenance I used to deal with, "come up with your best estimate, double it and add 50%".
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flyingcheesehead said:
<cartoon>
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Then they went up on the mountain and asked "how do we solve this problem?". And they learned about agile. Because, if you don't know what the goal is, who is to define what "done" means? Besides, you're just going to rent it to someone forever anyway, so what's it matter what state it's in, as long as it's always changing a little bit.

Or...the story of the son in law named "software company" who lives in a shed behind the house and spends your money.
 
Software-hardware. There is way too much excess hardware to support unneeded software than required for the function of a vehicle (and an alarming high number of other semi durable consumer goods) than is warranted. An electric stove for example, my own personal one in my home has a mechanical variac and a resistance heating element for each surface burner. A mechanical coiled spring steel thermostat with a mercury bulb switch for the oven that is set by twisting a calibrated dial to pretension the spring. Outdated, archaic, not fitting in with the ever changing trends of what is “in style”? Yes. Still fully functional and performance equal (actually slightly more efficient than modern stoves, doesn’t have to power a control module) after 70 years? Yes. Will it work the rest of my life (and probably my children lifetimes)? Yes..
my 1928 ford, requires exactly one wire to run. Power to the points/coil. Is it multi fuel? Yes, there is a knob by the passenger side to adjust carburetor mixture and a lever behind the steering wheel to adjust timing. It can start and run on any grade of gasoline, the same with ethanol blends up to 100% (depending on air temperature, vapor pressure has an effect). Once warmed up it can run on kerosene, diesel, jet-a, or any ratio of blends of the above. With one wire…

I don’t need a touch screen to tell a computer that I want it to close a relay to turn on the headlights, I want a switch that closes the circuit. An engineer should not be thinking what they can add, but what they can remove and it still works, I don’t know where that concept got reversed (I speculate somebody in marketing).
 
Albany Tom said:
Then they went up on the mountain and asked "how do we solve this problem?". And they learned about agile. Because, if you don't know what the goal is, who is to define what "done" means? Besides, you're just going to rent it to someone forever anyway, so what's it matter what state it's in, as long as it's always changing a little bit.
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There's nothing wrong with agile, there's just something wrong with most of the people who use it because they're doing it wrong because hey, buzzword!

I've seen it work, and it does at least prevent stagnation due to failure to achieve goals that were too large and complex to begin with. 98% of the time, though, it's poorly implemented and leads to easy change for change's sake. Oh, and for the sake of daily standup meetings. :vomit:

Worst I've ever seen: Daily "standup" (that nobody could stand for) meetings that were on average 2.5 hours long.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
There's nothing wrong with agile, there's just something wrong with most of the people who use it because they're doing it wrong because hey, buzzword!

I've seen it work, and it does at least prevent stagnation due to failure to achieve goals that were too large and complex to begin with. 98% of the time, though, it's poorly implemented and leads to easy change for change's sake. Oh, and for the sake of daily standup meetings. :vomit:

Worst I've ever seen: Daily "standup" (that nobody could stand for) meetings that were on average 2.5 hours long.
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I respect the opinion, and I believe in the intent of those who talk about it's merits, but my personal experience and observations lead me to view agile in a similar way that Churchill viewed socialism, except without the anger or morality bits.

No, that's much too harsh. Change the analogy to an old SNL skit, where Dana Carvey and somebody else setup a shop called "Two Dudes Automotive", where they heal your car with crystals. That's kinda how I see it. But I'm old and could be wrong.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
There's nothing wrong with agile, there's just something wrong with most of the people who use it …
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Well, that’s the problem; there’s not enough people smart enough for Agile to be scaled. Put differently, Agile isn’t for the lowest common denominator.

Agile is aspirational and a philosophy, not a standard or framework. The philosophy also shortcuts normal business processes, like documenting your work or, one of my more favorite idiotsyncrasies, creating a unique definition of done where some things are still left undone. Don’t get me started on continuous delivery.

Ten years into my current home, if my builder was routinely coming by to deliver some more value to the house by fixing what was shortcut the first time would be problematic to say the least.
 
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