MOSAIC does NOTHING to lower the cost of GA

pfarber said:
Ok, prove its less money.

Taking the average time/costs/rentals show me. Use real world numbers please.
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No, I'm not going to do your math for you. The hours for a SP ticket are less than the hours required for PP. Figure out the arithmetic.
 
pfarber said:
You misspelled E/AB.
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???

pfarber said:
MOSAIC did nothing to lower the cost of low cost flying. Also a there are way more cheaper certified planes... Tri-pacer perhaps? I won't do the math but a $55k plane with insurance and hangar is still out of reach for an average person.
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Now you're moving goal posts, when did a hangar come into the into the affordability equation? Yes, there are cheaper aircraft available like a classic Tri-Pacer, but I can't perform the annual inspection or perform any other maintenance that doesn't fall under FAR 43 Appendix A (C) which will cost $$$...

pfarber said:
See, MOSIAC didn't change anything. You could have done everything before Oct 22nd.
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We'll just have to disagree. Just as an anecdote, I started my flight training in 1992 when I was working a job that paid an inflation adjusted annual salary of $40K which is only 2/3 of the $60K "average person" income you have mentioned in other posts. I was able to get a PP cert and have a modest flying hobby on that income. Had MOSAIC been around I could have easily become an aircraft owner and flown a LOT more...
 
There have always been some "affordable" options down on the bottom end of the market if you aren't a snob. I've owned 7 of those including a Piper Colt I picked up for $12,500, flew for about a year, and sold for exactly what I paid for it. When people on the low end of the market are mad that they can't afford something better, it's quite amusing. If you accept where you are, and work your way up, it's a better way to live.

That's still true today. If I was in the market - and I might be soon, I'm sure I could replace the Luscombe I sold in January with something I could enjoy flying for $15-20K in the next week or two.
 
pfarber said:
its completely useless for career track pilots.
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Most of us here are not career track pilots, and SP wasn't intended for them.
pfarber said:
I've never met someone with a SP ticket
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As I said earlier, you need to get out more. I know quite a few people with SP tickets, and many more who are "exercising SP privileges" with a DL as medical.
pfarber said:
I've not read many complaints about not being able to fly a 172 from them.
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The biggest single complaint I hear and read is about the lack of LSAs to rent. Increasing the pool of SP-available aircraft to include widely available 172s and the like is a huge game changer for these pilots.

"There are none so blind as those who refuse to see."

But, I fear... :deadhorse:
 
Half Fast said:
No, I'm not going to do your math for you. The hours for a SP ticket are less than the hours required for PP. Figure out the arithmetic.
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You are paying less money for less privileges. You know this, right? Can't fly at night. Can't go into controlled fields etc etc

Also when I rent a 4 seater I can use all 4 seats. SP will never have that ability. Someone said SP have had trouble renting planes.... ok, great, now they can pay the same amount as a PPL but can't use it to it full capacity. What a win!

You won't do the math because you'll learn that its not saving money?
 
pfarber said:
You are paying less money for less privileges. You know this, right? Can't fly at night. Can't go into controlled fields etc etc

Also when I rent a 4 seater I can use all 4 seats. SP will never have that ability. Someone said SP have had trouble renting planes.... ok, great, now they can pay the same amount as a PPL but can't use it to it full capacity. What a win!

You won't do the math because you'll learn that its not saving money?
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You just won’t listen. Why pay for privileges you don’t want?

For a pilot who doesn’t want to carry 4 people or to fly at night, there’s no need to spend the money for a medical and a PP ticket. Such a person can now fly more readily available aircraft and carry more fuel and cargo using a less expensive certificate.

So it’s not what you want. Fine, get your PP. But MOSAIC helps others, and it ain’t all about you.
 
pfarber said:
That is under the OLD LSA standard. :rolleyes: My original post is about the NEW LSA standards.

