Air India 787 Crashes in Western India

35 AoA said:
On this note Doc, I'm interested if there has been any evolution in the FAA Medical outlook on psychiatry? Obviously some folks are psychologically incompatible with flying duties....no argument there. But we also have a culture (both in the FAA, as well as the military flying community) where any diagnosis, however treatable, is considered to be disqualifying. So folks just don't get the help they need. I'm less well versed on the civilian/FAA side, so maybe you can educate me if I'm off base. But at least on the mil side, no way is anyone voluntarily reporting something like depression or anxiety. Those folks could go med down for 6-12 months, get essentially preventative maintenance performed before they ever end up in crisis, and return to duty once they have recovered. Instead, folks hide what they might be going through, because they are afraid of being removed from the cockpit permanently with associated career ending impacts to boot. Good buddy of mine did this. This Jan 2nd was the first anniversary of his successful suicide. Come to think of it, he's maybe the 5th person I've known in this business who chose to not speak up, and battle his temporary demons alone.
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I am just a private pilot with no livelihood on the line and I absolutely wouldn't set foot in a therapist or psychiatrist's office unless things were really desperate or someone forced me to.

Besides Mr Flibble and the King of the Potato people both assure me that I'm perfectly sane and everyone else is crazy.
 
francisco collazos said:
I for one would move this switches to the top panels but I don't fly jets so I don't know if that's reasonable.
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Nah, you just need one of these. It's portable. You can take it from plane to plane. Might be good to practice some karate chops to an imaginary Adam's apple too:
 
Kind of like never setting foot in a dentist’s office until things get desperate enough they have to pull the tooth.
 
Did he actually go to a therapist though?

My corporation is all about focusing on your mental health and we talk all the time about taking a day off for mental health. It turns out it’s quite good for your mental health. :biggrin:
 
Ed Haywood said:
Killing 260 people is way beyond taking a day off or having drinking buddies. That is major psychosis, untreated for years, until that person inhabits an alternate reality.
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Again, all speculation.

My point is that without details, taking mental time off from work means nothing.
 
WDD said:
Yes. Left seat guy. Pilot vs CoPilot (right seat guy).
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There is no "the pilot" on an airliner. There are "the pilots", who are the Captain and the First Officer, and sometimes the International Relief Officer(s) on long-haul.

In this case, the person who was doing "the piloting" was the First Officer. That's why we don't say, "the pilot". Too easy to get confused as to whom you are talking about.

Calling the First Officer, "the co-pilot", went out in the 1970s.
 
Is it known for sure the CA made the mayday call or was that a supposition?
 
Another way of looking at it is its Captain and First Officer until they take the runway, and then it’s pilot flying and pilot monitoring.

Until an abnormal occurs, at which point the captain assigns duties and perhaps delegates some authority. He might say I’m going to run the checklists, talk to company, flight attendants and pax, you fly and take the radios, get us on the ground as soon as possible. Or some variation thereof.

They are equally qualified to operate the machine, the capt is ultimately responsible.
 
Larry in TN said:
How is (disqualifying) depression diagnosed? Would the patient generally be aware of their depression?
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Absolutely, they would. Briefly, the current guidelines for Major Depressive Disorder (or clinical depression) require the presence of persistent feelings of sadness/emptiness/hopelessness most of the day, nearly every day, and decreased pleasure/interest in most regular activities. These have to be present continuously for at least 2 weeks. In addition, for a diagnosis, several additional symptoms need to be experienced (like changes in appetite, concentration, or sleep). These are assessed via patient self report inventories/interviews. There are physical conditions with similar symptoms that should be excluded. That being said, for many reasons, medical professionals often don’t use the published criteria before diagnosis and prescribing antidepressants.
 
X3 Skier said:
Why?
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Like was said, both are trained to fly the airplane, and in fact, on any given trip, FO and CA generally alternate flying legs (PF) with the other monitoring or PM. I think those who aren't familiar with the industry, wrongly assume the CA is always flying the plane, and the "co-pilot" is just there to ya know, I guess do stuff? I always get a little giggle out of the wrong assumptions I hear people make at the airport (or I guess I'd say life in general).
 
