Amazon Freighter Runway Overrun, Fire, MIA, 9/6

AquaLand said:
No indication in FDR data that speed brakes or thrust reversers were applied at any time
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Anybody know what operational conditions must be met for the speed brakes and reversers to be armed or deploy on the 767?
 
iamtheari said:
I don't know whether a go-around at that point in time was the right decision or the wrong one. But I think that changing your mind after you decide to go around is always the wrong one.
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Yeah, that's the main thing. You gotta make one decision, not all of them.

The CVR seems like the last hope for these guys.
 
Bell206 said:
Anybody know what operational conditions must be met for the speed brakes and reversers to be armed or deploy on the 767?
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Thrust reversers are straight manual, just pull…. There is no arming them. Can’t remember if there was an interlock that would prevent you from pulling them airborn, which they essentially were wheelbarrowing down the runway.

I’ve got a 75/76 type but can’t remember if you arm the spoilers (just more panels than speed brakes, on deck only) by lifting the handle to a detent after lowering the gear, but I’m 99 percent sure that’s the case.

Then when the a/c senses on deck (weight on wheels and possibly spin up), they deploy. The pilot monitoring usually calls out spoiler deployment and if they don’t, calls for manual activation or just pulls them… uh, maybe kinda sorta like I did one night during a captains greaser, uh, which I kinda really made a mess of by doing so… there were reasons. It’s a story for another thread…

But there’s no reason these things weren’t done. The jet should also have auto brakes, which won’t activate if the spoilers don’t deploy.

None of this is surprising given the entirety of the event. And really not even interesting.

If it’s true there was a momentary application of power for an attempted go around, two things. It’ll put the spoilers back down (if they were up, it’s a throttle position thing, common way to stow them after clearing the runway, again high 90s sure, 100 percent sure on the md80). Second, that SCREAMS they were just locked up by that point and who wouldn’t be?!!
 
Tools said:
Then when the a/c senses on deck (weight on wheels and possibly spin up), they deploy.
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Do both mains need to be on the ground for the spoilers/reverse to deploy?
Do yo recall if there also an airspeed component to whether the spoilers/reverse will deploy?
If neither the spoilers/reverse deploy when commanded, do you remember what warning/caution lights will illuminate?
 
Tools said:
If it’s true there was a momentary application of power for an attempted go around, two things. It’ll put the spoilers back down (if they were up, it’s a throttle position thing, common way to stow them after clearing the runway, again high 90s sure, 100 percent sure on the md80). Second, that SCREAMS they were just locked up by that point and who wouldn’t be?!!
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There is no doubt they started to go around, it’s part of the FDR data. Unless the T/R sub levers aren’t locked out of power application when the T/Rs aren’t deployed, which I doubt. Fifteen seconds after initial touchdown they made the choice to attempt a go around only to change their mind four seconds later. Given what occurred preceding this, it doesn’t surprise me. Why the spoilers or T/Rs didn’t deploy will be determined soon. The NTSB stated in yesterday’s briefing that they would supply the CVR transcript today after interviewing the crew.
 
Bell206 said:
Anybody know what operational conditions must be met for the speed brakes and reversers to be armed or deploy on the 767?
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See my post #17. Given that the 757/767 types were developed in parallel and share a common type rating, I’d expect the air/ground sensing and thrust reverser systems to be similar.
 
3393RP said:
The many comments about legal liability and who will be suing whom are rather distasteful and unrelated to the aviation aspects of the incident, which is the purpose of this forum.
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I suppose that's true. I guess when you have seen as much as I have, you get a bit jaded. Aviation accidents so typically raise so many legal issues that make for excellent law school exam questions that are interesting in addition to the technical issues.
 
This is from a questionable source, and I don't have time to check it ATM. So I'm putting it here in case anyone already knows.

Is it true that the FO TT 2600 hrs 767, typed April 2025, likely had more time than the Capt in 76.
Capt. TT 7145 hrs. 767 Typed May 2026

Allegedly this was in the 2nd NTSB briefing.
 
