IFR violations

ircphoenix said:
I was thinking, if someone were to file IFR, reasonably knew what they were doing without having their ticket punched, and flew IFR to punch through a layer and cancelled on top, how exactly would anyone know? Is it one of those things where no harm no foul? The only time you'd get violated is if something bad happened?
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Not necessarily. You'd be surprised how many of the people who do this type of stuff openly brag about it in FBO lounges, flight schools, etc. All it takes is one person to overhear a braggart and not be comfortable with what is being said for them to be reported (or caught by an inspector sitting in a lounge chair on the other side of the room).

That said, most of the time it ends in tragedy or something really stupid, or both, like this: https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...=20151220X04641&AKey=1&RType=Factual&IType=FA This pilot had no instrument rating, was flying in marginal conditions, accepted an IFR clearance he was not qualified to accept, and killed his whole family and himself shortly thereafter.

The bottom line for me is there are some lines in aviation pilots cannot cross. The idea of flying IFR without a rating is one such line.
 
Harold Rutila said:
Not necessarily. You'd be surprised how many of the people who do this type of stuff openly brag about it in FBO lounges, flight schools, etc. All it takes is one person to overhear a braggart and not be comfortable with what is being said for them to be reported (or caught by an inspector sitting in a lounge chair on the other side of the room).

That said, most of the time it ends in tragedy or something really stupid, or both, like this: https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...=20151220X04641&AKey=1&RType=Factual&IType=FA This pilot had no instrument rating, was flying in marginal conditions, accepted an IFR clearance he was not qualified to accept, and killed his whole family and himself shortly thereafter.

The bottom line for me is there are some lines in aviation pilots cannot cross. The idea of flying IFR without a rating is one such line.
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Holy crap. That was a sad one to read.

Yeah, IFR with no rating or experience is a no no. Uggghhhh
 
Flew Texas to California a few years ago on July 4th. Big storms over northern Arizona in early morning (everything north of I-10 from Phoenix to Blythe) that no one was going through. I was the only VFR being handled, but had to land at Marana as weather was changing to fast. Refueled and departed figuring I'd be landing soon and waiting it out. Got the same ATC guy I had had since the New Mexico area (guess cause it was July 4 and there wasn't much traffic). He asked if I could take a deviation along the southern border, that I'd be VFR with bases at 2500-3000 AGL in light rain/mist and cleared me through ALL the restricted airspace. As soon as I accepted, 5-6 IFR's behind me asked for the same. but for some reason he needed them VFR as well. We ended up with about 8 of us in 5-10 mile trail ... with three indicating they were VFR when there wasn't any possibility they were.
 
Clip4 said:
)

d)Instrument proficiency check. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, a person who has failed to meet the instrumentexperience requirements of paragraph (c) for more than six calendar months may reestablish instrument currency only by completing an instrument proficiency check. The instrument proficiency check must consist of the areas of operation and instrument tasks required in the instrument rating practical test standards.
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Yes, and a "calendar month" is a whole month. If I did six instrument approaches (plus holding and tracking, etc.) on April 1, I did six instrument approaches in the month of April. An IPC would be required at May 1 of the following year.

For a contrast, the day VFR currency requirement specifies 90 days, not three calendar months. You have a problem otherwise, that months are not all the same length.
 
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tsts4 said:
Concur 100% that it is an honor system and you can pretty get away with it indefinitely unless you screw up. And it's not just IFR-- Besides non-rated pilots routinely filing and flying IFR, there's pilots flying with no medical or even a pilot's certificate.
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I fly with no medical.
 
This is potentially an epic n00b question, but if this
MAKG1 said:
the day VFR currency requirement specifies 90 days
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is true, then why does Foreflight show 91 days on your currency after you do your landings?

Is it counting "today" as one of the days?
 
Tantalum said:
This is potentially an epic n00b question, but if this

is true, then why does Foreflight show 91 days on your currency after you do your landings?

Is it counting "today" as one of the days?
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The wording of the reg is pretty clear. You can't act as PIC if you haven't made three takeoffs and landings in the preceding 90 days. Today is not a preceding day.

