IFR violations

First, this is illegal and dangerous so don't do it.

But, as long as you ask for a pop-up IFR (as opposed to file IFR) and never screw up, and never give any controller any reason to question your validity, no one will ever ask and no one will ever care.

In 35 years I must have issued a quarter of a million local IFRs and I have never once questioned anyone enough to pursue it. I have wondered more than once if the guy knew what he was doing but I never pursued it.

tex
 
It happens. It happens a lot.
I've known a number of former WWII, and Korean War era pilots who got their PPL (some didn't even bother with that) and filed IFR on a regular basis.
Or worse, flew IFR and didn't bother to file at all.
Of the guys I know who were "guilty", only one (to the best of my knowledge) ever had an incident.
He got hit by a maintenance vehicle at a non-towered airport as he taxied to his hanger after landing in the fog. He claimed he was taxi testing his airplane, and since the airport was closed due to weather didn't think anyone would be stupid enough to be driving around on the taxiway.
In their defense, these were guys who had flown tens of thousands of hours in hideous conditions during the war.
But even I thought it was a little stupid and a lot selfish.
 
Dave S. said:
First, this is illegal and dangerous so don't do it.

But, as long as you ask for a pop-up IFR (as opposed to file IFR) and never screw up, and never give any controller any reason to question your validity, no one will ever ask and no one will ever care.

In 35 years I must have issued a quarter of a million local IFRs and I have never once questioned anyone enough to pursue it. I have wondered more than once if the guy knew what he was doing but I never pursued it.

tex
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People lie all the time.

Ever see this one?
Forward to about the 6:19 mark on the video...controller asks him directly if he's capable of IFR flight and he says ...uhh...yes.

2,200 hours of flight.

 
drotto said:
I know someone that had an ATC call while on flight following, that sounded like the controller assumed he had an IFR rating. Not sure the exact words were, but they were cleared to descend through the layer when given an altitude change.
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I was once given "N5545S, descend and maintain 5000" while on flight following. Not a descent through a layer as it was CAVU, but definitely an IFR instruction. I was checking in with Selfridge Approach, I think it was, after a handoff. The controller was just confused, and corrected himself momentarily.
 
Walboy said:
Why is that an IFR instruction?
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  1. It's a normal approach descent.
  2. Even thousands are for IFR; VFR uses the -500 foot altitudes.
  3. Even on Flight Following, it is unusual to be instructed to do something, I normally receive requests or recommendations.
  4. This is the exact phraseology used with IFR flight.
 
I just think approach giving an odd thousand altitude is weird for a VFR aircraft and probably made a mistake. I get vectors and am told to maintain VFR altitudes all the time in NY airspace.
 
azure said:
Not a descent through a layer as it was CAVU, but definitely an IFR instruction.
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I've had that happen to me and I honestly thinks it's cool and work to comply down to the t. I did once right after getting my PPL get advised to ascend to 4,500 and it would have put me in the clouds, I was on FF around Boston Bravo enroute to Montauk under 4,500 foot ceilings +/- 300 depending. I simply advised "unable due to ceilings and VFR only" and they were polite enough, just told me to stay as high as reasonable and remain VFR. I coasted along at 4,300ish just under the clouds..
 
I've gotten it on at least two different occasions near a charlie followed by a resume own nav after a few minutes. It worked for whatever the controller had going on.
 
Dave S. said:
First, this is illegal and dangerous so don't do it.

But, as long as you ask for a pop-up IFR (as opposed to file IFR) and never screw up, and never give any controller any reason to question your validity, no one will ever ask and no one will ever care.

In 35 years I must have issued a quarter of a million local IFRs and I have never once questioned anyone enough to pursue it. I have wondered more than once if the guy knew what he was doing but I never pursued it.

tex
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1) I totally respect controllers, so don't take this the wrong way.

2) Dangerous? Maybe, maybe not. Let's say someone is super proficient and just never did the ride. Or, a 30 year airline guy that lost his cert for some silly reason. Dangerous? No. illegal? Okay... yes.

4) A quarter million??? I doubt it.

