Amazon Freighter Runway Overrun, Fire, MIA, 9/6

Mooney Fan said:
You can also flare instead of driving the nose down.
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It looks like they did… and immediately realized that weren’t gonna work!! Have to give them credit for realizing that much.

At that speed flaring is just initiating a climb.

You guys and this complicated flare thing.

A dive into their past and the companies training/policy/culture is gonna find the root cause. Shifting winds and all that MAY have been the trigger, but it didn’t send the shot down the barrel.

Tools
Roger ball
 
bonefishpete said:
Probably be smart for Amazon to quickly settle with the victims and get this behind them.
I do know it was an independent contractor.
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I am not at all familiar with Florida tort law, but why would Amazon settle with the victims for acts of an independent contractor?
 
PPC1052 said:
I am not at all familiar with Florida tort law, but why would Amazon settle with the victims for acts of an independent contractor?
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Because Amazon is much larger and if the lawyers can find any way to connect them, they will. e.g. an email chain showing amazon brass pressuring 21 air to operate a schedule that was more fatiguing than normal for the industry.
 
172andyou said:
Because Amazon is much larger and if the lawyers can find any way to connect them, they will. e.g. an email chain showing amazon brass pressuring 21 air to operate a schedule that was more fatiguing than normal for the industry.
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And so Amazon should throw itself in front of the oncoming train of five wrongful death suits? The more likely it is that the lawyers think they can connect Amazon to this, the less likely they are to settle quickly....
 
172andyou said:
Because Amazon is much larger and if the lawyers can find any way to connect them, they will. e.g. an email chain showing amazon brass pressuring 21 air to operate a schedule that was more fatiguing than normal for the industry.
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Yep. In the USA, all you need to do is make a jury cry.
 
Lindberg said:
And so Amazon should throw itself in front of the oncoming train of five wrongful death suits? The more likely it is that the lawyers think they can connect Amazon to this, the less likely they are to settle quickly....
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Does Amazon want pictures of a wrecked plane blazed with Amazon logos on the nightly news for months or years on end during litigation?

Or this?
IMG_0986.jpeg
 
bonefishpete said:
Does Amazon want pictures of a wrecked plane blazed with Amazon logos on the nightly news for months or years on end during litigation?
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Except it will be out of the news cycle once the NTSB gives their last briefing. Just look at the UPS accident with its mountain of litgants.
 
Bell206 said:
Except it will be out of the news cycle once the NTSB gives their last briefing. Just look at the UPS accident with its mountain of litgants.
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Could be haven’t followed it.
This one is much simpler.
 
Lindberg said:
And so Amazon should throw itself in front of the oncoming train of five wrongful death suits?
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No, no. Not saying that at all. Just saying that they are a big company and IF a lawyer can find a connection then that's a path by which Amazon could be dragged in.
Lindberg said:
The more likely it is that the lawyers think they can connect Amazon to this, the less likely they are to settle quickly....
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Which lawyers do you mean in this sentence? Amazon's? The families'? 21 Air's?
bonefishpete said:
Does Amazon want pictures of a wrecked plane blazed with Amazon logos on the nightly news for months or years on end during litigation?
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I think you dramatically overestimate how much coverage the litigation will get. And, for that matter, how much the public will care. As far as I can tell, the public became numb to horrible news about a decade ago.
 
I'm really starting to question the judgement of experienced or high-time pilots at this time.

The decision by these two pilots to continue the approach, for whatever reason, was insanity. But hey, let's turn things into a soup sandwich so we can get on the ground and not get chewed out for a go-around and cause a delay for the company.

While doing that, let's kill several people in the process.

The sub-culture of some pilots will never admit they made a mistake and go around. They will try and fix it (like these two imbeciles) and end up as a smoking hole in the ground.

CaptM.jpg
 
Probably when you’re past the skid marks you need to go around.

Two previous planes landing had no difficulty except for rain on final that cleared up on 2-3 mile final.
 
In the airline pilot world, everything is based on seniority, not job performance.
I have flown with senior captains who had no business in the cockpit, and junior first officers who were extraordinary pilots.
As a passenger, it's luck of the draw. There was a saying about using superior judgement to avoid the need for superior skill.
I never had any real excitement, but I was always asking myself....what could go wrong?
Complacency has no place in this business. Too much responsibility to be take lightly.
 
