MOSAIC does NOTHING to lower the cost of GA

MauleSkinner said:
I suspect that the puppy mills will still not offer SP training, since it doesn’t have any advantages for the zero to hero airline-targeted puppy.
Click to expand...
To add on: dedicating CFIs/trainers to career track pilots means PPL, time building, IFR, time building, CSEL, time building, Multi, CFI and possible employee/revenue stream.

A SP is maybe 30-35 hours and some rentals that quickly end.

Its hilarious that people are trying to be so black and white.... sure, some hungry school will teach SP. For the last 20 years 7000 SP tickets have been issued... so someone, somewhere is training. But at 350 average tickets per year in the ENTIRE COUNTRY is not going to increase by 10x just because they can fly on a DL. Its still $10k, garbage CFIs, lack of planes etc etc etc

Maybe SP, in a decade or two becomes a thing. But in the last 20 years not so much. I don't think the medical issue is that big a deal (for 99%) and paying $10k to rent a $200/hr 172 is a draw why? 172s are nice, but I wouldn't pay $10k to be able to rent one (well, I did get my ppl, but my income was not average when I did it). And MOSIAC 2.0 is not gonna drop the cost of new planes to sub $100k prices. There is nothing you can take off the price of an SLSA like RV-12is that can lower the price.... its still a $200k airplane.
 
pfarber said:
1. doesn't matter. airline pilots already have a ticket and medical. They will not be buying a $200-300k ultralight.
Click to expand...
You said “average pilot”. QED.

2. If they drop the cost of a Vision jet from $1.5 to $1mm does that mean everyone will be able to afford it? Cheaper is cheaper.
Click to expand...

The price of a new Vision Jet is currently $3.5M. If it were $1M, I would put my deposit down tomorrow. In fact, if they were $1M, my wife would threaten me with a divorce if I didn’t put down the deposit, because she would prefer it to the Bonanza.

If you’re waiting for new planes to be affordable to the guys making less than the median household income, you’re just not being rational. Aviation is not now, never has been, and never will be a low-income avocation. I would assert that it should not be, either, but that’s really a separate debate.

At any rate, a decent used plane today can be had for about the same price as a new base model Corvette, and less than damn near any new pickup truck. That’s plenty affordable. Heck, I picked up my Bonanza for a LOT less than the last Porsche 911 I bought.
 
There will always be people in the world who could find a fist sized gold nugget and spend the rest of their lives complaining that it wasn’t bigger. I prefer to avoid those people and spend my time with the type of people who would have divided it with the people with them..
pfarber said:
garbage CFIs
Click to expand...
I “learned” (transitioned from ultralights) under sport pilot, in a 1940’s vintage taildragger. my cfi held three (yes three) doctorate degrees, was a member of the state’s board of regents, an advisor on multiple state level and large corporation’s departments, and one of the best stick and rudder guys I have ever met. He loved flying, and was very selective of who he would teach and had a consistently filled schedule months out. Yea there were not many liscences issued, but there was not a lot of availability either, I had a 4 hour round trip by car for every lesson, and was darn lucky at that, the next closest one was a 12 hour round trip drive.
 
pfarber said:
if you're in the plane with a PPL it doesn't matter. So why spend the money on a SP?
Click to expand...
Because I don't want to be the one flying all the time, especially when we have children? Because @2-Bit Speed also wants to be a pilot but is hamstrung by a medical condition that affects his life about 1-2 (very predictable) days a year but would cost several thousands of dollars to get all the ultrasounds, etc , the FAA wants for him to get even the initial 3rd class? Because, for us, the cost savings would be massive?

We are just a bit above that "average Joe" income level you keep quoting, and the only things we ever expect to buy new are food and underwear. Nobody, at least not us, is expecting to buy a new car or a new airplane at our income level. But if other, older pilots with more disposable income buy those new planes, the used market will expand and lower those prices. That will directly affect what planes we can reasonably afford.

