IFR violations

ircphoenix

ircphoenix

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ircphoenix
Okay so now that I've officially cancelled my trip to Sedona this weekend due to low ceilings predicted....

I was thinking, if someone were to file IFR, reasonably knew what they were doing without having their ticket punched, and flew IFR to punch through a layer and cancelled on top, how exactly would anyone know? Is it one of those things where no harm no foul? The only time you'd get violated is if something bad happened?

I have not, will not, and would not ever advocate for or do the above, no matter how annoyed I am with the minor inconvenience of stupid minor weather disturbances. I spent too much money on my ticket and my airplane to risk losing either to some stupidity. But it got me wondering how anyone would even know.
 
Probably wouldn't, since you'd file with the aircraft tail number and not anything that identified you... but meta-data might link you, or the sound of your voice on the call to the briefer / LiveATC recording, etc etc etc.

So really it'd be a case of whether or not there was a reason to come find you, and once there was, there's always a paper trail... someone, if not you, owns the aircraft and knows who was flying it that day, etc.
 
denverpilot said:
Probably wouldn't, since you'd file with the aircraft tail number and not anything that identified you... but meta-data might link you, or the sound of your voice on the call to the briefer / LiveATC recording, etc etc etc.

So really it'd be a case of whether or not there was a reason to come find you, and once there was, there's always a paper trail... someone, if not you, owns the aircraft and knows who was flying it that day, etc.
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Seems there's a lot of stuff that's based on the honor system... and the consequences don't happen unless you have reason to get caught.
 
ircphoenix said:
Seems there's a lot of stuff that's based on the honor system... and the consequences don't happen unless you have reason to get caught.
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Pretty much. But if it's blatant and repeated, eventually someone is going to report it for everyone's safety. Or perceived safety. Or however one wants to look at that.

Once you hang around airports long enough you eventually hear stories of people who were doing utterly crazy stuff, until an anonymous phone call got the pros to look into it.

Usually you get the hint that the offender had a number of chances to straighten out and fly right prior to the anonymous call, too.

Folks don't enjoy "snitching", but seeing someone say, that everyone knows isn't rated, load up family members and blast off into the low slag, tends to be over the line enough that phone calls will be made. Nobody wants to see innocent people killed by something that stupid.

I'll be flat honest here, I've never had to make one of those phone calls, but I've spoken with someone who wanted an opinion as to whether or not they should. No names were given, just circumstances witnessed and I said I'd call.

But I've also seen some insanity that people let go on for many years that should have been stopped and nobody said anything.

Probably the most egregious was a so-called instructor who owned his own twin and loaded two brand new multi students in the front regularly and taught from the back. (This was LONG before I did multi training or added the multi CFI.)

I don't recall anyone on the airport thinking that was a good idea, and that he probably was going to kill someone, probably all three people on board, including himself, sooner or later. Nowadays, I know he was completely insane and a danger to his students. But it was long ago... and nobody put a stop to it. I'd have a real hard time NOT saying something about that now.

If you see it, and you don't say something, you're going to wake up and watch the news and see the blackened smear the aircraft left somewhere on the video, and realize you had a hand in not saving the innocent folks. So there's a point where even the most die-hard "it's none of my business" guy, like myself, realizes it's over the line.

You want to go do stupid stuff SOLO in your airplane? I'll probably never say a word to anybody. Your call. You start loading passengers or students on board and doing it? I'm not going to be passive about that. That's "active shut that crap down mode" time.
 
ircphoenix said:
Seems there's a lot of stuff that's based on the honor system... and the consequences don't happen unless you have reason to get caught.
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That is as true of 1st degree murder as it is of speeding. (Well, maybe not technically speeding since "eight is great" even through radar - most of the time).

I guess all but the purest of us violate some rules. Most make a moral decision based on some combination of perceived benefit to us, harm to others, how important we see the rule, and the likelihood of getting caught. It doubtful any two of us do the calculation in the same way or give each of those factors the same weight. Where your hypothetical falls in that calculation for you is a question only you can answer.