FlightmechH3 said:
I'm really starting to question the judgement of experienced or high-time pilots at this time.
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Good thinking! Is it because US Part 121 ops have amassed such a horrendous safety record over the past two decades?
FlightmechH3 said:
...so we can get on the ground and not get chewed out for a go-around and cause a delay for the company.
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Who gets "chewed out" for a go-around, and by whom?
FlightmechH3 said:
The sub-culture of some pilots will never admit they made a mistake and go around.
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What constitutes this "sub-culture" that you speak of, and how are you aware of its existence?

Just as I'm curious about what, exactly, was going on in the cockpit of CSB 7598, I'm also curious about why the SGOTIsti feel so righteously entitled to haughtily pronounce their judgement and savage the character ("two imbeciles") of the pilots. Ref. #55 of this thread.

N.B. I, too, have a very strong personal reaction to this accident, which I shall continue to keep to myself until the investigation is complete and we understand more fully the how and why.
 
bonefishpete said:
Does Amazon want pictures of a wrecked plane blazed with Amazon logos on the nightly news for months or years on end during litigation?

Or this?
View attachment 154861
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Amazon has very deep pockets... and one picture is worth a thousand words. A payday for sure for everyone going to court over this accident...
 
Roger Wilco said:
Good thinking! Is it because US Part 121 ops have amassed such a horrendous safety record over the past two decades?

Who gets "chewed out" for a go-around, and by whom?

What constitutes this "sub-culture" that you speak of, and how are you aware of its existence?

Just as I'm curious about what, exactly, was going on in the cockpit of CSB 7598, I'm also curious about why the SGOTIsti feel so righteously entitled to haughtily pronounce their judgement and savage the character ("two imbeciles") of the pilots. Ref. #55 of this thread.

N.B. I, too, have a very strong personal reaction to this accident, which I shall continue to keep to myself until the investigation is complete and we understand more fully the how and why.
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Sounds like I'm over the target with some heavy flak. Yes, you can step back and wait a year for the official release, but we are here to discuss. Please sit down over there.
 
737steve said:
In the airline pilot world, everything is based on seniority, not job performance.
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Not everything. In the airline pilot world in which I spent 40 years, pilots were required to demonstrate the ability to meet established standards. We could, however, have a discussion about those established standards and how they are applied, but that conversation should happen elsewhere.
737steve said:
I have flown with senior captains who had no business in the cockpit, and junior first officers who were extraordinary pilots.
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I, too, have flown with such pilots, but there were very, very few of them. Fewer than I have fingers to count. Perhaps I was lucky. But one stands-out in a very memorable inflight incident: I was stuck with a captain whom I held in very low regard, just trying to get through a 3-day trip without losing all hope for our species. Suddenly, the SHTF in a very dramatic way. And much to my surprise, that "loathsome" captain rose to the occasion and did a masterful job. Go figure.
737steve said:
As a passenger, it's luck of the draw. There was a saying about using superior judgement to avoid the need for superior skill.
I never had any real excitement, but I was always asking myself....what could go wrong?
Complacency has no place in this business. Too much responsibility to be take lightly.
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Very well put. In particular, asking ourselves "what could go wrong" helps us prepare for those circumstances that we can envision, increasing the probability of a safe flight. But there's always something lurking out there that we could not have anticipated. That's what concerns me most.
 
FlightmechH3 said:
Sounds like I'm over the target with some heavy flak.
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There is no flak and no target. You must be in the wrong war.
FlightmechH3 said:
Yes, you can step back and wait a year for the official release, but we are here to discuss. Please sit down over there.
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I am here to discuss, which is exactly what I'm doing. Do you care to respond to the questions I asked? And yes, I am very comfortably seated with a cup of coffee.
 
Roger Wilco said:
There is no flak and no target. You must be in the wrong war.

I am here to discuss, which is exactly what I'm doing. Do you care to respond to the questions I asked? And yes, I am very comfortably seated with a cup of coffee.
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Of course. Why is there a convicted sex offender flying for that company? I'll wait with my cup of coffee.
 
bonefishpete said:
The aircraft left airport property through a fence across a
public road and killed 5 people what cause would make that acceptable?
I'm talking who's liable. The NTSB will find out the cause.

In one or two years maybe we'll find out the cause though from limited video it seems obvious.
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While it says Amazon on the plane in big numbers, the operator is 21 Air.
 
FlightmechH3 said:
Of course. Why is there a convicted sex offender flying for that company? I'll wait with my cup of coffee.
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That's a question that you'd have to ask the company, as I am not familiar with the personal backgrounds of CSB pilots. Assuming that you are correct, can you draw a link between that fact and the accident under discussion?
 
