Things I Learn in IFR Training - Who Knew?

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by WDD, Jan 27, 2021.

  1. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    Read the post from the controller that I just quoted. Everything you said is still true even if you correct for wind.
     
  2. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    The only time I could see it making a difference to a controller is if they want two planes on a parallel course and give them both the same heading. If one corrects for wind and the other doesn't, then they won't be on a parallel course.
     
  3. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    White. Just not very bright, and not shined directly in my eyes. I've noticed no difference in transitioning back outside and seeing lights when using red or white. So I use white, and makes sure it's diffused.
     
  4. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That's similar to my old standard answer to " when assigned a heading, do I fly track or heading?"

    Let' see. ATC tells you to "fly heading..." Do you

    (a) read the dial in front of you and make your turn

    or

    (b) read the OAT, tune the Kollsman to 29.92 to get pressure altitude, whip out your E6B, convert IAS to TAS, ask to go off frequency, call Flight Service for the winds aloft, turn the E6B over, do the wind triangle, figure out the wind correction angle, apply it to the number ATC gave you 5-10 minutes earlier and then make your turn.

    Yes, GPS allows one to fly a track, but ATC heading instructions are still based on a system where some might not have one and where everyone needs to be in the same page.​
     
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  5. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    A good example is the PAR approach of which I've ran probably thousands of. Lets say we're landing runway 12 and in calm conditions the heading is 125 to keep an aircraft on the center line all the way from when approach transfers you to the PAR controller to the threshold of the runway. In a perfect world that heading would never be changed. But we don't live in a perfect world. The wind isn't exactly the same along your 15 mile or so route to where the PAR controllers picks you up until he hands you off to the tower after landing. There are buildings below the route, dust devils, etc that causes you to go off course. That's why the heading given changes several times throughout the approach. One of the items PAR controllers will give their releaving controller is the "hold on" which is the heading on most of your runs that seems to keep an aircraft on the centerline. This of course is subject to constant change but it gives the next controller a rough idea of the heading he needs to use. When that controller is releaved, he will give the next one the hold on he had to use.
     
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  6. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Pattern Altitude

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    When ATC assigns a heading, fly that heading. Do not attempt to correct for wind.

    Controllers know that there is wind that will affect your ground track. They knew that when they picked the heading that they assigned.
     
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  7. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

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    Yes, but you're making things harder for them if they did try allow for the wind (as the controllers around Ottawa seem to do, at least at a WAG level), and may trigger an extra "turn n degrees left/right" call.

    I know ATC assumes — often correctly — that we private pilots are a bunch of yahoos who probably don't even have our DGs set to within 20 degrees of what our mag compasses read, so they're not surprised if they have to adjust our vectors three or four times, but it's still good airmanship not to make it even harder on them (our yourself) than it has to be by deliberately doing something unexpected. Just follow the FARs (or CARs in Canada) and fly the compass heading they give you, then fly a new one if they give you that, etc. etc. and don't try to outthink them. If they say "Fly heading 280", turn the bug on your DG to 280 and maneuver to keep it at the 12:00 position on your DG until you hear otherwise.
     
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  8. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

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    To give a very-common example of that, IFR departures are supposed to hold heading, not runway track, so they'll be drifting with the wind (at various rates depending on their airspeeds, but all in the same direction off the runway track). If you're arriving on vectors from the opposite direction, it's important that you not drift into their protected airspace or vice-versa.
     
  9. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    Good example
     
  10. WDD

    WDD Pattern Altitude

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    Unexpected ways IFR training can drain your wallet. Then again - that’s true for everything about this flying thing.

    So ... got x plane demo to practice going through the various steps and procedures for IFR flying. Well - need a yoke and throttle. Kind of pricy, but I’ll bite. My pc has a good cpu on the mother board, lots of RAM. Graphics card has 4 GB of ram. Wait - it’s not running right. Ah - my graphics card is using shared RAM - has 128 mg of real RAM. I got this x plane error message “Ha - you’ve got to be kidding”.