But, you guys are great and hats off....
 
denverpilot said:
Probably wouldn't, since you'd file with the aircraft tail number and not anything that identified you... but meta-data might link you, or the sound of your voice on the call to the briefer / LiveATC recording, etc etc etc.
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FWIW, the flight plan form has the pilot's name and address. If you file via ForeFlight or through Duat(s), it will have your name associated with it as well.

That said, I have never heard of anyone getting busted for filing without the rating.

I have seen a few accident reports where a non-IR pilot flew into IMC and crashed and through the course of the investigation, it was discovered that the accident pilot frequently filed and flew IFR without the rating.

In other words, flying IFR without the rating: you'll probably get away with it....until you don't.
 
Fearless Tower said:
FWIW, the flight plan form has the pilot's name and address. If you file via ForeFlight or through Duat(s), it will have your name associated with it as well.

That said, I have never heard of anyone getting busted for filing without the rating.

I have seen a few accident reports where a non-IR pilot flew into IMC and crashed and through the course of the investigation, it was discovered that the accident pilot frequently filed and flew IFR without the rating.

In other words, flying IFR without the rating: you'll probably get away with it....until you don't.
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I doubt many try.
 
Fearless Tower said:
FWIW, the flight plan form has the pilot's name and address. If you file via ForeFlight or through Duat(s), it will have your name associated with it as well.

That said, I have never heard of anyone getting busted for filing without the rating.

I have seen a few accident reports where a non-IR pilot flew into IMC and crashed and through the course of the investigation, it was discovered that the accident pilot frequently filed and flew IFR without the rating.

In other words, flying IFR without the rating: you'll probably get away with it....until you don't.
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You came in late and missed that we covered this.

"John Smith"

And...

"Pop-up."

I have zero interest in doing it, but it's pretty easy to figure out how. Don't use methods of receiving a clearance that require identification. Or lie. I'm
sure people do it.

It's not a secure system.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Meh. The real sh#t that happens is much funnier (and scarier). If anyone thinks there's no such thing as a stupid question, hang out in a lower level criminal court that's holding trials or hearings for a day or two.
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I got a ticket for backending a truck (car in front of truck stopped short, truck stopped short, I didn't). Got careless driving ticket. Went to court dressed properly. Everyone else there was in torn jeans, etc. Everyone argued with the judge. He gets to me, I explain what happened. He asked why I was there - I had just come from teaching afterschool program on aviation to middle school kids as part of my activities in CAP. Didn't get the ticket waived, but it got knocked down to 2 points, as low as he could go.
 
Tantalum said:
I've had that happen to me and I honestly thinks it's cool and work to comply down to the t. I did once right after getting my PPL get advised to ascend to 4,500 and it would have put me in the clouds, I was on FF around Boston Bravo enroute to Montauk under 4,500 foot ceilings +/- 300 depending. I simply advised "unable due to ceilings and VFR only" and they were polite enough, just told me to stay as high as reasonable and remain VFR. I coasted along at 4,300ish just under the clouds..
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I thought it was cool at the time, too. ;) But that was years before I was IFR-rated. Today I would want to clear that up ASAP so as not to perpetuate any confusion.

And yes, I know it's possible to get that in or near Bravo or Charlie airspaces, but I was far from anything like that. As I recall I was over the Michigan Thumb, not too far from Bad Axe.

It might have been Cleveland Center rather than Selfridge, come to think of it.
 
Hank S said:
  1. It's a normal approach descent.
  2. Even thousands are for IFR; VFR uses the -500 foot altitudes.
  3. Even on Flight Following, it is unusual to be instructed to do something, I normally receive requests or recommendations.
  4. This is the exact phraseology used with IFR flight.
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ATC can, will and does issue such instruction to VFR flights. You can get vectors and altitude assignments on departure and approach. You can get altitude assignments enroute despite the hemispheric rule if traffic separation requires it. VFR is allowed to use a Victor airways just the same as IFR. VFR must fly +500 on plan until otherwise instructed by ATC.

Try flying in busy air on either coast and you will get plenty of these assignments.
 
citizen5000 said:
ATC can, will and does issue such instruction to VFR flights. You can get vectors and altitude assignments on departure and approach. You can get altitude assignments enroute despite the hemispheric rule if traffic separation requires it. VFR is allowed to use a Victor airways just the same as IFR. VFR must fly +500 on plan until otherwise instructed by ATC.

