She must not have been very attractive. . . .
Amazon Freighter Runway Overrun, Fire, MIA, 9/6
- Thread starter Kenny Phillips
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Tools
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She was… and she said I was cute!!!
But dam, she was HAMMERED. Bad hammered! The scene was kinda comical.
Felt bad, sorta, this was not a close call! The gate agent failed MISERABLY. Which I did not make any kind of deal about… but yet, I got that call.
The kind of call I’ve refused to make in the past.
But dam, she was HAMMERED. Bad hammered! The scene was kinda comical.
Felt bad, sorta, this was not a close call! The gate agent failed MISERABLY. Which I did not make any kind of deal about… but yet, I got that call.
The kind of call I’ve refused to make in the past.
I am just going to let that layup go. . .
Doc Holliday
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The “friendly call” is an FAA requirement under Part 121. A go around (among other items) are required reporting. The CP submits this as a matter of fact, not disciplinary.
The FAA uses it as a data point.
Do the boxes care if they are 15 minutes late?
Roger Wilco
Line Up and Wait
That comes as quite a surprise, and I cannot understand the rationale behind such a policy. My own airline took pains to emphasize that execution of a go-around was considered a judgement call on the part of the crew and would involve no inquiries, reports, or calls from a chief pilot (or anyone else). This accident underscores the soundness of that policy, and I feel fortunate to have worked where I did.
If you were to get such a "friendly" call from your CP today, you could point to CSB 7598 and ask, "would you rather have a situation like that to deal with?"
FlightmechH3
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So the pilot, just after escaping the plane and leaving the other in the wreckage, admitted to a witness on scene after killing several people, that "his career is over".
Nothing like "is anyone hurt?". Mind you, this was a live recording the witness was taking on scene.
Anyone here want to defend this while I drink another coffee?
Nothing like "is anyone hurt?". Mind you, this was a live recording the witness was taking on scene.
Anyone here want to defend this while I drink another coffee?
Roger Wilco
Line Up and Wait
I am not aware of any such FAA requirement. I have heard ATC tell pilots that they are required to ask for the reason and record the response.
Doc Holliday
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Under Part 121 reporting, the air carrier reports to the POI a rejected takeoff, go around and a number of other items.
The purpose is collecting data. Let’s say that at one particular airport the number of go arounds for RWY 27 are increasing, is it an ATC problem or is it another problem creating this? Or is it just one carrier doing this?
Totally benign report, just the facts.
As for ATC, yes they have their reporting as well.
Doc Holliday
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My apologies, I did not realize you were a part of the investigation. Nice to see you are gathering statements from witnesses and not just going by something SGOTI wrote claiming fact.
Please let us know when you release your preliminary report.
Roger Wilco
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Interesting. I have never heard of such a requirement and couldn't find it in 14 CFR 121 (although, out of pure laziness I only did a cursory search). Could it be operator-specific?
dmspilot
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I've never reported a go-around except to ATC and am unaware of any mandatory reporting requirements for go-arounds. Where does this requirement exist?
Here's another legal issue-- I have seen reports that the plane slid off into an Amazon Prime warehouse parking lot. I am not familiar with Amazon's corporate structure, so maybe someone can set me straight on the facts here regarding who those individuals were employed by. If the employees that were killed and/or injured were Amazon employees, and they were on the job at the time of the injury, they may not be able to sue Amazon due to exclusivity of workers compensation benefits. Again, I am not familiar with Florida tort law. But some states provide that worker's compensation is the exclusive remedy for negligence by one's employer. I am not sure if Florida's act works the same way, and if so, what level of responsibility is required to circumnavigate the exclusive remedy. We can certainly debate whether the conduct of the contractor pilots was reckless or gross negligence, but it would seem hard to argue that Amazon itself was sufficiently intentional or reckless enough to get around any worker's compensation exclusivity provision.
bonefishpete
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So will this require a 709 Ride?
Doc Holliday
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It came up as a part of SMS and the FAA’s SAS. It’s trend monitoring.