Just an observation. The first seven years of my career were spent practicing criminal law. Not one of my guilty clients thought he or she was going to get caught.
 
Concur 100% that it is an honor system and you can pretty get away with it indefinitely unless you screw up. And it's not just IFR-- Besides non-rated pilots routinely filing and flying IFR, there's pilots flying with no medical or even a pilot's certificate.
 
Do whatever you want, just don't get caught doing it in other words? Seems like a rather juvenile way of thinking.

ircphoenix said:
Seems there's a lot of stuff that's based on the honor system... and the consequences don't happen unless you have reason to get caught.
Click to expand...

There's a reason its called the "honor" system. Dishonest people and criminals will take advantage of it all the time because, well, they have no honor. It takes a lot of integrity to look at a situation where you "could" break the rules and accomplish what you want (since no one would ever know) and NOT do it because you know its wrong.

Not a lot of those folks out there anymore.
 
Caramon13 said:
There's a reason its called the "honor" system. Dishonest people and criminals will take advantage of it all the time because, well, they have no honor.
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You'd be amazed. "Honor among thieves" isn't just a saying...it has some solid history.
 
MauleSkinner said:
You'd be amazed..."honor among thieves" isn't just a saying...it has some solid history.
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Possibly, but there are exceptions to every rule right? I mean hell, even a stopped clock is right two times a day. I guess that part of my post is hyperbole, however I stand by the spirit of its intent :).
 
I have known people that fly IFR without their rating, or without a medical, or even without a pilot's license at all. Until something happens or it gets reported, they usually won't get caught. The FAA doesn't have the manpower to beat the street and find all of these people.
 
People flying IFR without ratings don't bother me anywhere near as much as the people found flying in IMC without availing themselves of the "system" (a clearance and otherwise complying with the instrument flight rules). Nothing like being in the soup with a non-cleared bogie ahead of you.
 
flyingron said:
People flying IFR without ratings don't bother me anywhere near as much as the people found flying in IMC without availing themselves of the "system" (a clearance and otherwise complying with the instrument flight rules). Nothing like being in the soup with a non-cleared bogie ahead of you.
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Agreed. An instrument student at the flight school where I finished up my PPL once told me that he liked to file IFR on CAVU days to get experience flying in the system. I shook my head and told him I hoped he didn't get caught, but otherwise he was way down on my list of people to snitch on. I haven't heard of anyone filing into hard IMC without a rating, but I'm sure it happens. Again, unless I knew the person was incompetent and a danger to themselves and others, I probably wouldn't say anything. An advanced instrument student a few weeks from his checkride? I would probably just have a talk with him, ask him whether he thought it was worth the risk of losing all his certificates.

But a scofflaw flying in the soup without a clearance? Unless it's somewhere far from any busy airspace, I consider those people a menace and wouldn't hesitate to let their FBO know if I knew for sure they were doing it; or as a last resort, the FSDO.
 
It's all based on logic and will to live.

I mean if you are good enough and don't screw up, doubt anyone is going to ever know, and you're not going to get hurt.

BUT....if you have the skills to pull that off, why not just knock
your instrument ticket out?
 
ircphoenix said:
Okay so now that I've officially cancelled my trip to Sedona this weekend due to low ceilings predicted....

I was thinking, if someone were to file IFR, reasonably knew what they were doing without having their ticket punched, and flew IFR to punch through a layer and cancelled on top, how exactly would anyone know? Is it one of those things where no harm no foul? The only time you'd get violated is if something bad happened?

I have not, will not, and would not ever advocate for or do the above, no matter how annoyed I am with the minor inconvenience of stupid minor weather disturbances. I spent too much money on my ticket and my airplane to risk losing either to some stupidity. But it got me wondering how anyone would even know.
Click to expand...