Remember, the EAA championed all the new LSA designs under MOSIAC 2.0 that would make flying affordable.
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At this point I’m convinced you are intentionally be argumentative just for sake of argument. There’s no huge number of brand new affordable airplanes a few weeks after it’s implemented so it’s a failure with no purpose?? I had a pet donkey when I was growing up, I learned that when it sat down it’s not worth the trouble of trying to lead it to water and it was more trouble than it was worth to me so I sold it. I feel the same now.
 
Flatiowa said:
There’s no huge number of brand new affordable airplanes a few weeks after it’s implemented so it’s a failure with no purpose??
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The new design "standards" don't even take effect until the middle of 2026, so any expectation of a flood of new LSAs designed to those standards *now* is either misguided, misinformed, or intentionally obtuse.

Nauga,
acutely aware
 
Flatiowa said:

SE-1 Aircraft – Spirit Engineering, Inc.

spiriteng.com spiriteng.com
$69,500 base of price, order one in the morning and you will probably have it in a month…
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That’s a beautiful looking plane - hadn’t seen that before.

A 2-cylinder engine fairly unique to the plane, a tail-dragger with a 300 lb useful load and a single-seater. Not gonna be a first plane for many SPs but would still be a hoot for the right pilot, I bet.

I wonder how they can bring it in at that price, especially with such a niche engine.
 
idahoflier said:
???



Now you're moving goal posts, when did a hangar come into the into the affordability equation? Yes, there are cheaper aircraft available like a classic Tri-Pacer, but I can't perform the annual inspection or perform any other maintenance that doesn't fall under FAR 43 Appendix A (C) which will cost $$$...



We'll just have to disagree. Just as an anecdote, I started my flight training in 1992 when I was working a job that paid an inflation adjusted annual salary of $40K which is only 2/3 of the $60K "average person" income you have mentioned in other posts. I was able to get a PP cert and have a modest flying hobby on that income. Had MOSAIC been around I could have easily become an aircraft owner and flown a LOT more...
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Are you gonna show me the math or waffle about?

the new mosiac rules won't make new LSAs affordable (so stop posting old lsa prices... new rules only please)

the new SP rules don't save money, you get half the training for half the cost.

SHOW. ME. THE. MATH.
 
pfarber said:
Also when I rent a 4 seater I can use all 4 seats. SP will never have that ability. Someone said SP have had trouble renting planes.... ok, great, now they can pay the same amount as a PPL but can't use it to it full capacity. What a win!
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How many Private Pilot renters use all 4 seats on any kind of a regular basis? I owned a 4-seat airplane for 19 years, and never filled all the seats. I usually had the back seat out of it so I could fill the airplane with bicycles and camping equipment. A Sport Pilot can still use the maximum weight and cubic capacity of the airplane.
 
AvNavCom said:
View attachment 146743
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I was told there would be a lower cost to flying:

Eaa:
"taking half the time, at half the cost," - they forgot to all 'and only half the privileges'

The EAA / AOPA are touting something that isn't really true. They said in multiple articles that flying will be more affordable and new LSA designs will cost less.

A SP is gonna pay the same rental fee as a PPL. WHere is the 'affordability'? SP's will need half the hours but have half the privileges.

SHOW. ME. THE. MATH. seriously... can not one show me the numbers???
 
MauleSkinner said:
How many Private Pilot renters use all 4 seats on any kind of a regular basis? I owned a 4-seat airplane for 19 years, and never filled all the seats. I usually had the back seat out of it so I could fill the airplane with bicycles and camping equipment. A Sport Pilot can still use the maximum weight and cubic capacity of the airplane.
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If I filled the 4 seats of my airplane, then pretty much the only thing I could do would be to taxi around the airport. ;-)
 
MauleSkinner said:
How many Private Pilot renters use all 4 seats on any kind of a regular basis? I owned a 4-seat airplane for 19 years, and never filled all the seats. I usually had the back seat out of it so I could fill the airplane with bicycles and camping equipment. A Sport Pilot can still use the maximum weight and cubic capacity of the airplane.
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So why rent a 172 when say a DA20 is an LSA and typically rents for less?
 
pfarber said:
So why rent a 172 when say a DA20 is an LSA and typically rents for less?
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To carry more. But the 172 was YOUR example, not mine. You need to pick a place for the goalposts and stick with it.