How each carrier does the reporting is between the carrier and the CMO. The process has been evolving over time. When I was involved it was just a simple “What happened?” followed by registration number, time of day, runway in use, and anything else that was pertinent. Pilots names were typical not even reported.
Doc Holliday
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Somewhere along the way it could happen?
JScarry
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I didn’t see any breakdown of the victims by vehicle.The reporting said that the seven people in the van were airport cleaning crew. There was apparently one SUV on the road outside the fence. One of the dead was 75 years old so presumably in the SUV. The numbers imply that there were two others in the SUV.
Bacho
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Sooner or later the cargo will miss its sorting and cause many customers a delay in delivery. We take such events pretty seriously in my organization. I don’t think that had anything at all to do with this accident.
jayhawk74
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That was my experience as well. In fact at my airline we said there were two good things about a go around. The first is that it would keep us out of the Chief Pilots office. The second is that we would make extra money as it would most likely put us in an overfly situation/
In this crash case given I didnt recieve my two day delivery do I sue the pilots, 21 Charter, Amazon or all of the above? I want and need to sue somebody.
Tools
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delta required a stupid computer report for go arounds, any emergency, lots of stuff.
I would fill them out, “complied with flight operations manual”. And submit.
The call was clearly intimidation. The bad part was the moron admin pilots would make the call….
I was TOLD to write a bad eval on one of my enlisted guys, literally to make something up. I was an ensign, boss was a LCDR. Told him no. Was told again. Told him to eff off… he turned ashen gray….
To sweeten the deal I then said we had a problem, he could either walk away or take me to task, I wouldn’t deny it but would also state I was told to do something ENTIRELY unethical. He walked away, prolly did it himself, none of my business. Wasn’t asked to debrief that eval either!
So ya, from what I saw, delta’s safety culture is patently horrible, ask Karlene Petit.
The airlines’ specifically target people whose first reaction would be “my career is over” before ANYTHING else, it’s part of the profit margin. I would submit we are a long way from out of the woods on this pendulum swing.
I would fill them out, “complied with flight operations manual”. And submit.
The call was clearly intimidation. The bad part was the moron admin pilots would make the call….
I was TOLD to write a bad eval on one of my enlisted guys, literally to make something up. I was an ensign, boss was a LCDR. Told him no. Was told again. Told him to eff off… he turned ashen gray….
To sweeten the deal I then said we had a problem, he could either walk away or take me to task, I wouldn’t deny it but would also state I was told to do something ENTIRELY unethical. He walked away, prolly did it himself, none of my business. Wasn’t asked to debrief that eval either!
So ya, from what I saw, delta’s safety culture is patently horrible, ask Karlene Petit.
The airlines’ specifically target people whose first reaction would be “my career is over” before ANYTHING else, it’s part of the profit margin. I would submit we are a long way from out of the woods on this pendulum swing.
RyanShort1
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Ironically, the guys that are probably worth the most are the one's willing to do something uncomfortable to save the situation whether or not it causes friction... San Francisco and the 777 comes to mind.
hindsight2020
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Doc Holliday
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Not a regulation, has more to do with interfacing the operator's SMS with the FAA's SAS.
It use to be referenced in the 8900.1 but honestly I don't feel like going hunting for it or where it resides. Like I previously stated, it has more to do with data collection and using SMS to determine if there is a trending problem.
Many items are voluntarily reported between the CH and the CMO. Of course there have been several programs such as VDRP and ASAP which were reporting programs as well.
But back to the thread at hand, there is no "chewing out" for doing a go around. That's pure BS.
Doc Holliday
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Indoc?
In reality before that. In fact I've witnessed some of the poorest decision making coming from the graduates of the program you are currently a part of......
hindsight2020
Final Approach
yeah, def Costa Concordia vibes to it. That FAR 1 PIC stuff is all fun and games until it's time to own up to the mess and count the bodies; everybody is just a "deckhand" all of a sudden. Impostors abound.
hindsight2020
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At first glance I don't see a relevant or salient connection, please elucidate on the point you're trying to make.