Bell206 said:
Do both mains need to be on the ground for the spoilers/reverse to deploy?
Do yo recall if there also an airspeed component to whether the spoilers/reverse will deploy?
If neither the spoilers/reverse deploy when commanded, do you remember what warning/caution lights will illuminate?
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Among several others I'm typed on the 757/767, but it's been a few years.

Spoilers are armed by pulling speed brake handle up and a green annunciator on the panel shows armed. Spoiler deployment takes completing the ground logic (weight on wheels) and the spool up of the mains, plus switches that measure truck tilt. I don't believe the reversers have a flight/ground lockout.

I think I know where my old AFM is hiding. I'll try to look it up.
 
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172andyou said:
This is from a questionable source, and I don't have time to check it ATM. So I'm putting it here in case anyone already knows.

Is it true that the FO TT 2600 hrs 767, typed April 2025, likely had more time than the Capt in 76.
Capt. TT 7145 hrs. 767 Typed May 2026

Allegedly this was in the 2nd NTSB briefing.
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Sounds like what I heard on the briefing. I think this will become less important than elementary landing skills and the ADM that took place. I’m looking forward to hearing about their duty day and how it added to whatever they already lacked.
 
Bell206 said:
Do both mains need to be on the ground for the spoilers/reverse to deploy?
Do yo recall if there also an airspeed component to whether the spoilers/reverse will deploy?
If neither the spoilers/reverse deploy when commanded, do you remember what warning/caution lights will illuminate?
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Been awhile so memory is hazy. Spoiler auto deployment takes some weight on wheels signal, can't remember the specifics. If they didn't deploy on touchdown the PM would call it out and Captain would pull the lever manually. You would at least get flight spoilers if no WOW signal. The handle position is the indicator for deployed or not.
 
172andyou said:
This is from a questionable source, and I don't have time to check it ATM. So I'm putting it here in case anyone already knows.

Is it true that the FO TT 2600 hrs 767, typed April 2025, likely had more time than the Capt in 76.
Capt. TT 7145 hrs. 767 Typed May 2026

Allegedly this was in the 2nd NTSB briefing.
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I don’t think it’s unusual to pair newer captains with experienced copilots.

But I’ve also been the copilot they scheduled when they felt the need for a babysitter.
 
172andyou said:
This is from a questionable source, and I don't have time to check it ATM. So I'm putting it here in case anyone already knows.

Is it true that the FO TT 2600 hrs 767, typed April 2025, likely had more time than the Capt in 76.
Capt. TT 7145 hrs. 767 Typed May 2026

Allegedly this was in the 2nd NTSB briefing.
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If the FO has 2600 hours in the 767, but was typed April 2025, that doesn't make sense as 121 supplemental is limited to 1000 hours per year.
 
From the NTSB briefing:

30 seconds from initial touchdown (NW & RMLG) to end of recording. 158 kts (ground speed).

23 seconds before end of recording (BER) brakes were applied. 146 kts.

19 seconds BER the LMLG touched down. 134 kts.

15 seconds BER the brakes were released, power was increased for go around. 120 kts.

11 seconds BER the throttles reduced to idle power. Brakes reapplied. 117 kts.

7 seconds BER lateral, longitude, and vertical acceleration changes began [overrun starts]. 96 kts.

0 seconds/EOR, 65 kts.


So basically on top of the long-fast extended touchdown, PF (likely the Captain based on ATC recording) waffled on go-around only making a bad situation horribly worse)

Absolutely unbelievable...
 
This boils down to CRM misconduct. No excuses for these two.

So, what does it take to get qualified in a 767? Does it involve an unmarked envelope full of cash misplaced in someone's desk that is located at a training facility? Or does the chief pilot get a cut? Serious question.

I have a few hours in Ace Combat 7 so I should be able to fly F15's.
 