Foreflight's wording is much less precise.
 
Harold Rutila said:
The idea of flying IFR without a rating is one such line.
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There is a huge psychological factor to flying blind. I think that's what gets people in trouble...
I consider myself very level headed and logical and capable on instruments, and aced all the hood simulated stuff. But actual IMC was a very unique experience. It can be very panic inducing, and we all know what happens to your decision making when panic sets in

This is a great video...
"are you IFR capable and qualified?" - "I am not current" ... and then he gets an engine failure. Lives to tell the story though!
 
MAKG1 said:
Today is not a preceding day
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Thanks, that's what I though, and I rarely go more than 10 days - 15 days without satisfying that requirement just as a product of flying. But always though Foreflight's "91" was a strange. It must be some code level date calculator that spits that back
 
Harold Rutila said:
This pilot had no instrument rating
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This kind of hits all the textbook "don't do's" in flying
1.) he took off into poor conditions to make a scheduled commitment
2.) he didn't fess up to ATC when he got himself stuck, and instead accepted an IFR clearance
3.) presumably when he became IMC he didn't do the number one thing "FLY THE PLANE"

What I don't understand is, surely he had the money and the hours to be instrument rated... so why not just knock it out?
 
Walboy said:
Here's a case of what can happen to a non certificated pilot who disregarded rules. Not only did it take his life, but that of his employee/passenger.

The noncertificated pilot’s failure to maintain clearance from terrain while maneuvering to
land in dark night conditions likely due to his geographic disorientation (lost). Contributing to
the accident was the pilot’s improper decision to fly at night with a known visual limitation.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...ID=20121219X15826&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=FA
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The accident pilot was a member of my CAP squadron. I had no idea that he would do such a thing. :(
 
MAKG1 said:
The wording of the reg is pretty clear. You can't act as PIC if you haven't made three takeoffs and landings in the preceding 90 days. Today is not a preceding day.

Foreflight's wording is much less precise.
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Your wording is also imprecise. The wording of the reg is pretty clear that you can't act as PIC carrying passengers or of an aircraft certificated for more than one pilot flight crewmember if you haven't made three takeoffs and landings in the preceding 90 days. You can act as PIC and fly solo without a problem.
 
Wheels said:
You can act as PIC and fly solo without a problem.
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I've seen this debated in a few parts, to really split hairs the reg states you can't bring anyone in the plane "...other than those necessary for the conduct of the flight"
^so does this mean that if I haven't flown at night in 5 years, and I do not feel comfortable going up alone I could bring a non CFI *but* night current pilot along for the ride?
I would consider that person "necessary for the conduct of the flight" - would the FAA? To be clear, I would bring a CFI because why ruffle any feathers, and I want to make sure it is definitely PIC loggable, etc.

But I think rather than get bogged down in the "letter" of the law I believe the "spirit" of the law is to keep people alive.. and bringing a night current pilot along for the ride would seem to satisfy the spirit of that...

But to go further than that, I really don't think just flying enough to be at legal minimums makes you a safe pilot. I wouldn't bring pax along if I was just barely meeting the requirements, simply feels restless. Frankly, if I don't fly in more then 2-3 weeks at a time I definitely start to feel rusty
 
MAKG1 said:
The wording of the reg is pretty clear. You can't act as PIC if you haven't made three takeoffs and landings in the preceding 90 days. .
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Say what?
 
Wheels said:
Your wording is also imprecise. The wording of the reg is pretty clear that you can't act as PIC carrying passengers or of an aircraft certificated for more than one pilot flight crewmember if you haven't made three takeoffs and landings in the preceding 90 days. You can act as PIC and fly solo without a problem.
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And while we're on the subject of precise wording, it's "within" the preceding 90 days, not "in." To me, the latter might imply that if I was out of currency this morning and then went up solo to do my three takeoffs and landings, I still couldn't take a passenger with me until tomorrow. I think "within" avoids that potential problem.
 
