Runup area/Hold short Etiquette

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by FlyingMonkey, Feb 19, 2020.

  1. FlyingMonkey

    FlyingMonkey Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Here is the situation- fairly busy afternoon at a class D airport with multiple aircraft in the large runup area and 2 already holding short. You are VFR and so is the guy you end up next to in the run up area. You arrive a bit after him in the run up area but are done with your runup.

    Question #1 -Do you pull up to the line of aircraft holding short and become third in line? I say yes - the guy next to you could be sorting out any number of issues, changing his mind about any number of things, etc etc.


    You pull up and are third in line. One aircraft departs, you become #2. The aircraft in front of you departs. As you are pulling up to the hold short line the guy who was next to you in the runup pulls up next to you (the hold short area is very wide) and contacts tower on the radio as he is rolling up.
    Question #2 - Was this poor form on his part?

    Spoiler: Tower made him wait and had me depart first.
     
  2. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 En-Route

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    Get in line, call tower...sometimes student pilots and twins can take forever to do their runup.
    No, they are also just trying to get in line, unless they were trying to cut in front, but that’s pointless since tower will decide who’s next, that’s why you call them.
     
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  3. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

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    I don’t think you did anything rude.
     
  4. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Cleared for Takeoff

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    Brings up a point that I wondered about. I’m not at a busy airport, but no matter where, is there an acceptable way, where you wouldn’t be adding to radio “chatter” for a student pilot to tell the plane behind them “you can go ahead of me”?

    If both pilots are in line of sight of course one could gesture, point at the other pilot, then the runway and thumbs up for “go on, its ok” but if not because of positioning to communicate to them on radio?

    if a towered airport I’m just guessing one could tell ground that you are needing more time, but not sure if that is acceptable as it isn’t your job to tell them how to prioritize.

    So, if a student pilot knows they are needing more time and doesn’t want to jam up the pilot behind them, how would you give them the slot?
     
  5. cowman

    cowman En-Route

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    Ok read that wrong the first time around but yeah I believe that's the correct way.

    I've always understood the runup area to be somewhere to get out of the way so you can get ready to go and the line to be for planes ready for takeoff.
     
  6. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Get in line for takeoff.
     
  7. Pugs

    Pugs Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yea, kind of a dick move on his part if you were rolling forward and he was sitting still. No so much I'd wave my fist at him Muttley Whiplash style but still. :D
     
  8. Jim K

    Jim K Pre-takeoff checklist

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    1)yes
    2)yes; especially considering it takes like a minute for a small plane to clear the runway.
     
  9. Daryl

    Daryl Filing Flight Plan

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    I always viewed the run-up area as a place that I could get out of the way, take care of anything that I needed to, and prepare both my plane and myself for takeoff. When I'm ready, I'll taxi to the hold short line. Feel free to "pass" me while I'm in the run-up area, provided that you are 100% ready to go once you get to that hold-short line!
     
  10. Rockymountain

    Rockymountain Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I would just say that in the VFR case, first come is usually first served, but that there are also IFR aircraft that may need to be sequenced, and it also makes no sense to release a slower aircraft in front of a faster aircraft going the same direction. So when you are ready, contact tower, and try not to block access to the runway, in case tower needs to get someone out before you.
     
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  11. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 En-Route

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    That’s hard not to do in most smaller airports, if my experience, the tower just has them do an intersection takeoff.
    At non towered airports, I announced that I am waiting on IFR clearance and repeat as necessary if I see a plane taxiing behind me. Only time that doesn’t work if the other pilot is not monitoring CTAF, but there’s nothing I can do in that case.
     
  12. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-takeoff checklist

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    This very scenario has happened to me before as well. I did the same as you.

    Side note: I must run through my checklist faster than most, as it seems to me that I'm always passing people in the run-up area, even though everyone is VFR, etc.
     
  13. Arnold

    Arnold Line Up and Wait

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    My pre-taxi checklist includes almost all items necessary before takeoff. Controls, instrument, gas, trim. All that is left for the run-up area is mag and carb heat checks. Time in run-up area - 15 sec. A bit shorter if the antique brakes are not holding well. Sometimes it doesn't seem to matter how hard I push on those little brake pedals.
     
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  14. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The easiest way is to not block them and be in a position where they can easily pass you.

