MOSAIC does NOTHING to lower the cost of GA

AlphaPilotFlyer said:
DPE issue is less of checkride cost, but time and cost required in waiting and staying current, renting a plane for 2-3 days to fly to DPE, ...not to mention repeating if one needs to repeat the ride (some applicants bring CFI with to immediately re train and sign off in hopes of re-doing ride while there. the wait times and associated costs can add 3-6 months on to students and thousands of dollars over course of most.

absolutely no reason for it, and faa has done nothing, other than allow DPEs to work outside their districts and travel.. The jet and turbo prop 142 schools have no such shortage. I know airline capts dropping their trips because they make more $ doing GA check rides.
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The fact that applicants are taking an instructor along in anticipation of failure is an indication to me that they could use some more study/practice time to start with.
 
DJTorrente said:
I disagree about root cause.

The Otto cycle was discovered in 1876; Ford Motor Company was able to build 14 million Model T's by 1927 -- one car (of just that one model) for every 10 US citizens, in less than 50 years.

It's been over 120 years since Kitty Hawk. I don't have to wonder what would have happened if Henry Ford had to face the "Federal Automobile Administration" -- we have the front row seat.
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I would suggest you go read the actual history of Henry Ford and what he did face trying to get his company going and his battles with ALAM.

DJTorrente said:
Regulation of the machines and their use of them have effectively prevented their widespread adoption.
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That horse is just a greasy spot on the pavement because it's been beat for so long.
 
MauleSkinner said:
And this probably has more to do with interest than anything else.
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I don't think so. There's two reactions I've always gotten from people who find out I'm a pilot:

1) 10-20% "Isn't that dangerous?" And that provides an opportunity to talk about how it really isn't very dangerous provided you're willing to train and maintain currency properly, and don't fly birds that aren't well maintained, and that you have a lot of control over your own safety as a pilot.

2) 80-90% "Oh wow, that's so cool! I've always wished I could do that."

There are plenty of people who would like to fly. I've talked with a couple of friends who were quite serious in the last year or so. One was looking at a possible career change, and decided that he probably wouldn't be able to get a first class medical. Still interested in recreational, BUT... hold that thought for a moment. The other was super enthusiastic, and he's the kind of person who dives into new hobbies all the way and I think he'd make a really great pilot. He ended up deciding that he simply can't afford it... AND that's what the other one decided too.

There is plenty of demand, if the cost can be controlled sufficiently.
 
Doc Holliday said:
I would suggest you go read the actual history of Henry Ford and what he did face trying to get his company going and his battles with ALAM.
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Henry ford’s story is definitely one worth learning, from his developing his first car, starting a successful car company with investors the selling his share to start another one he had full control of, his legal battle against brayton who claimed his patent meant Henry had to pay him a royalty, his reaction to the model “a” that had been developed without his knowledge, the fordson tractor, the fliver, the forthought to plant plantations of trees for the lumber he would need decades later…. He was different.
 
Baked Potato said:
Dealers don't like cash - they want long term loans and the chance to sit you down with the 'finance' guy who wants to sell you a bunch of add-ons to increase the margins.
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They always try that stuff and I just walk out. Then they came running out as I was putting the key in the door of the old reliable truck I drove into the dealership with. They had a different tune they were singing ... :dunno:
 
Baked Potato said:
Waaay too responsible. Dealers don't like cash - they want long term loans and the chance to sit you down with the 'finance' guy who wants to sell you a bunch of add-ons to increase the margins.
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The shady ones do, when I bought my truck (in 2009 lol) I had been working all day on the farm and looked pretty scrubby and I had to go to the “city” to buy a few things. Since my beat up ‘78 dodge truck was absolutely on its last leg I drove through a few lots and saw an early ‘90’s 3/4 ton that was marked around what I was looking to spend. The salesman had another idea.. get this nice 4 year old dodge 1ton 4x4 and we can finance it in house for 5 years, zero down, interest only payments at 18% and one balloon payment at the end. You can pay it off earlier but it gets you in the truck today… and agreed to 68% book price for the sale. I read the sales agreement, made them point out and highlight the part of the sales agreement that said there was no penalty for early payoff, the sale price, and interest accrument terms, that stated the interest begins the first of the month after the sale. I signed the paperwork with the finance guy then walked with my copy of the agreement in hand to the front desk and wrote a check for sale price,taxes and transfer fees to pay off the “loan” in full. They were not happy, but I don’t feel guilty, they were being predator loaners so to heck with them.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I don't think so. There's two reactions I've always gotten from people who find out I'm a pilot:

1) 10-20% "Isn't that dangerous?" And that provides an opportunity to talk about how it really isn't very dangerous provided you're willing to train and maintain currency properly, and don't fly birds that aren't well maintained, and that you have a lot of control over your own safety as a pilot.