Discussions on relying on thrust reversers to stop the plane are misguided. Long and fast means go around early. They should never have gotten to that point.
 
FlightmechH3 said:
This boils down to CRM misconduct. No excuses for these two.
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OK, so since you are obviously involved in the active investigation you've listened to the CVR, yes? Can you give us some details of this "CRM misconduct"?
FlightmechH3 said:
So, what does it take to get qualified in a 767? Does it involve an unmarked envelope full of cash misplaced in someone's desk that is located at a training facility? Or does the chief pilot get a cut? Serious question.
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Not a serious question.
 
Lets hope this crew would have given more consideration (risk assessment) had they had 300 or so sardines crammed in the back vs tons of Chinese crap.
 
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FlightmechH3 said:
7,100 hrs total - Captain
2,600 hrs total - FO

Total is everything (Cessnas, helos, etc)
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The wording from the briefing:

The captain is 55 years old,
received his type rating in the 76 in May 2026.
According to his latest class one medical, which is dated March 31st, 2026,
he has 7,145 hours.
The first officer, aged 37, received his type rating in the 76 on April 2nd, 2025.
According to his class one medical dated August 13, 2026, he has 2,655
hours.

No time in type was given. Other than the two briefings, there has not yet been released any other information from the NTSB (except for some B roll of the investigators on the crash scene.
 
Here's the correct original Juan Browne (Blancolirio) link, followed by his follow-up video today. Sorry for posting the wrong one yesterday.



The main additional information is FDR analysis indicating changes of mind about attempting a go-around, probably too late, then canceling it. Pilot interviews and the cockpit voice recorder are anticipated today.

HHHMD VisitedStatesMap.gif
 
Do the pilots have to testify?
Seems it would be in their best interest not to. Or have their attorney give a statement.
 
"Numerous senior staff members have filed complaints against 21 Air, a North Carolina-based operator controlled by Houston Astros owner Jim Crane through an LLC — with some saying they long feared a tragedy like Sunday’s crash.

“It’s something a lot of us ex-21 Air pilots have been anticipating for a while,” retired 21 Air pilot Tony Bless told CBS News, citing perennial concerns like”maintenance safety issues, the pressure out of the chief pilot’s office, and the quality of pilots they would hire.”


Ok, this is now out there. Please go ahead and correct me since I am accused of being directly involved in the investigation. In addition to to this, the DEA and ATF has been probably maybe looking into this carrier for drug and gun running. I'll fix myself another coffee to watch some of you squirm and throw shade at me.

"Whistleblowers have alleged everything from failing to properly document safety concerns to hiring pilots who couldn’t speak English to pressuring pilots to complete their routes too quickly to comply with rest requirements.

“Unfortunately, 21 Air has a long-established history of safety problems,” Karl Seuring, a veteran pilot who filed a legal complaint against the company, told CBS News.

Seuring claimed that when he raised safety concerns he was told by a 21 Air manager, “It’s not going to change.”
 
Fearless Tower said:
From the NTSB briefing:

15 seconds BER the brakes were released, power was increased for go around. 120 kts.

11 seconds BER the throttles reduced to idle power. Brakes reapplied. 117 kts.
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I wonder what the go around would have looked like, had they not given up.

At that point, were they already committed to putting the wheels in the grass?

Or could they have gotten it back off the ground?
 
FlightmechH3 said:
"Numerous senior staff members have filed complaints against 21 Air, a North Carolina-based operator controlled by Houston Astros owner Jim Crane through an LLC — with some saying they long feared a tragedy like Sunday’s crash.

“It’s something a lot of us ex-21 Air pilots have been anticipating for a while,” retired 21 Air pilot Tony Bless told CBS News, citing perennial concerns like”maintenance safety issues, the pressure out of the chief pilot’s office, and the quality of pilots they would hire.”
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Ok, so we have a disgruntled ex pilot taking shots at the company. Oh, and the unnamed “numerous senior staff members”……. Kinda like “confidential sources”.