30 years ago I knew of VFR only pilots doing this quite frequently, or at least they claimed they did.
 
ircphoenix said:
Okay so now that I've officially cancelled my trip to Sedona this weekend due to low ceilings predicted....
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Same here, well, not Sedona, but Vegas... this will be the third time cancelling it, argh?!

ircphoenix said:
I was thinking, if someone were to file IFR, reasonably knew what they were doing without having their ticket punched, and flew IFR to punch through a layer and cancelled on top, how exactly would anyone know? Is it one of those things where no harm no foul? The only time you'd get violated is if something bad happened?
Click to expand...
I have often wondered the same. The preservation of my own life and the desire to not break the law have, and will continue, to keep me from doing this... but I bet there are pilots out there who break the rules all the time.. especially with all the glass out there and synthetic vision I bet it happens more often than we'd like to think
 
Caramon13 said:
Do whatever you want, just don't get caught doing it in other words? Seems like a rather juvenile way of thinking.



There's a reason its called the "honor" system. Dishonest people and criminals will take advantage of it all the time because, well, they have no honor. It takes a lot of integrity to look at a situation where you "could" break the rules and accomplish what you want (since no one would ever know) and NOT do it because you know its wrong.

Not a lot of those folks out there anymore.
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Yeah well I *could* but I refuse to. I'm a rule follower (sometimes to an extreme) and I'd be a hypocrite if I wasn't. Inconveniences the crap out of myself sometimes, but whatever. Right is right.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
 
James331 said:
It's all based on logic and will to live.

I mean if you are good enough and don't screw up, doubt anyone is going to ever know, and you're not going to get hurt.

BUT....if you have the skills to pull that off, why not just knock
your instrument ticket out?
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I'm confident enough in my skills to think I could punch through a layer and get above or below it. Zero experience with holds and entries and which way to turn which knob in order to correct a remote sensing compass. ;)

I have no doubt I could effectively fly in the system for 5 minutes. But that ain't the same thing as real IFR... And getting the instrument is still yet another few grand that I don't have. Now that I own a plane, I'm too poor to fly. :D
 
James331 said:
BUT....if you have the skills to pull that off, why not just knock
your instrument ticket out?
Click to expand...

That's a very good question. And it wouldn't probably take much effort, just learning a few rules they may not be aware of and a couple tests..boom..done.

But being good is all relative. Most people don't know what they don't know.

Just because some guy reads an approach chart doesn't make him qualified to now go fly that for real in the soup. Also, flying the same approaches under IFR to the same airport for 20 years STILL doesn't make you qualified to fly IFR, I don't care what kind of pilot you are. There's more to the rating then being able to fly an approach or handle a plane under the hood..that's what these guys don't get...
 
ircphoenix said:
I have no doubt I could effectively fly in the system for 5 minutes. But that ain't the same thing as real IFR... And getting the instrument is still yet another few grand that I don't have. Now that I own a plane, I'm too poor to fly. :D
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Even if you had your ticket, you'd still be faced with the morality of "My IPC was 6 months and 1 day ago and I haven't flown any approaches since then. What do I do now?" :)
 
asicer said:
Even if you had your ticket, you'd still be faced with the morality of "My IPC was 6 months and 1 day ago and I haven't flown any approaches since then. What do I do now?" :)
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Remain VFR. Okay, not the 1 day thing but it's an easy call for me to make. If I haven't flown a practice approach or a real one lately then I'm just not going to fly one in IMC. The current and at least marginally proficient thing is pretty important when it comes to keeping the aircraft right side up by looking at a few gizmos or a tv screen.
 
Clip4 said:
30 years ago I knew of VFR only pilots doing this quite frequently, or at least they claimed they did.
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I had a friend that did it for a while maybe 10 or 15 years ago, and then got his IFR, finally after having his PPL (certificate, yes) since he was 16. I think he got his IFR when he was 45! I used to always chastise him for it, but that that got old, and as I indicated finally did the right thing. He was lucky.
 
I know someone that had an ATC call while on flight following, that sounded like the controller assumed he had an IFR rating. Not sure the exact words were, but they were cleared to descend through the layer when given an altitude change.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
asicer said:
Even if you had your ticket, you'd still be faced with the morality of "My IPC was 6 months and 1 day ago and I haven't flown any approaches since then. What do I do now?" :)
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Unless you're IPC was on the last day of the month, you're still legal.