2) 80-90% "Oh wow, that's so cool! I've always wished I could do that."

There are plenty of people who would like to fly. I've talked with a couple of friends who were quite serious in the last year or so. One was looking at a possible career change, and decided that he probably wouldn't be able to get a first class medical. Still interested in recreational, BUT... hold that thought for a moment. The other was super enthusiastic, and he's the kind of person who dives into new hobbies all the way and I think he'd make a really great pilot. He ended up deciding that he simply can't afford it... AND that's what the other one decided too.

There is plenty of demand, if the cost can be controlled sufficiently.
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“Interested in flying” is a very different thing from “interested in making the commitment to flying.” The latter is required, but the former is down substantially from 50 years ago as well.

How many kids these days have model airplanes hanging in their bedrooms? Heck, you could blame Revell and Guillows for destroying GA if you wanted to.
 
Doc Holliday said:
And my point was DPE's, not the FAA, have created the problem
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the DPE program was never intended as a full time job. it was for experienced instuctors to also mentor. My initial rides were with airline pilots that remained engaged in GA, who often hung around the airport on days off.

we normally scheduled a check ride a week prior with no problem. My DPE friends can't even answer their phone any more and constantly inadated with calls....many are burned out. one the other end many DPEs are making huge incomes on the back of the tax payers funding the agency and that are needed for GA to survive... a protected monopoly thanks to faa, same protection afforded to legacy GA manufacturers....

the problem is FAA when it comes to GA.
 
AlphaPilotFlyer said:
the DPE program was never intended as a full time job. it was for experienced instuctors to also mentor. My initial rides were with airline pilots that remained engaged in GA, who often hung around the airport on days off.
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Where is that written that DPE's are not suppose to use their designation full time? I attended DPE Initial and recurrent training and don't recall that ever being brought up. There were limits on the number of exams that could be given in a day, but absolutely nothing about it must be only done part time.

And in an area with high demand why would you only want these DPE's giving less exams? Or is it the income they are deriving from their service what's bothering you?

AlphaPilotFlyer said:
we normally scheduled a check ride a week prior with no problem. My DPE friends can't even answer their phone any more and constantly inadated with calls....many are burned out. one the other end many DPEs are making huge incomes on the back of the tax payers funding the agency and that are needed for GA to survive..
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Those that are burned out need to hand their designation in and let someone else do it. Instead they hang on to it and give fewer checkrides.

Those DPE's that are doing the maximum number of checks? Seems to me your problem there is jealousy of the income they are bringing in. Those that are doing the maximum or close to it deserve that income, do you have a clue of what's involved and how much time it takes to earn that money. It's not as if they are just sitting behind a desk and piles of cash are being placed there.

I'm old enough to remember when a person to go to the GADO and schedule a checkride with an Inspector, for free. People complained it was too scary to let a big bad Inspector give these rides and we need more DPE's. So now it's next to impossible to get a Inspector checkride and people like you complain it's not fair these DPE's want to be compensated.

AlphaPilotFlyer said:
. a protected monopoly thanks to faa, same protection afforded to legacy GA manufacturers....

the problem is FAA when it comes to GA.
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That same song and dance, never changes does it? :rolleyes:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
….There is plenty of demand, if the cost can be controlled sufficiently.
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There’s 99 ways to control costs, but sole ownership ain’t one of them.

When people tell me “Oh, I always wanted to do x/y/z,” my first reaction used to be why didn’t you? Once I figured out they’re just trying to be polite by feigning interest, I quit asking.

The other side of cost is deciding where to invest your free time, talent, and treasure. My brother in law is a golf addict; one day, shortly after I bought into our club, he asked how much I had spent to get from zero to trained and ownership in the club. We found out he spent more on golf in an average year than I had to get to be an equity owner.

On a recurring basis, I could swing sole ownership of a 201/equivalent and the associated OpEx at 150hrs/year for about what he spends on golf in any given year.
 
Lindberg said:
If there's excessive demand for your services, you aren't charging enough. Tell your friends too raise their prices.
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...which is a signal to competitors and new entrants to enter the field, increasing supply and easing price level.