FlightmechH3 said:
Ok, this is now out there. Please go ahead and correct me since I am accused of being directly involved in the investigation.
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Your previous postings speak for themselves.
FlightmechH3 said:
In addition to to this, the DEA and ATF has been probably maybe looking into this carrier for drug and gun running.
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“Probably maybe”?
FlightmechH3 said:
I'll fix myself another coffee to watch some of you squirm and throw shade at me.
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The only shade being thrown is coming from you. Will you be posting the National Inquirer story next?
FlightmechH3 said:
"Whistleblowers have alleged everything from failing to properly document safety concerns to hiring pilots who couldn’t speak English to pressuring pilots to complete their routes too quickly to comply with rest requirements.

“Unfortunately, 21 Air has a long-established history of safety problems,” Karl Seuring, a veteran pilot who filed a legal complaint against the company, told CBS News.

Seuring claimed that when he raised safety concerns he was told by a 21 Air manager, “It’s not going to change.”
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Doesn’t matter the carrier, when an accident happens the disgruntled come out in force to ride the wave in hopes of furthering their cause and hoping either for revenge or get in on the lawsuits. Nothing new here.
 
First lawsuit filed by wife of white van driver. Named defendants:

Amazon
Amazon Air Cargo
21 Air
Captain
First Officer
 
dmspilot said:
I always thought this page from my company's operating manual was kind of funny. I guess some people need double reminders. (For reference, all go-arounds were referred to as missed approaches.)

View attachment 154908
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Its seems pretty obvious to me (in my limited GA only experience) that they had an inkling that they were in trouble when they came over the fence and flared high. Then they floated, then the horsed the nose over (isn't it ingrained in private pilot students not to do that). It seems like the classic set up for the downwind wheelbarrow landing that seems to catch all of us at least once during our initial efforts to earn the wings. That's 3 opportunities to go around (4 counting the less than stabilized approach well beyond the FAF). Then they attempted a go-around, then abandoned that. And even with the gear on the deck the spoilers and TRs never deploy?...

There's got to be more to the story here than just get-there-itis. :popcorn:
 
AquaLand said:
First lawsuit filed by wife of white van driver. Named defendants:

Amazon
Amazon Air Cargo
21 Air
Captain
First Officer
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I'm sure the contract between 21Air and Amazon is tight and Amazon has zero responsibility. Much like regionals have with the big carriers. Mary Schiavo has covered this topic thoroughly. Her example was the Colgan Air accident where Colgan got pinned for everything.
 
AquaLand said:
First lawsuit filed by wife of white van driver. Named defendants:

Amazon
Amazon Air Cargo
21 Air
Captain
First Officer
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I was told numerous times Amazon doesn’t own the plane?

Wide net they using it.
 
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fasteddie said:
I wonder what the go around would have looked like, had they not given up.

At that point, were they already committed to putting the wheels in the grass?

Or could they have gotten it back off the ground?
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Someone on another site had used ADS-B data and tried to match it up with the briefing reports. Not sure who accurate it is, but if correct, they were less than 1000' from the threshold when they applied Go-Around thrust. It would have been ugly.

But because of that second-guess, they didn't bring the throttles back to idle and reapply the brakes until they were crossing over the numbers at 117 kts...
 
GLMS_NC said:
I'm sure the contract between 21Air and Amazon is tight and Amazon has zero responsibility. Much like regionals have with the big carriers. Mary Schiavo has covered this topic thoroughly. Her example was the Colgan Air accident where Colgan got pinned for everything.
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Depends on the Regional. American settled in the DCA Midair, but they also had ownership of PSA.
 
bonefishpete said:
I was told numerous times Amazon doesn’t own the plane?

I’ll go sit little
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It will all depend on the contract and how involved Amazon was in their contractor operations.

I've seen crazy stuff happen in the legal world...
 
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