Poor decision making.
3393RP
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The dead and injured were in vehicles on the road the aircraft crossed.
The many comments about legal liability and who will be suing whom are rather distasteful and unrelated to the aviation aspects of the incident, which is the purpose of this forum.
Roger Wilco
Line Up and Wait
I see. It must be part of the individual carrier’s SMS program. Safety Management System…there’s irony in the possibility that the Big-Brother-is-Watching aspect may actually serve as a disincentive for certain pilots when faced with an unstable approach, thus undermining the purpose.
At the airline I retired from, FOQUA had made such reporting effectively obsolete. And while no one received calls from the chief pilot for executing a go around, a number of pilots received inquiries from FOQUA reps for NOT going around when they should have. A different, more effective, easier to live with kinda Big Brother.
3393RP
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What information regarding the Bahamas incident allows you to comment on the decision making skills of the pilot? All that's known right now is that the airplane crashed into the ocean after a loss of control. Given the age of the pilot, it's possible a medical emergency was involved. There are other possibilities as well. I realize speculation is the engine that drives this forum, but your observation is rather premature.
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Key points from NTSB briefing #2:
PIC 767 typed in May 2026
IIC provided following timeline, referenced to end of FDR recording:
30 seconds - NLG and right MLG touched down, GS 158 kts
23 seconds - brakes applied, GS 146 kts
19 seconds - Left MLG touched down, GS 134 kts
15 seconds - brakes released, GS 120 kts, throttles increased to GA thrust
11 seconds - throttles reduced to idle, brakes applied, GS 117 kts. Throttles remained at idle and brakes continued to be applied until end of recording
7 seconds - 3-axis accelerations changed, GS 96 kts
0 seconds - GS 65 kts
No indication in FDR data that speed brakes or thrust reversers were applied at any time
PIC 767 typed in May 2026
IIC provided following timeline, referenced to end of FDR recording:
30 seconds - NLG and right MLG touched down, GS 158 kts
23 seconds - brakes applied, GS 146 kts
19 seconds - Left MLG touched down, GS 134 kts
15 seconds - brakes released, GS 120 kts, throttles increased to GA thrust
11 seconds - throttles reduced to idle, brakes applied, GS 117 kts. Throttles remained at idle and brakes continued to be applied until end of recording
7 seconds - 3-axis accelerations changed, GS 96 kts
0 seconds - GS 65 kts
No indication in FDR data that speed brakes or thrust reversers were applied at any time
Look at the flight path, radar, departure time etc. If you can't see it then I can't help you. Have you flown to and from the Bahamas?
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Holy cow, what a mess.
hindsight2020
Final Approach
That's even more football bat than previously reported. I've had literal minors in an 8-engine sim horse around a better touch-n-go than these two muppets did with type ratings. What in the Embry-Riddle is going on in supplemental 120.5?
FAA lets these two anywhere near a revenue seat going forward, we've lost the plot. Maybe the FO could feign up an "undue command influence" narrative, or maybe there's some exculpatory back and forth he/she could use to try salvage whatever residual hiring ability. Captain Costa Concordia otoh? No freggin way.
Tarheelpilot
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Not sure how it is anywhere other than my employer, but these days a go around doesn’t even require a report from the flight crew. The chiefs office doesn’t even know it happens. They couldn’t call if they wanted to do so.
Tarheelpilot
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You mean the DPE kicking around the pan am training center taking bribes. That’s who let these guys have the type rating. We all know how righteous the FAAs designee program is maintained.
Edit: I shouldn’t have said bribes. I meant fees.
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I don't know whether a go-around at that point in time was the right decision or the wrong one. But I think that changing your mind after you decide to go around is always the wrong one.
We don't know that to be the case, but if we did then maybe the MC should just merge every thread in the mishap subforum. Most, if not all, involved a poorly made decision by someone.