Tantalum said:
I've seen this debated in a few parts, to really split hairs the reg states you can't bring anyone in the plane "...other than those necessary for the conduct of the flight"
^so does this mean that if I haven't flown at night in 5 years, and I do not feel comfortable going up alone I could bring a non CFI *but* night current pilot along for the ride?
I would consider that person "necessary for the conduct of the flight" - would the FAA? To be clear, I would bring a CFI because why ruffle any feathers, and I want to make sure it is definitely PIC loggable, etc.

But I think rather than get bogged down in the "letter" of the law I believe the "spirit" of the law is to keep people alive.. and bringing a night current pilot along for the ride would seem to satisfy the spirit of that...

But to go further than that, I really don't think just flying enough to be at legal minimums makes you a safe pilot. I wouldn't bring pax along if I was just barely meeting the requirements, simply feels restless. Frankly, if I don't fly in more then 2-3 weeks at a time I definitely start to feel rusty
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The pilot you brought along would have to act as PIC until you had flown the required number of takeoffs and landings.
 
Tantalum said:
I've seen this debated in a few parts, to really split hairs the reg states you can't bring anyone in the plane "...other than those necessary for the conduct of the flight"
^so does this mean that if I haven't flown at night in 5 years, and I do not feel comfortable going up alone I could bring a non CFI *but* night current pilot along for the ride?
I would consider that person "necessary for the conduct of the flight" - would the FAA? To be clear, I would bring a CFI because why ruffle any feathers, and I want to make sure it is definitely PIC loggable, etc.

But I think rather than get bogged down in the "letter" of the law I believe the "spirit" of the law is to keep people alive.. and bringing a night current pilot along for the ride would seem to satisfy the spirit of that...

But to go further than that, I really don't think just flying enough to be at legal minimums makes you a safe pilot. I wouldn't bring pax along if I was just barely meeting the requirements, simply feels restless. Frankly, if I don't fly in more then 2-3 weeks at a time I definitely start to feel rusty
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Yes, you can do it with a night current non CFI, he will be the one acting as PIC not you. You will be able to log PIC if you are the sole manipulator of the controls but you will not be able to act as PIC until you complete your three take-offs and landings to a full stop.
 
Thanks, important distinction there too in "acting" as PIC vs "logging" PIC
 
Clark1961 said:
Remain VFR. Okay, not the 1 day thing but it's an easy call for me to make. If I haven't flown a practice approach or a real one lately then I'm just not going to fly one in IMC. The current and at least marginally proficient thing is pretty important when it comes to keeping the aircraft right side up by looking at a few gizmos or a tv screen.
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I have heard of people with (as my Dad used to say) more money than brains, who have a very nice aircraft with autopilot, etc., and fly IMC without a rating using the autopilot and depending on it. This is crazy! The rules we follow, (which are, by the way, mostly depending on honor (sometimes kind of rare these days!!)), are in place to keep us safe, not to ruin our weekend plans. Anyone who would do something like suggested by the OP is, in my opinion, dishonoring all the other pilots out there. Don't do it. I am certainly not going to, and I am rated just not current.
 
There was a PC12 in Florida that crashed (actually I think it was Casey Anthony's lawyer's old plane?) that crashed when the pilot lost control of the plane in IMC... apparently he was sitting there fiddling with the autopilot and was unfamiliar with its operation

Some planes with an autopilot would really benefit from an "oh s***!" button that would get you wings and attitude level (assuming of course you haven't hopelessly spun the damn thing)
 
somorris said:
I have heard of people with (as my Dad used to say) more money than brains, who have a very nice aircraft with autopilot, etc., and fly IMC without a rating using the autopilot and depending on it. This is crazy! The rules we follow, (which are, by the way, mostly depending on honor (sometimes kind of rare these days!!)), are in place to keep us safe, not to ruin our weekend plans. Anyone who would do something like suggested by the OP is, in my opinion, dishonoring all the other pilots out there. Don't do it. I am certainly not going to, and I am rated just not current.
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Settle down there turbo. I've gone to great lengths to say I would not EVER do it. And I would never encourage anyone else to. Ever.