    Failing that, I would not hesitate "adding to the chatter" to say, "twin holding short of 3 behind the 172. We need more time. Pass me."
     
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  15. RussR

    RussR Cleared for Takeoff

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    The runup area is not a line of airplanes waiting to depart. It's where you go to do your runup, THEN you get in line to depart. Whoever's ready first taxies up to the hold short line first. Not a big deal.

    I have flown with pilots who will literally be sitting in the runup area for 15 minutes. VFR. Running checklists, setting radios, loading flight plans, adjusting their seat, whatever. There's no need to wait behind those people if you are ready to go.

    An airplane pulls up next to you at the hold short line at a towered airport? So what? If there's room, that's probably what they should have done, to get out of the way of other aircraft. You've already called the tower ready to go, right? So the tower know the sequence of who's ready in what order. The only reason to think anything about it is if it was a non-towered field and the other pilot cut in front of you - as you were ready to go - and departed first. That would be impolite.

    @LongRoadBob - the radio is there to be used. If it helps relay information between two pilots, then that's a perfect use for it. Just did that myself yesterday.
     
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  16. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    I radio the tower that I'm all ready to go whenever they're ready for me. Could be the airplane in front of me si waiting for an IFR clearance. Could be all sort of things. I let the tower sort it out.
     
  17. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    How long one spends doing a run up or doing other stuff before they are ready does not figure into the equation for me.
     
  18. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

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    Depends on the airport.

    At KFTW there can be 3 small singles at the hold short line. Nothing rude there to hold and wait as the tower gives clearances.
    At T67 there can be 2 small singles at the line. It's non-towered and it's very common to hit the PTT and ask the other plane if they're ready to go.
     
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  19. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    I'm slow on running my pre takeoff checklist, so it's pretty much SOP for people to pull next to me and be done before me. Doesn't bother me in the least. The last thing on my mind is someone waiting for me to finish my run up in fear of cutting me off, that would be a distraction for me.

    The airport I fly out of has a large run up area with plenty of room for turbine aircraft to get by. Protocol is for piston aircraft to stay right, out of the big guys way, since most have departure times on IFR plans.

    Once, I was departing IFR and there were four aircraft waiting when I finished my run up. Typically ground will ask me to let them know when I'm ready to go if I'm flying IFR, the ground guy told me to pass the other airplanes to the left and I was cleared to depart immediately...….. I didn't make eye contact with the guys waiting, lol.

    Per Ravioli's post, I might ask at an untowered airport if I think it's necessary.
     
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  20. Skip Miller

    Skip Miller Final Approach

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    Taxi behind the last one waiting and then stake your claim: "Tower, N123 is ready for takeoff, #3 in line, holding short." Then the tower will do its thing and nobody can cut you in line without the tower's permission. -Skip
     
  21. alfadog

    alfadog Final Approach

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    I don't see him doing anything wrong. Assuming you've already called, the tower knows the sequence.
     
  22. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The lack of etiquette I've run into normally involves someone taking a long time to do a runup and they are positioned in such a way that nobody can get around. Sometimes that happens when plane #1 does a runup, plane #2 pulls close enough to do a runup, then plane #3 has no place to go so does a run up on the taxiway and takes a long time. Planes #1 and #2 depart, leaving #3 taking his time when plane #4 has to wait for room because #3 won't pull forward.

    I had a case a number of years ago where plane #1 was stopped at an angle in the runup area, blocking access to the rwy. I pulled into the runup area to do my thing, figuring the plane in front of me would finish first anyway. That wasn't the case. I had to wait a (Class D), while another plane was waiting behind me.

    If the hold short line is wide enough for 2 planes, I figure that's OK since it frees up the run up area behind. Whoever gets there first gets to call tower first.
     
  23. dreyna14

    dreyna14 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The restaurant at KCMA is really popular and the field often gets really busy around lunchtime. The runup area turns into a parking lot with planes waiting for arrivals. I've sat there for 20 minutes waiting to get out. Ground will often instruct planes in the runup area to contact them once runup is complete so that they can help sequence them for departures. It's usually whoever calls first that get's to leave first but they've squeezed IFR traffic by me even when I was #1 at the hold-short line.
     