Amazingly, 250 years later, Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations is STILL right!

Oops, the FAA is glacial on making new DPEs, effectively preventing new supply from coming on line to relieve pricing pressure, or at least clear the backlog in demand.
 
DJTorrente said:
Oops, the FAA is glacial on making new DPEs, effectively preventing new supply from coming on line to relieve pricing pressure, or at least clear the backlog in demand.
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No, the FAA can only support a set number of these DPE's. When over half refuse to do checks or only do a bare minimum. now what? The correct answer would be to require the minimum be increased, but then the part timers will complain that interferes with their other job or social life. You could just start firing the loafers and appoint new DPE's that want to do it, then you have to deal with all the ones that think the designation belongs to them and is their right.

The FAA does not set DPE pricing, nor do they make staffing positions to "relieve pricing pressure".

Here's a solution: Require all DPE request to go through the FAA and let the agency assign and schedule the DPE. Once a DPE refuses a set number of appointments require him to give up his designation. The high volume DPE's will protest, the low volume DPE's will call it unfair and the applicants will complain it's not fair that they can't select who they want. o_O
 
DJTorrente said:
...which is a signal to competitors and new entrants to enter the field, increasing supply and easing price level.

Amazingly, 250 years later, Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations is STILL right!

Oops, the FAA is glacial on making new DPEs, effectively preventing new supply from coming on line to relieve pricing pressure, or at least clear the backlog in demand.
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The number of DPEs has increased significantly in the last two years.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Here's a solution: Require all DPE request to go through the FAA and let the agency assign and schedule the DPE. Once a DPE refuses a set number of appointments require him to give up his designation. The high volume DPE's will protest, the low volume DPE's will call it unfair and the applicants will complain it's not fair that they can't select who they want. o_O
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They could at least go back to the FAA doing all initial CFI rides…just a small step that I’m sure everyone would be happy with. ;)
 
Doc Holliday said:
Where is that written that DPE's are not suppose to use their designation full time? I attended DPE Initial and recurrent training and don't recall that ever being brought up. There were limits on the number of exams that could be given in a day, but absolutely nothing about it must be only done part time.
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Must? I don't think that was the assertion... Just "May".

Is there something that says DPEs must use their designation full time?

TCABM said:
There’s 99 ways to control costs, but sole ownership ain’t one of them.
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Well, compared to multiple owner/club setups, for sure. But depending on what you're trying to do, costs can be controlled in other ways such that sole ownership is possible.

Doc Holliday said:
No, the FAA can only support a set number of these DPE's. When over half refuse to do checks or only do a bare minimum. now what?
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What's the number, and why can they only support a set number? Obviously they've gotta give all the DPEs their own rides once a year (?) but other than that, it doesn't seem like it'd be too difficult to add more.

Yes, I think there should be *some* minimum requirement, but it doesn't need to be "minimum 300 rides per year" or something like that. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone who's an active airline pilot to also be a DPE in their spare time if they want. One of the longest-serving DPEs around here is exactly that, though I think he's retired from the airlines by now.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Must? I don't think that was the assertion... Just "May".

Is there something that says DPEs must use their designation full time?
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DPE’s are suppose to support the program. It’s not a designation that they can add to their certificates and use for bragging rights.



flyingcheesehead said:
Well, compared to multiple owner/club setups, for sure. But depending on what you're trying to do, costs can be controlled in other ways such that sole ownership is possible.


What's the number, and why can they only support a set number? Obviously they've gotta give all the DPEs their own rides once a year (?) but other than that, it doesn't seem like it'd be too difficult to add more.
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DPE’s require oversight and that oversight is provided by GA Ops ASI’s as one of their many job functions. In recent years the FAA has decreased the number of Ops Inspectors and increased the number of AW Inspectors.

The numbers are set by FAA HQ and the division that has oversight of designations.

flyingcheesehead said:
Yes, I think there should be *some* minimum requirement, but it doesn't need to be "minimum 300 rides per year" or something like that. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone who's an active airline pilot to also be a DPE in their spare time if they want. One of the longest-serving DPEs around here is exactly that, though I think he's retired from the airlines by now.
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The minimum use to be 5 a year. For the bubba that hangs around the FBO and uses his designation as a bragging right and continually turns away request it hurts those needing the service. Try to take away Bubba’s designation and he lawyers up and fights for his “right” to keep his DPE because he believes it’s a lifetime appointment.
 