In fact, I cancelled my weekend plans and reservations already, specifically because I *refuse* to do it.
 
denverpilot said:
Probably wouldn't, since you'd file with the aircraft tail number and not anything that identified you... but meta-data might link you, or the sound of your voice on the call to the briefer / LiveATC recording, etc etc etc.

So really it'd be a case of whether or not there was a reason to come find you, and once there was, there's always a paper trail... someone, if not you, owns the aircraft and knows who was flying it that day, etc.
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Huh . . . Right there on the form, every time I've ever filed, is a spot for Pilot's Name. When I file on the phone, they always ask, and if you use FF, FltPlanGo or any other service or app registered to you, then your name is reported. "But I filed for my friend . . . No, I can't tell you his name. What, you want to see my logbook?" And there you are, if the flight is logged in your book and no Safety Pilot name is shown. It's called "hoist on your own petard."
 
Hank S said:
Huh . . . Right there on the form, every time I've ever filed, is a spot for Pilot's Name. When I file on the phone, they always ask, and if you use FF, FltPlanGo or any other service or app registered to you, then your name is reported. "But I filed for my friend . . . No, I can't tell you his name. What, you want to see my logbook?" And there you are, if the flight is logged in your book and no Safety Pilot name is shown. It's called "hoist on your own petard."
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John Smith.
 
Palmpilot said:
As a commercial pilot exercising sport pilot privileges.
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I figured as much and you knew my post wasn't referring to exercising Sport Pilot privileges. Any more wise ass comments you'd like to add?
 
Tantalum said:
I've seen this debated in a few parts, to really split hairs the reg states you can't bring anyone in the plane "...other than those necessary for the conduct of the flight"
^so does this mean that if I haven't flown at night in 5 years, and I do not feel comfortable going up alone I could bring a non CFI *but* night current pilot along for the ride?
I would consider that person "necessary for the conduct of the flight" - would the FAA? To be clear, I would bring a CFI because why ruffle any feathers, and I want to make sure it is definitely PIC loggable, etc.
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"Necessary for the conduct of the flight" mans, "the regulations require the other pilot to be there," not "I feel the need to have someone there."

But yes, you can bring the current pilot along. Or rather, the current pilot can act as PIC on the flight and bring you along. Nothing says you can't perform takeoffs and landings with passengers on board else on board, just that you can't act as PIC. If your current friend is willing to take PIC responsibility for the flight, he can permit you to do the takeoffs and landings, even with other passengers in board.

The regulation really means no more nor less than it says.

Edit. Sorry, I missed this was already answered.
 
Hank S said:
Is that how you registered with ForeFlight?
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I already said metadata would hang you doing this. Hell no, you wouldn't file with ForeFlight if you're the sort to do this stupidity AND smart enough to get away with it for a while.
 
ircphoenix said:
Settle down there turbo. I've gone to great lengths to say I would not EVER do it. And I would never encourage anyone else to. Ever.

In fact, I cancelled my weekend plans and reservations already, specifically because I *refuse* to do it.
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I know you cancelled your trip and said you would not do that, which is exactly what most of us would do. I made the post for others who may not be as responsible. Sorry for any offense.
 
somorris said:
I know you cancelled your trip and said you would not do that, which is exactly what most of us would do. I made the post for others who may not be as responsible. Sorry for any offense.
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If that's what you meant, then I got defensive for no reason. I just wanted to make it abundantly clear that I wasn't suggesting actually doing it in the original post. Cheers!
 
Flying IMC without the rating, yeah, with pax, I'd call that immoral.

But one day out of currency, or an expired medical? Those are regulatory exposures/risks for you, but it's silly to call them "immoral" . . .
 
ircphoenix said:
Okay so now that I've officially cancelled my trip to Sedona this weekend due to low ceilings predicted....

You have to file the file the name of the PIC with the IFR flight plan. It would be easy an easy stretch to get caught and not worth getting a certificate suspended or revoked over.
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