I don't know why I am even bothering. You obviously didn't even read any of my posts in this thread.
 
pfarber said:
I already agreed that SOME (math says 1%) medical issues would benefit.
Click to expand...
You keep saying 99%, but that's wrong. 1% may be the number of pilots who are ultimately denied a medical or SI, but there are many times more pilots who aren't included in that 1% because they either know they won't be able to get an SI or (like me) just don't want to bother with the expense and hassle of the SI process, when SP privileges are sufficient for any flying they want to do.
pfarber said:
Show of flight school owners hands: Buy a 172 for $50k or an LSA 2.0 for $200k?
Click to expand...
A lot of flight schools (and not just the big puppy mills) are training in Cirruses at over $500K. And a new C-172 is over $400K even before adding a glass panel. I suspect that brand new sleek $200K LSA with a modern glass panel will bring a lot more students back for their second lesson than the ratty old $50K steam gauge 172 will, so it may well make sense for flight schools and FBOs.
 
pfarber said:
What rule in part 22 is gonna lower that cost?
Click to expand...
By implementing regulatory certification standards, ie., Part 22, it now provides a foundation to streamline a number processes reducing cost overhead over the current Part 21 process and especially for foreign designed and produced LSAs. So until Part 22 is released you have zero comparisons with current LSA as they were issued AWCs under the previous system and cost structure.

Plus, there are now numerous existing designs that fall under the new LSA definition which could allow OEMs to produce new LSA versions of those designs via Part 22. But this route will be specifically determined by how the market reacts in the next few years. While I dont think there will ever be another $50,000 new production aircraft, I believe if the price range for a new Part 22 LSA stays within the same cost as a comparible E/AB model, theres a good chance the market will respond on the positive side.
 
2-Bit Speed said:
The point of MOSAIC was to open the US market to European manufacturers. Pilots became excited because it might lower costs. It might encourage more people to become pilots.
Click to expand...
I remember being somewhat excited by the prospect of sub-100k SLSAs, but the manufacturers went where the money is, and here we are with Bristell$ and Carbon Cub$. I expect it will be similar with MOSAIC, where we may have something like a Sling 4 for $300k compared to a 172 for $400k. Cheaper? Yes. Will it matter to me personally? Probably not, at least not directly/immediately.

GeorgeC,
on Pepperidge Farm
 
pfarber said:
To add on: dedicating CFIs/trainers to career track pilots means PPL, time building, IFR, time building, CSEL, time building, Multi, CFI and possible employee/revenue stream.

A SP is maybe 30-35 hours and some rentals that quickly end.

Its hilarious that people are trying to be so black and white.... sure, some hungry school will teach SP. For the last 20 years 7000 SP tickets have been issued... so someone, somewhere is training. But at 350 average tickets per year in the ENTIRE COUNTRY is not going to increase by 10x just because they can fly on a DL. Its still $10k, garbage CFIs, lack of planes etc etc etc

Maybe SP, in a decade or two becomes a thing. But in the last 20 years not so much. I don't think the medical issue is that big a deal (for 99%) and paying $10k to rent a $200/hr 172 is a draw why? 172s are nice, but I wouldn't pay $10k to be able to rent one (well, I did get my ppl, but my income was not average when I did it). And MOSIAC 2.0 is not gonna drop the cost of new planes to sub $100k prices. There is nothing you can take off the price of an SLSA like RV-12is that can lower the price.... its still a $200k airplane.
Click to expand...
Maybe you should just accept the fact that EAA lied to you personally, add them to your list of garbage people, and avoid them all by getting out of aviation.
 
pfarber said:
I'm still hoping that someone can 'splain to me why MOSIAC is a big deal. I get that you are paying half the cost for half the privileges (no savings there) but what is the expected lowering of costs going to be?

Airplanes are not going to get cheaper to the point of any kind of critical mass. A new LSA is still six digits. 99.98% of the population are never going to own a NEW aircraft (currently .02% own a GA AC of *any* cost.)

Tecnam and Pipistrel? $200k+
RV-12is $150k and you have to build it
Sling $200k

How is MOSAIC gonna help the average wage earner ($60k/year) at all?
Click to expand...
Seems quite unlikely to provide financial relief.
 
Half Fast said:
Folks, any cost benefits, SP privilege improvements, etc., are secondary. The primary driving reason for MOSAIC was to open the US market to small European aircraft. Yes, there are some very nice benefits for us pilots, especially those who wish to fly with a DL medical, but those benefits are a side effect.