Proficiency is a whole 'nother ball of wax.
 
drotto said:
I know someone that had an ATC call while on flight following, that sounded like the controller assumed he had an IFR rating. Not sure the exact words were, but they were cleared to descend through the layer when given an altitude change.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
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I have that all the time. And the reverse. Instructions from Ground to remain clear of Class C until in contact with San Jose Tower, for instance, when I'm IFR and my clearance takes me right over midfield SJC.
 
drotto said:
I know someone that had an ATC call while on flight following, that sounded like the controller assumed he had an IFR rating. Not sure the exact words were, but they were cleared to descend through the layer when given an altitude change.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Pretty sure that ain't legal, strictly speaking.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Just an observation. The first seven years of my career were spent practicing criminal law. Not one of my guilty clients thought he or she was going to get caught.
Click to expand...

"Your Honor, my client is on trial for something he didn't do!"

"Oh really, Counsel?"

"Yeah, he didn't run fast enough and got caught."

:)
 
I can see it now... they give you a clearance to descend, but revise your cleared altitude for other IFR traffic into Sedona. You are now in the clouds and get a fairly complex hold and you have to do it the old fashioned way.

Seems like they'd really be rolling the dice.
 
Kritchlow said:
I can see it now... they give you a clearance to descend, but revise your cleared altitude for other IFR traffic into Sedona. You are now in the clouds and get a fairly complex hold and you have to do it the old fashioned way.

Seems like they'd really be rolling the dice.
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Sedona's gonna to be completely clear. It's the home airfield that's going to have low ceilings for about 8 hours longer than my schedule can tolerate. So I had to cancel tours and hotel. Weak sauce.
 
ircphoenix said:
Sedona's gonna to be completely clear. It's the home airfield that's going to have low ceilings for about 8 hours longer than my schedule can tolerate. So I had to cancel tours and hotel. Weak sauce.
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I gotcha.... My scenario was a total generic situation.
 
I think most if not all, have missed the point in my friend's question. He isn't asking if it is right, he and everyone else knows that it isn't. What he is asking is "how would anyone know?" The answer is that until a pilot's lack of skills in IMC catch up with him/her, or if he/she talks about it in front of the wrong person, nobody will ever know.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I think most if not all, have missed the point in my friend's question. He isn't asking if it is right, he and everyone else knows that it isn't. What he is asking is "how would anyone know?" The answer is that until a pilot's lack of skills in IMC catch up with him/her, or if he/she talks about it in front of the wrong person, nobody will ever know.
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Wrong. This post was a clever ruse, and I am in fact an FAA enforcement agent (are those a thing) that is searching for scofflaws. Stop cramping my style.
 
MAKG1 said:
Unless you're IPC was on the last day of the month, you're still legal.

Proficiency is a whole 'nother ball of wax.
Click to expand...
)
MAKG1 said:
Unless you're IPC was on the last day of the month, you're still legal.

Proficiency is a whole 'nother ball of wax.
Click to expand...
d)Instrument proficiency check. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, a person who has failed to meet the instrumentexperience requirements of paragraph (c) for more than six calendar months may reestablish instrument currency only by completing an instrument proficiency check. The instrument proficiency check must consist of the areas of operation and instrument tasks required in the instrument rating practical test standards.
 
denverpilot said:
"Your Honor, my client is on trial for something he didn't do!"

"Oh really, Counsel?"

"Yeah, he didn't run fast enough and got caught."

:)
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Meh. The real sh#t that happens is much funnier (and scarier). If anyone thinks there's no such thing as a stupid question, hang out in a lower level criminal court that's holding trials or hearings for a day or two.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Meh. The real sh#t that happens is much funnier (and scarier). If anyone thinks there's no such thing as a stupid question, hang out in a lower level criminal court that's holding trials or hearings for a day or two.
Click to expand...

Don't do that. It's two days of your life you'll never get back.
 
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