Doc Holliday said:
The minimum use to be 5 a year. For the bubba that hangs around the FBO and uses his designation as a bragging right and continually turns away request it hurts those needing the service. Try to take away Bubba’s designation and he lawyers up and fights for his “right” to keep his DPE because he believes it’s a lifetime appointment.
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Yeah, 5 a year is not much at all, and hardly seems worth having someone if that's all they're gonna do. Seems like maybe 25 would be more reasonable minimum.

How many checkrides are given in a year by DPEs?
 
shouldn't the DPE location be an important consideration? An area with limited VMC would reduce the opportunities for the DPE to give a checkride.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Yeah, 5 a year is not much at all, and hardly seems worth having someone if that's all they're gonna do. Seems like maybe 25 would be more reasonable minimum.

How many checkrides are given in a year by DPEs?
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avweb.com

FAA Adds More DPEs To Ease Certification Delays

The Designated Pilot Examiner (DPE) shortage is improving, according to officials from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA).
avweb.com avweb.com

“While the FAA currently authorizes 935 DPEs to administer tests, 75% of tests are administered by only 350 examiners, with 50% of tests administered by roughly only 200 DPEs. This gross lack of active examiners is exacerbating an already significant pilot and examiner shortage that threatens the stability of our national air service network, particularly for regional airlines and the communities they serve,”
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1763650339757.png
 
StraightnLevel said:
avweb.com

FAA Adds More DPEs To Ease Certification Delays

The Designated Pilot Examiner (DPE) shortage is improving, according to officials from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA).
avweb.com avweb.com



View attachment 147335
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Thank you for the data! Real data is my favorite...

Whoa. If 200 DPEs are doing half the tests, that means those DPEs are averaging 350 rides per year. Not a bad gig if you can get it all scheduled the way you want, but if 1/7 of them are CFI rides that's 4 days/week of checkrides all day.

I wonder how many of those are CFI rides vs. the traditionally shorter rides.
 
That DPE utilization distribution stat is wild. Talk about tyranny of incumbency run amok. They need to crack that walled garden up and start pulling the weeds out.

Adjusting por population inflation, the FAA has effectively cut DPE allocations positions since 2011. That needs to be reversed dramatically. They just gotta crap or get off the pot: If they're going to allow the non-contributing zeros to keep the designation, then they gotta increase the supply. Otherwise it's time to throw production quotas and get the vanity credential chasers out of the space.
 
StraightnLevel said:
avweb.com

FAA Adds More DPEs To Ease Certification Delays

The Designated Pilot Examiner (DPE) shortage is improving, according to officials from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA).
avweb.com avweb.com



View attachment 147335
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OK, so looking at this some more.

Like I said earlier, that top group of 200 DPEs is averaging 352 rides per year each.

The middle group, the bottom of the top or the next 150 DPEs, is averaging 235 rides per year each.

So, the bottom group of 619 DPEs is averaging 57 rides per year each... But I'm sure that's quite a wide distribution.

I wonder where Jason Blair got his data?
 
Again, the DPE program never was intended to support it as career, and in years past expectation was 3-5 rides per month as needed. I don’t think the non active DPEs will give up the designation too willingly, and FAA will have to formally change or make a policy requiring a minimum # of rides at least proportional to need. They are currently revamping program to a nationwide controlled program rather than individual FSDO, so likely some changes coming.

my designation was pulled due to lack of activity after about 12 months of not doing anything…. My new airline policy required no outside commercial flying (I was DER, not DPE, but same oversight was required and they wanted to cut the dead weight when budgets got tight and certification staff thinned). There was a few of us that let it go so not risk the airline gig, but a few others rolled the dice and kept their designation and stayed active…. a couple of guys had small flight schools with accelerated programs and needed ability to give rides.