    Not a problem - I’ll get a graphics card. Oh - now I need a 650 watt power supply. $100? Oh well. Graphics card in need is how much? $500? Blah!!!

    But wait - there’s more. Apparently there is a scarcity of graphics cards because people are using them to run programs for bit coin mining.

    I need to get to the Computer Store at 6:30 in the morning when the truck might show up next Thursday to stand in line to maybe get a voucher to come back when the store opens to buy this thing.

    I’m not even going to try and justify this cost.
     
  11. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    That’s 3-4 hours of actual dual.
     
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  12. WDD

    WDD Pattern Altitude

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    My new monetary unit. Then again - it will all pay for itself now that I’ll be able to mine bit coins......
     
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  13. Justin M

    Justin M Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    Should I try to correct for magnetic deviation?

    It seems like some ATC have said, "Say Heading? 300? Turn left 10 degrees." Multiple different controllers have seemed surprised, specifically at 300.

    I wonder if it is due to magnetic deviation.

    I rent, so each plane has a different deviation and making that adjustment wouldn't be easy; but should I?

    If so, are there any tricks that make it easier to do?

    FTR, the deviation is placarded, but hard to read while flying.
     
  14. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Pattern Altitude

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    Do you mean "magnetic variation" or "compass deviation"?

    Magnetic Variation: The headings given by ATC are magnetic headings, not true (expect for some very limit situations at very high latitude).

    Compass Deviation: When you set your heading indicator from your magnetic compass you should adjust the compass reading based on the compass deviation card on your compass. On most airplanes, the compass deviation is relatively small.
     
  15. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It's probably wind variation. Just make sure your dg isn't precessing and fly the heading they ask. Don't worry about it or over think it, you have enough to worry about flying.
     
  16. Justin M

    Justin M Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    The latter.

    Next time I get to fly, I'm going to have to look harder at the card to see if the deviation is material.
     
  17. Justin M

    Justin M Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    As to your question of the term "Compass Deviation" versus "Magnetic Deviation" I wondered myself before I posted.

    I used the terminology from

    https://www.boldmethod.com/blog/learn-to-fly/aircraft-systems/how-your-magnetic-compass-works/

    which used the term magnetic deviation.

    Also Wikipedia also used the term magnetic deviation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_deviation

    Fly Aeroguard uses both "Magnetic Compass Deviation"

    https://www.flyaeroguard.com/learning-center/deviation_vs_variation/

    Seems like both terms are acceptable. <grin>.
     
  18. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Pattern Altitude

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    They are. I wasn't sure that's what you meant by the question so I used a term that would avoid any confusion.
     
  19. WDD

    WDD Pattern Altitude

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    Variance and deviance are not interchangeable. Variance is the difference in the magnetic field at a location. Deviance is an error in how your compass measures the magnetic field.
     
  20. penaltyvectors

    penaltyvectors Filing Flight Plan

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    Yes, at the beginning of my shift, I don’t really have a good sense of what the wind is doing. But I work at a major airport where I sequence dozens of jets over the same ground track, and once I’ve turned a few planes, I get a very accurate sense of what the wind is doing. When I have a long line of planes on a downwind, or when I’ve been successfully turning planes onto final at the same point, it’s very obvious when someone tries to second guess my heading. The same applies to speed - if I assign everyone 170knots on final, from day to day their ground speed will show anywhere from 180 down to around 120 depending on winds. But it’s very obvious when you’re doing 30 knots faster over the ground than the planes on either side of you.
     
  21. penaltyvectors

    penaltyvectors Filing Flight Plan

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    At terminal facilities, we’re allowed to use something called diverging separation. Basically, if two planes have passed each
    other and I assign headings at least 15 degrees apart, they’re considered to be separated. While you usually don’t want to cut it this close, you can end up with two airplanes about 1/2 mile apart or less from wingtip to wingtip at the same altitude. As long as both are flying correct headings, they’ll never hit. But if one suddenly decides to crab into the wind, things can get very exciting.
     