And while we’re at it, a good chunk of your argument ISN’T about saving money, it’s about getting more for the same money, but you seem to be unable to comprehend the difference.
 
MauleSkinner said:
To carry more. But the 172 was YOUR example, not mine. You need to pick a place for the goalposts and stick with it.

And while we’re at it, a good chunk of your argument ISN’T about saving money, it’s about getting more for the same money, but you seem to be unable to comprehend the difference.
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I see how you didn't give an example.

I am ALL ABOUT saving the money. Did you read my posts?

Show me how a SP is reducing the cost. Also known as saving da money.

GOalposts have no moved, I just think people are realizing that MOSAIC 2.0 is not going to help 99% of people. FOr that luck 1%.. enjoy your $200/hr rental for VFR day.
 
Llewtrah381 said:
That’s a beautiful looking plane - hadn’t seen that before.

A 2-cylinder engine fairly unique to the plane, a tail-dragger with a 300 lb useful load and a single-seater. Not gonna be a first plane for many SPs but would still be a hoot for the right pilot, I bet.

I wonder how they can bring it in at that price, especially with such a niche engine.
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Go to the gallery page, it’s a very impressive accomplishment. Custom made engine, folding wings for storage (it can fit in an enclosed trailer and be flight ready in minutes from pulling into a small airport so side steps the hanger shortage/cost problems), and fully tooled up for mass production. What I find most impressive about the entire thing is it was accomplished over a many year time period with no “leaks”, completely under the radar…. “Nobody blabbed”, it wasn’t until they showed up at Oshkosh with a couple flying examples that it was announced. Zero vapor ware, zero rounds of bogus bs funding pitches, zero failed promises… they just “appeared”.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
Show me a MOSAIC 2.0 LSA that i can buy today for any price.
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I'm a bity behind in my reading. I just noticed in SportAviation, Sept 2-25, page 42 this sentence: "With LSA 2.0 there are opportunities for the training fleet to be refreshed with affordable new aircraft, and for new factory-built aircraft for private owners to bridge the gap between E-AB ad full part 23 certification. To allow time for the expansion of existing industry consensus standards and the development of new standards to be finalized, the aircraft rules will take effect next year"

I'm just talking to the timeline, not how "affordable" these aircraft will be.
 
Money Example

Private Pilot since 1969. Current rating ASES, ASEL. (And probably anyone else who is using Sport Pilot Privileges with a higher level Certificate.)

Flying a 172/Cherokee before MOSAIC. $10000+ for a SI with a chance of being denied and restricted to ultralights and gliders. (Even though two Cardiologists, Heart Surgeon, Dr Bruce and my family Doctor all agree I am very fit to fly.)

Flying a 172/Cherokee after MOSAIC. $0

BTW, due to being colorblind according to the FAA (but not my USAF Flight Physical), restricted from night flying anyway.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I'm a bity behind in my reading. I just noticed in SportAviation, Sept 2-25, page 42 this sentence: "With LSA 2.0 there are opportunities for the training fleet to be refreshed with affordable new aircraft, and for new factory-built aircraft for private owners to bridge the gap between E-AB ad full part 23 certification. To allow time for the expansion of existing industry consensus standards and the development of new standards to be finalized, the aircraft rules will take effect next year"

I'm just talking to the timeline, not how "affordable" these aircraft will be.
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jbarrass said:
The aircraft rules don't come into play till next year.
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Exactly. @pfarber ’s argument is at best premature. More likely just founded in ignorance, intentional or otherwise.
 
[mention]pfarber [/mention], has MOSIAC negatively impacted you in some way? Has it removed rights or privileges you had? Is it costing you money?

I’m just really curious what the burr up your butt is?


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