I mentioned the info in Straightnlevel’s chart in a AIRFACTS journal article, pointing out disproportion of DPE vs applicants. The reader feed back section had many younger and/or new pilots comment about their frustration and cost with getting checkride and how their training time was extended several months due to it and associated cost staying current and flying long distances for the ride. Some new pilots wrote they can’t wait to be done with GA, citing stupid high cost for old planes and checkride cost and hassle. Many comments included profanity, but made good points considering many new pilots will owe well over $100k in higher interest personal loans and require months longer to get through it. Here’s article link…. Skip the article as the comments-especially the later comments- are better read.

airfactsjournal.com

The Corsair C172-V8 Experiment Update #3—Reader’s Suggestions : Air Facts Journal

Unfortunately, it became clear that FAA leadership had no interest in supporting such a solution—whether as an experimental conversion for certified airframes or via a STC (a certification that would allow owners to replace their original engine with ours on certified aircraft)—regardless of the...
airfactsjournal.com airfactsjournal.com

Too bad, GA needs more private participation going forward and airplane pilots made up a significant number of aircraft owners in the past. Many seem to feel GA as just a means to an end and resentful due to their experience….not all, as I stay active in often helping out a local school and club (I still can’t get paid to fly outside job but enjoy it), and work with some real motivated pilots that truly have the same passion I had and will likely continue in GA. Currently working with a young pilot that’s a marine struggling to afford flying… letting him use my experimental airplane for comm checkride next week as he has to fly over 4 hours for it each way and rental cost would be $1200 for the commute alone…. This spared him the almost 2 month wait for a local ride.
 
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AlphaPilotFlyer said:
Again, the DPE program never was intended to support it as career, and in years past expectation was 3-5 rides per month as needed. I don’t think the non active DPEs will give up the designation too willingly, and FAA will have to formally change or make a policy requiring a minimum # of rides at least proportional to need. They are currently revamping program to a nationwide controlled program rather than individual FSDO, so likely some changes coming.
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That change happened 4+ years ago.
 
Again…many of the DPEs signed on for part time gig and not interested in doing 10-40 rides a month now needed in areas. They will have to force many to surrender, and replace which will be a long process and likely cause further delays in rides…. FAA has done little to address this issue for years regardless of AOPA and EAA efforts and backlash at FSDOs, other than remove region restrictions.

4 years or ten, no difference in results. GA is dying and FAA does little to help it.

Back to orginal topic ….mosaic will help pressure Cessna, piper and cirrus in lowering cost for trainers, as LSA factory built options become available in larger numbers at far less acquisition and operating costs , But do little to reduce cost of legacy fleet which will continue to be GA fleet staple for decades, which is what is most needed.
 
MauleSkinner said:
It doesn’t matter how much pressure it applies. It can’t force Cessna, Piper, or Cirrus into a market in which they don’t want to participate.
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This, precisely.

Cirrus sees the SR-20 as the trainer, the SR-22/T as the upgrade, and the SF50 as the aspirational "forever plane" in their line-up. They're winning the sales battle running away - why would they change anything they are doing?

Textron just canceled the Bonanza and Baron, arguably two of the best performing planes in the GA piston segment. Had they added TKS and BRS, they could truly challenge Cirrus, but they chose to shut them down instead. Three years ago they bought Pipistrel. Has anyone seen a certified Panthera yet? They're way too busy selling King Airs and Citations to care about us.

Piper's line goes straight from the Archer ($600K) to the M350 Malibu ($1.5-2M). That's a really big hole in the lineup, right where Cirrus'; SR2x sits.

What Mosaic will do is allow a bunch of less expensive European LSAs into the US market. That's good for $100 hamburger runs and casual flyers, but it won't change anything about the markets that Cirrus, et al are serving.
 
StraightnLevel said:
What Mosaic will do is allow a bunch of less expensive European LSAs into the US market. That's good for $100 hamburger runs and casual flyers, but it won't change anything about the markets that Cirrus, et al are serving.
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If you could get a new Sling TSI prebuilt with a chute for say $300k, that could take quite a bit away from a Cirrus at $1.2 million. Yes they aren't equal in speed/payload, but might fit a lot of missions. Not a solution for the very low end, but a potentially attractive niche for the right plane.
 
Hang 4 said:
If you could get a new Sling TSI prebuilt with a chute for say $300k, that could take quite a bit away from a Cirrus at $1.2 million. Yes they aren't equal in speed/payload, but might fit a lot of missions. Not a solution for the very low end, but a potentially attractive niche for the right plane.
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I don't really think that it will. The SR-20 starts at $675K; the $1.2M is for a SR22T, which is a MUCH more capable aircraft. [https://cirrusaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/United_States_SR20_PriceList_2025_G7.pdf]

Meanwhile, an actual factory Sling TSi 915 is currently listed on Barnstormers for $380K. Add certification and I would expect the price to go up, not down. [https://www.barnstormers.com/category-18996-Experimental--Sling.html]

At $380K you're competing with a whole lot of far more capable used planes, so what's really changing is availability of new low-$$$ planes for the people flying SP who can't use the faster, larger planes.
 