Do I think MOSAIC will bring in new people? Maybe a few, but it won't be in amazing numbers. Even though it may lower some barriers, it doesn't do anything to make people want to fly in the first place. GA isn't doing enough to make personal flying look appealing. We're not even selling the steak, let alone selling the sizzle; we're working on improving feed lots and meat packing plants, foolishly thinking that will draw new customers. If we want new flyers, we must work on fostering the dream of flying, and we're not really doing that.
Click to expand...
To many, the idea of owning and flying a plane is sort of absurd. Many will think its quite cool, but most of them are put off by the cost and the effort required. I have given countless numbers of first time rides and far as I can recall, one lady got serious about it on account of the experience but she never really followed through. Other than that, there was a younger gentleman that I took flying in our C55 and he immediately fell in love and got his PPL and multi. "Fostering the dream" is really the way to go----I think most have to experience it first hand. Those who don't just tend to look at it as this impossibly expensive and scary hobby.
 
pfarber said:
I already agreed that SOME (math says 1%) medical issues would benefit. But that doesn't lower the cost of GA, save a lucky few that couldn't get a Class III.
Click to expand...
As similarly asked by you previously, SHOW.ME.THE.MATH. (COMPLETE.WITH.DATA.SOURCE.THAT.INCLUDES.CASES.LIKE.MINE.)
 
pfarber said:
I'm still hoping that someone can 'splain to me why MOSIAC is a big deal. I get that you are paying half the cost for half the privileges (no savings there) but what is the expected lowering of costs going to be?
Click to expand...
When has the cost of anything ever gone down?
 
iu
 
geneseib said:
When has the cost of anything ever gone down?
Click to expand...
If cost is the only driver in someone’s aviation existence, the lowest-cost version of aviation has existed for about 3/4 of a century. You can still get plans and build a low-cost airplane that you can maintain and inspect yourself.

MOSAIC keeps the pilot training costs as low as they’re going to get while increasing the variety of airplanes available to the SP.
 
This is only a single datapoint, but Ignite Flight Academy (Lincoln, NE) said they don't plan to provide sport pilot training as per MOSAIC nor rent to pilots using sport pilot privileges. They market themselves as a pipeline to professional aviation. This conversation happened 6 Nov 2025.
It would be nice to have more data.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
This is only a single datapoint, but Ignite Flight Academy (Lincoln, NE) said they don't plan to provide sport pilot training as per MOSAIC nor rent to pilots using sport pilot privileges. They market themselves as a pipeline to professional aviation. This conversation happened 6 Nov 2025.
It would be nice to have more data.
Click to expand...
OTOH, my local FBO (at SNC) has done SP training for a number of years in a J-3, and confirmed to me yesterday that SPs can now rent their 152 or 172 (with the usual rental checkout, of course).

With one exception, their CFIs are timebuilders, but their two SP CFIs are in it for the love of flying.
 
pfarber said:
New MOSIAC 2.0 AC are already out there... they cost $200k. If a PPL can't afford a $35k 152, why would a MOSIAC 2.0 and SP ticket suddenly make a $200k LSA 2.0 affordable?
Click to expand...
To be clear, I don't have a problem with 35k underpowered lawnmower.... I have a problem with 150k underpowered lawnmower, which is what the clown non-pocket-listing market has been serving for the past 5 years. As I've said before, I don't mind "trash"...I just want trash prices. :biggrin:
 
Last edited:
pfarber said:
I already agreed that SOME (math says 1%) medical issues would benefit.
Click to expand...
Citation? What about people that didn't get their medical denied because they didn't "renew" it as they knew they were non-qualifying and didn't want to bother with the SI?
 
In my uneducated hillbilly opinion.. let’s face facts, the number of “private” not “commercial” pilots whom are approaching the age where SI medicals will become necessary is growing far faster than their replacements, but without them GA itself may disappear, for a long time the new “just want to have there own airplane and not go on to be airline pilots because it pays a lot” group of people getting into it has gotten smaller and smaller. This may (probably is) because of costs, availability (try finding a hanger…) a loss of glamor (pilots used to be pretty high on the what do you do as a hobby), options (an extremely high end flight simulator would be cheaper with zero risk), a shift in social acceptance of dangerous (I’m not going to go into detail on this, but things I did as a kid would scare the heck out of me seeing my own kids do it, not going to lie), and lack of exposure to aviation in general. It’s been 14 years since airports were basically locked off from the general public and presenting a “you don’t belong here” presence. Each year there will be less and less, there really was/is no choice to give GA a chance of survival other than what MOSAIC just did.
 