  24. FlyingMonkey

    FlyingMonkey Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I was #3 in the line. By the time he finished his runup the #2 guy was taking the runway and I was pulling forward to be #1. He came from the runup area on the side right up to the hold short line next to me and called tower before I did since I wasn't going to call tower while the #2 guy was still crossing the hold short line! I believe he was trying to cut the line. I thought it was really poor form.
     
  25. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    Controller priorities:

    1. Separate aircraft and issue safety advisories.
    2. First come, first served.

    If you are ready, tell the tower you are ready - you're in the queue.
     
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  26. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 En-Route

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    Another pet peeve, if the tower says “no delay” then power up and start moving immediately, then you acknowledge it.
    I can’t tell you how many times I see them sit there for 5 seconds or more making the call, or worst, finishing their takeoff checklist!
     
  27. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    How about driving right passed the run-up pad and blocking the entrance to the runway then proceeding to sit there for 5 minutes and get IFR clearance, happened to me in KLNK and yes it was a Cirrus.

    I wanted to turn around and do an intersection departure but there was already someone behind me! I shut off the engine on the taxiway at a class C, sitting second in line for departure that day.
     
  28. N1120A

    N1120A Cleared for Takeoff

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    Some airports want you to just pull out of run up and call tower. Others want you to call ground, but usually they tell you that.

    Lol. Of course it was a Cirrus
     
  29. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Gotta call ground to get to the run up pad, dude drove right passed it, right up to the 35 hold short line then turned into the wind and sat there for 5 minutes getting his crap together.
    Can even argue he was blocking 32 since he was well passed the 32 approach line.

    upload_2020-2-19_10-38-48.png
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
  30. FlyingMonkey

    FlyingMonkey Pre-takeoff checklist

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    And yes it was a Cirrus....:D
     
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  31. alfadog

    alfadog Final Approach

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    That is why I said "assuming you already called the tower." What I do and what I recommend you do it is as soon as you are done with your run-up and rolling towards the takeoff line, call the tower and say "Bugsplatter 1234 Charlie Echo, Niner left, ready for takeoff in sequence."
     
  32. alfadog

    alfadog Final Approach

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    [​IMG]
     
  33. Kevin Eggert

    Kevin Eggert Filing Flight Plan

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    My opinion is that you stay in line until there is no one ready to go in front of you. Then the first one ready to go is up. In your situation with a runup are off to the side, I think you were completely correct to get in line when you were finished with the runup and checklists. You did nothing wrong. For this other guy to try to get his spot back seems a bit rude.
     
  34. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I sometimes run-up before calling ground, most of the time its because I want to sit in one spot for a while and get ALL my crap together, then taxi in a circle and check if there was anything leaking onto the ground where I was sitting. Then I call up ground and taxi directly to the runway bypassing the runup pad and whoever may be sitting there.

    A lot of training flights sit on the run up pad, and sit and sit and sit, I would not wait for them to take the runway first, no way.

    First plane ready to depart should be leaving the runup areas and not waiting for the guy who was in the box before them.
     
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  35. FlyingMonkey

    FlyingMonkey Pre-takeoff checklist

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    That's how I felt. Seems like he should have pulled up behind me instead of trying to cut in front.
     
  36. forsonsinc

    forsonsinc Pre-Flight

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    Someone went through the grass to get around a plane when i was in training....no not me ,I just was told by my instructor
     
  37. RussR

    RussR Cleared for Takeoff

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    I know I keep trying to give the other guy the benefit of the doubt, but it's still possible he was not being a jerk.

    In the runup area, I'm usually on ground frequency. Then when I'm done, I switch to tower and taxi up to the hold short line. So it's possible he had no idea if you had called tower yet or not, he just called when he switch over. Which just happened to be before you called. I still don't necessarily see a foul or poor form.
     
  38. FlyingMonkey

    FlyingMonkey Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Understood about the frequencies. But why not pull up behind me in line with all the other aircraft? Why pull up beside? Even if he thought I might be IFR tower would not let me leave the run up area unless my release was imminent.
     
  39. Dana

    Dana Cleared for Takeoff

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    I do that all the time. Sometimes I take off from the grass, too.
     
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  40. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

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    Anyone else love to laugh at "Bug Destroyer 666, ready to go IN SEQUENCE"?

    WTF does that mean?

    Are you ever ready to go "Out of Sequence"?
    Where exactly in "the sequence" are they?

    Sounds Professional, I guess.