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AlphaPilotFlyer said:
GA is dying and FAA does little to help it.
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As been said many times, the reason the Part 91 recreational GA is dying is self induced and not the FAAs fault. And in all seriousness, I believe MOSAIC will be the last effort by the FAA to jump start that long declining market sector.
AlphaPilotFlyer said:
mosaic will help pressure Cessna, piper and cirrus in lowering cost for trainers,
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Based on what I've seen, MOSAIC will either offer a separate route for the legacy OEMs to participate in or will simply provide the route for Cessna and the others to bow out of the recreational aircraft market with minimal issue.

And if the 800k registered drones are any indication of things to come, I think the Part 91 recreational market will go through a major reimaging in the next 5-10 years. Time will tell.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Cirrus sees the SR-20 as the trainer, the SR-22/T as the upgrade, and the SF50 as the aspirational "forever plane" in their line-up. They're winning the sales battle running away - why would they change anything they are doing?
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I think they see the SR-20 as the flight school/rental trainer. Look to their strength as the "lifestyle brand" and they're perfectly happy to train owners in their SR22s, T or not.

Also, they're not winning the sales battle because of their lineup, and they're not winning the sales battle in the training market. They're winning the owner pilot sales battle because they know how to sell. Their tactics should be used by everyone, but alas, the rest of the industry is too dumb to realize that you can't sell planes like you did in the 1970s in the 2020s.

StraightnLevel said:
Three years ago they bought Pipistrel. Has anyone seen a certified Panthera yet?
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I think they've been waiting to see what MOSAIC would be first, rather than trying to certify to existing Part 23 Normal Category standards and possibly incurring a lot more expense in the process than they had to.

StraightnLevel said:
Piper's line goes straight from the Archer ($600K) to the M350 Malibu ($1.5-2M). That's a really big hole in the lineup, right where Cirrus'; SR2x sits.
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To be fair, Piper hasn't had a good entry in the four-seat high performance market since the Comanche production line was destroyed in 1972. Dakota? Please. I mean, it's slow, but at least it's got the same cabin as the trainers. :rolleyes:

StraightnLevel said:
What Mosaic will do is allow a bunch of less expensive European LSAs into the US market.
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That's what the existing LSA rule did. The 1320 pound MGW limit for LSA 1.0 wasn't a random number, it's 600 kg.

StraightnLevel said:
That's good for $100 hamburger runs and casual flyers, but it won't change anything about the markets that Cirrus, et al are serving.
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MOSAIC/LSA 2.0 can absolutely allow a challenge to Cirrus. It looks like Veloce is trying that tactic already in spite of the fact that they can't certify it until next year at the earliest.
 
StraightnLevel said:
What Mosaic will do is allow a bunch of less expensive European LSAs into the US market.
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great point. Where US was market leader and dominated worldwide, with FAA cert being gold standard, we allowed the GA space to be frozen in time and created a vacuum for foreign competitors to enter with new and cheaper options. I did some cert work with EASA and always thought they were much more bureaucratic than FAA, and more costly and longer process, and could never compete with US manufacturers. Many of us thought European competitors would never grab buch traction due to longer and more expensive cert process and overall higher cost of European costs. European countries decided to reduce bureaucratic hurdles to better compete with US in 1980's, now Airbus dominates many segments (there's more to their success but I believe this played a large part). We already lost Continental engines to the Chinese, and it seems we may be importing more new planes than we produce if this process continues.
 
AlphaPilotFlyer said:
great point. Where US was market leader and dominated worldwide, with FAA cert being gold standard, we allowed the GA space to be frozen in time and created a vacuum for foreign competitors to enter with new and cheaper options. I did some cert work with EASA and always thought they were much more bureaucratic than FAA, and more costly and longer process, and could never compete with US manufacturers. Many of us thought European competitors would never grab buch traction due to longer and more expensive cert process and overall higher cost of European costs. European countries decided to reduce bureaucratic hurdles to better compete with US in 1980's, now Airbus dominates many segments (there's more to their success but I believe this played a large part). We already lost Continental engines to the Chinese, and it seems we may be importing more new planes than we produce if this process continues.
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Aviation *was* a uniquely American industry. Unfortunately, like nearly everything else, we've *********ied things in the pursuit of short-term profits to the extent that we are likely to lose our leadership position, and there's a good argument to be made that we already have.
 
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