Flatiowa said:
It’s been 14 years since airports were basically locked off from the general public and presenting a “you don’t belong here” presence.
Click to expand...
I think this is a bigger factor than many people understand. Getting rid of the security theater around most GA airports would make them far more welcoming and would not, in my opinion, substantially change the actual security of the airfield. Between open gates and people tailgating through for convenience, easily scalable fences, and gate codes being frequently guessable (often a frequency or transponder code), really the only people we're actually keeping out of the airfield are the kids who want to be there. The future of aviation has always been ramp-rats, not outreach programs. The kid who grows up a ramp-rat may never own an airplane or even become a pilot, but they're also unlikely to be the person calling for the airport to be shut for noise-concerns or "redevelopment".

Tune in next time for my TED-talk about how SFRAs are a massive waste of everyone's time, and why VIP TFRs should only be a mile-wide.
 
Flatiowa said:
but without them GA itself may disappear,
Click to expand...
Except only the Part 91 recreational side of GA is disappearing with the majority of GA actually growing in numbers. But I think you're right that MOSAIC will be the last attempt by the industry to stimulate that market segment given its history after previous attempts.
 
Lindberg said:
I'm sure there are statistics that probably back up what you're saying, but anecdotally, it's not my experience.
Click to expand...
I've found it depends in what direction you look at whether you see that growth. If you see what GA segment gets all the new designs and deliveries plus the direction Signature and others are taking in acquiring facilities to service that growing segment, it becomes more apparent. Unfortunately, a common result of this growth was mentioned in the Austin F1 race thread where the average Part 91 rec flyer had to take a backseat to that growing sector which is attracting $billions in investments, etc.
 
Flatiowa said:
..from the general public and presenting a “you don’t belong here” presence.
Click to expand...
nah, the odiousness predates SIDA fences or 9/11. To a good chunk of the gallery inside the fence, that ain't the bug, that's the feature. Pilot class solidarity is a myth; OSH is basically a revolving PR stunt in that context.
 
Last edited:
hindsight2020 said:
nah, the odiousness predates SIDA fences or 9/11. To a good chunk of the gallery inside the fence, that ain't the bug, that's the feature. Pilot class solidarity is a myth; OSH is a basically a revolving PR stunt in that context.
Click to expand...
I cannot argue against that…
 
2-Bit Speed said:
Which is less than 10.
Click to expand...
Why are people not grasping the simple concept: you pay less and you get less.

I'll try a bad car analogy. A new car is $50,000. But you order a new car without an engine for $25,000. Yes, its still car shaped, and yes you paid less, and it has some car qualities.

And the REAL kicker for students: cost was never the real reason for an 80% failure rate. ITS THE GARBAGE CFIs. MOSIAC did nothing to address the fact that the REAL reason people never finish training is not cash. Its GARBAGE CFIs.

No, I'm not moving the goal post. MOSAIC 1.0 didn't do squat to 'open the floodgates', neither did the laughable Recreational Pilot. See, COST was never the REAL issue. THe GARBAGE CFIs are.

The three major changes are 'more airplanes' (DOES NOTHING TO LOWER THE COST OF TRAINING), 'can fly at night' (BUT YOU NEED TO PAY FOR MORE TRAINING), 'can fly with a DL' SO WHAT, PPL DOESN'T NEED A CLASS III UNTIL SOLO AND A PHYSICAL IS LIKE $300.

I'm still waiting for one of the proponents to show me some math.
 
pfarber said:
Why are people not grasping the simple concept: you pay less and you get less.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's exactly correct. It took you so long to get it?!
pfarber said:
I'm still waiting for one of the proponents to show me some math.
Click to expand...
I'm still waiting for you to cite some numbers, as requested in post #187. No data, no math!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top