Roger Wilco said:
That's a question that you'd have to ask the company, as I am not familiar with the personal backgrounds of CSB pilots. Assuming that you are correct, can you draw a link between that fact and the accident under discussion?
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It's the type of people the carrier is hiring
 
172andyou said:
Because Amazon is much larger and if the lawyers can find any way to connect them, they will. e.g. an email chain showing amazon brass pressuring 21 air to operate a schedule that was more fatiguing than normal for the industry.
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I have seen some dumb things in my career, but I would be shocked to find an email from Amazon saying, "Please make sure you get our work done timely per the contract, but don't bother properly staffing your company to do so"
 
PPC1052 said:
Assumes you can get to the jury. An independent contractor defense can be won on summary judgment.
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I suspect both companies will gladly pay to make this go away. We’re not talking a lot of money for Amazon. Who knows maybe 21Air has really good insurance.
 
bonefishpete said:
I suspect both companies will gladly pay to make this go away. We’re not talking a lot of money for Amazon. Who knows maybe 21Air has really good insurance.
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Amazon (or more likely, its insurers) isn't going to pay $15M (just ballparking $3M per death-- you can quibble with my numbers, and I won't tell you you're wrong-- feel free to use your own estimate.) to make this go away without having lost the summary judgment argument first.
 
PPC1052 said:
Amazon (or more likely, its insurers) isn't going to pay $15M (just ballparking $3M per death-- you can quibble with my numbers, and I won't tell you you're wrong-- feel free to use your own estimate.) to make this go away without having lost the summary judgment argument first.
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Not for goodwill? Seems short sighted.

Now who pays for closing down MIA airport?
That’s got to run in the millions.
 
PPC1052 said:
I have seen some dumb things in my career, but I would be shocked to find an email from Amazon saying
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Then perhaps you would be surprised at what people have admitted to in emails, not considering the long term potency of their words.

Enron admitted to their crimes in emails
Microsoft lost their antitrust case due to emails
Goldman Sachs had emails read during congressional hearings after their failure
VW Dieselgate had a paper trail of engineering emails
Wells Fargo and their fake accounts were documented in emails
Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes was brought down by emails
Purdue and the Sackler family paid settlements in part because of emails showing they knew about addiction
Uber was damaged right before IPO by emails showing anti competitive and anti regulatory behavior

Heck, we don't even have to leave aviation. A key factor in holding Boeing accountable (to the tune of billions) for the 737 Max were internal emails joking about regulators and suggesting the plane was designed by people with questionable judgement.

And that's people admitting to things there were involved with. It doesn't even have to be that. I could be a emails from 21 Air documenting zoom discussions with Amazon and summarizing verbal demands to do something harmful to safe flight. Not as damning as the amazon person writing it themself, but 10 of these over the course of a couple years from the desks of multiple people is enough to create the conditions for a settlement.
 
172andyou said:
Then perhaps you would be surprised at what people have admitted to in emails, not considering the long term potency of their words.

Enron admitted to their crimes in emails
Microsoft lost their antitrust case due to emails
Goldman Sachs had emails read during congressional hearings after their failure
VW Dieselgate had a paper trail of engineering emails
Wells Fargo and their fake accounts were documented in emails
Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes was brought down by emails
Purdue and the Sackler family paid settlements in part because of emails showing they knew about addiction
Uber was damaged right before IPO by emails showing anti competitive and anti regulatory behavior

Heck, we don't even have to leave aviation. A key factor in holding Boeing accountable (to the tune of billions) for the 737 Max were internal emails joking about regulators and suggesting the plane was designed by people with questionable judgement.

And that's people admitting to things there were involved with. It doesn't even have to be that. I could be a emails from 21 Air documenting zoom discussions with Amazon and summarizing verbal demands to do something harmful to safe flight. Not as damning as the amazon person writing it themself, but 10 of these over the course of a couple years from the desks of multiple people is enough to create the conditions for a settlement.
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I am not saying people don't do (and document) stupid things. (In fact, it was the first thing I said.) But my point is there is no plausibility to your proposed scenario. The last thing Amazon wants to do is insert itself in the details of flight operations. It will just say, "get the job done," and the rest is the contractor's problem.
 
Roger Wilco said:
Who gets "chewed out" for a go-around, and by whom?
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Everyone I ever saw generated a “friendly” call from the chief pilots office.

I got one, went around for a wind shear alert…

I got one for denying boarding a woman SO DRUNK she had to hang onto the door frame OF THE JET to keep on her feet.

So Capt, tell me about the denied boarding… geesh.
 
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