Try flying in busy air on either coast and you will get plenty of these assignments.
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By the way, exceptions to the VFR cruising altitudes don't have to be assigned by ATC; per 91.159, it's enough for them to be "authorized" by ATC.
 
citizen5000 said:
ATC can, will and does issue such instruction to VFR flights. You can get vectors and altitude assignments on departure and approach. You can get altitude assignments enroute despite the hemispheric rule if traffic separation requires it. VFR is allowed to use a Victor airways just the same as IFR. VFR must fly +500 on plan until otherwise instructed by ATC.

Try flying in busy air on either coast and you will get plenty of these assignments.
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It's not so much the fact of being given an altitude assignment by itself as the airspace it was being given in, the altitude assigned, and the exact phraseology used, all taken together, that clued me in that I was being mistaken for an IFR.

1. This was in the middle of nowhere. The closest busy airspace was over 100 nm away. It was also nowhere close to an arrival corridor.

2. In sparsely-traveled airspace, the most I've ever been given by ATC while VFR is an altitude limitation, not a strict assignment. "Maintain VFR above 3000" or some such. Even then, altitude limitations on VFR traffic (in Michigan, anyway) are quite rare outside of the lateral boundaries of Class B and Class C airspace.

3. Even when being given a strict altitude assignment, if you're VFR the controller will typically say something like "descend and maintain VFR at 5000". The exact phrase this controller used was "descend and maintain 5000".

4. By itself this wouldn't clinch it, but yes, the fact that it was an integer thousand, and not an integer thousand plus 500, certainly added to my suspicion that the controller was confused.
 
The first time you do anything, fly without a medical that expired 3 days ago, or with a woman not your wife, or file IFR, something will happen to the airplane and you'll need to declare or have something happen to bring you to the attention of the FAA., . . .

You know it. I know it. We're too honest to NOT have it happen to us.

The REAL scofflaws are out there punching holes in clouds IFR all the time. How do I know? "Traffic, 1 mile, indicates 7500, same direction' and I'm at 7000 socked in clouds that I know extend above me at least 1000 feet because I just descended through them.
 
citizen5000 said:
ATC can, will and does issue such instruction to VFR flights. You can get vectors and altitude assignments on departure and approach. You can get altitude assignments enroute despite the hemispheric rule if traffic separation requires it. VFR is allowed to use a Victor airways just the same as IFR. VFR must fly +500 on plan until otherwise instructed by ATC.

Try flying in busy air on either coast and you will get plenty of these assignments.
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That's one reason I stopped using flight following when VFR - once you accept it, you're obliged to comply.
 
Sundancer said:
That's one reason I stopped using flight following when VFR - once you accept it, you're obliged to comply.
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How is having to hold an altitude that big an issue. Whenever I have used flight following the controller generally asks if I am flying direct and where, what altitude do I want, and call when destination in sight or when you will get handed off. Any time they ask me to do something it is for my own safety, like a bearing change to avoid traffic. How is that bad? Furthermore, with altitude they usually just request notification if you change. Again, you ask, and if it looks safe, ATC says ok. So yes you may have to comply when in contact, but the vast majority of the time it is for safety reasons. Flight following is not very restrictive.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
drotto said:
How is having to hold an altitude that big an issue. Whenever I have used flight following the controller generally asks if I am flying direct and where, what altitude do I want, and call when destination in sight or when you will get handed off. Any time they ask me to do something it is for my own safety, like a bearing change to avoid traffic. How is that bad? Furthermore, with altitude they usually just request notification if you change. Again, you ask, and if it looks safe, ATC says ok. So yes you may have to comply when in contact, but the vast majority of the time it is for safety reasons. Flight following is not very restrictive.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
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Holding altitude? It's not too hard. . .I know how FF works; I'm just not that wrapped up in uber-safety, especially not in cruise. Cruise mid-airs are very, very far down the list of things that kill in GA. And sometimes I just don't want to talk to (or bother) ATC when I'm VFR. It's legal, it's not fattening, and silence can be golden. And while it's not "very restrictive", not having it at all is even less restrictive. The ROI isn't there for me. .
 
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