  22. guzziguy

    guzziguy Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I do this
     
  23. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    I do this too except I try to find the airport first and then use the lights to confirm my guess.

    And I don't sign alligator stones or whatever. :)
     
  24. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    Did you happen to read my post about PARs?
     
  25. penaltyvectors

    penaltyvectors Filing Flight Plan

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    My bad - I did read it but I didn’t process that both posts were by the same person.
     
  26. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    Welcome to the forum by the way. A lot of controller questions, you can pick up the slack. :)
     
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  27. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Cleared for Takeoff

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    This is one of those topics which contains an extraordinarily simple concept but is often made dangerously complicated by overanalyzation.

    If told by ATC to fly a heading, fly that heading.

    Get that heading from your magnetic direction indicator. The source of this information may be a magnetic compass, to which a DG may be set. Or an HSI which gets its heading from a magnetometer and is periodically cross-checked against the magnetic compass to ensure accuracy. Either way... fly the magnetic heading given.

    Do not correct for winds. Do not fly a track. If assigned a heading, fly that heading. Period.
     
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  28. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

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    I grew up thinking the 70s (pre-disco) were the last decade of good music. It's funny how many last decades there are — it's like the "Imminent death of the Internet predicted!" meme over the past 30 years.
     
  29. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    And check your DG for precess. :)
     
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  30. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

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    That’s because we want to make sure all the pilots are doing the same thing not because the controllers have any idea what the wind is... fly the heading assigned.
     
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  31. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

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    Some day things will change — for example, Nav Canada is pushing in the ICAO to switch the international system from magnetic directions to true (runways and vectors in the far north of Canada are already true, b/c a magnetic compass is nearly useless up there anyway). After that, a transition from heading to track for ATC vectors will be a logical next step.

    But for now, fly the system we have today, not the system we might have in 10–15 years. That means (in most of the world's airspace) magnetic directions rather than true, and compass headings rather than RNAV tracks.
     
  32. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Pattern Altitude

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    That's already used in some places. I used True for airways, vectors, and runways a decade ago at Thule AB (BGTL). Switched to True after departing Upper Navik (UP) toward Thule (THT) on the W20. Radar vectors, from Thule Approach, were in degrees True, but they were still headings, not tracks.

    Screenshot 2021-02-28 at 2.12.14 PM.jpg
     
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  33. WDD

    WDD Pattern Altitude

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    What I learned today. I flew X country VFR for 2 hours. With the IFR training, I paid more attention to my altitude and course consistency. What I learned was either 1)I’ve gotten a lot worse 2) I was always off but didn’t realize it. I remember a meme with a truck crossing railroad tracks - new pilot on side of the truck. A train labeled IFR Training is barreling down in it LOL :)
     
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  34. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Crazy, isn’t it? That IFR flying is cra cra!
     
  35. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    eman 6 years after his avatar photo was taken. Hey, you the one who said cra cra and made me google it and find this:rofl:

    upload_2021-4-4_1-35-49.jpeg
     
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  36. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    hahaha, that dude is gangsta!
     
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  37. David Megginson

    David Megginson Cleared for Takeoff

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    Mostly 2), probably. With everything I do (music, flying, foreign languages, etc) my critical ability improves first, then skill follows — that means I'm always more aware of my shortcomings and feeling stuck just before I make a big leap forward.
     
  38. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Pattern Altitude

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    makes memo to find a Cookie Monster hat
     
  39. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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  40. WDD

    WDD Pattern Altitude

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    Hoping this is a somewhat interesting, perhaps at times humorous thread to help other in IFR training.

    Today I learned -
    It finally clicked when training yesterday. On an approach, fly the heading indicator first, correct slightly as needed by CDI. I had been doing it backwards, which explains why I was chasing the needles. I made an approach that wasn't that wretched yesterday.

    It also clicked why an HSI would be such an improvement.
     
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