Larry in TN said:
There is no "the pilot" on an airliner. There are "the pilots", who are the Captain and the First Officer, and sometimes the International Relief Officer(s) on long-haul.

In this case, the person who was doing "the piloting" was the First Officer. That's why we don't say, "the pilot". Too easy to get confused as to whom you are talking about.

Calling the First Officer, "the co-pilot", went out in the 1970s.
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This.

To me, "the co-pilot" is the other crewmember. If I'm the first officer, my copilot is the captain.
 
The elephant in the room here is mass murder, not depression.

What mental condition or process causes a seemingly normal and productive professional (or anybody) to plot a suicide that also includes murdering hundreds of innocent people? Psychotropic meds should have warnings on the bottle that say "Warning: Use of this drug may cause the user to experience the urge to commit mass murder". Most (if not all) people who kill innocents, and then themselves, have a history of involvement with various meds.

Medical professionals may know some of their patients are walking time bombs, but the system is designed to keep it all a big secret as they fill out the next prescription and schedule the next therapy session.
 
Rick A said:
The elephant in the room here is mass murder, not depression.
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Yeah, that ^

I'm not buying the depression thing. This was not an impulsive act. It would be very difficult for a normal, non-psychopath to come up with this mode of suicide without considering the hundreds of people they would be directly effecting. I repeat, this was not an impulsive act like steering into a mountainside would be.

Shutting off the fuel is so far from the top of the list of "I want to end it all, how do I do it?" items it's not even conceivable to me that someone would come up with it. You certainly would have to be thinking about it long enough for the realization that you'd be killing hundreds of other people to also dawn on you. Mass murder / suicide is a sign of more than simply depression.
 
35 AoA said:
Like was said, both are trained to fly the airplane, and in fact, on any given trip, FO and CA generally alternate flying legs (PF) with the other monitoring or PM. I think those who aren't familiar with the industry, wrongly assume the CA is always flying the plane, and the "co-pilot" is just there to ya know, I guess do stuff? I always get a little giggle out of the wrong assumptions I hear people make at the airport (or I guess I'd say life in general).
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That’s why I like flying down to the Caribbean and South America. Everyone calls me captain even Though I’m an FO :)
 
Salty said:
This was not an impulsive act.
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We don't even know if it was suicide or not yet, much less impulsive.

It is very easy to imagine things that would make it impulsive. To imagine just a couple.

1) There have been tabloid reports that he had an ailing dad. Pilot might have gotten a text while stepping onto the plane with bad news about pops.

2) Tabloid reports have said that he had taken time off for depression. He might be medicated for that. I don't know Indian regulations, but in the US there are eight antidepressants that can be taken with an SI. If he came off his medication, that can absolutely be mind altering to the point of lacking impulse control. He doesn't even have to have come off his meds intentionally. He might have simply messed up and reloaded his pill container incorrectly.

It's super easy to speculate different scenarios in which the pilot acted impulsively. And it's entirely possible we will never know. In the case of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 we actually have some evidence of forethought and planning and still don't really know what happened. We don't have any meaningful evidence in the current case.
 
172andyou said:
We don't even know if it was suicide or not yet, much less impulsive.

It is very easy to imagine things that would make it impulsive. To imagine just a couple.

1) There have been tabloid reports that he had an ailing dad. Pilot might have gotten a text while stepping onto the plane with bad news about pops.

2) Tabloid reports have said that he had taken time off for depression. He might be medicated for that. I don't know Indian regulations, but in the US there are eight antidepressants that can be taken with an SI. If he came off his medication, that can absolutely be mind altering to the point of lacking impulse control. He doesn't even have to have come off his meds intentionally. He might have simply messed up and reloaded his pill container incorrectly.

It's super easy to speculate different scenarios in which the pilot acted impulsively. And it's entirely possible we will never know. In the case of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 we actually have some evidence of forethought and planning and still don't really know what happened. We don't have any meaningful evidence in the current case.
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I don't believe someone would throw those two switches impulsively. It just doesn't make any sense no matter the situation. By accident, sure. Intentionally, sure. But in a fit of depression, I do not buy it. If you had a suicidal impulse, there are dozens of things that would pop into your mind before that would, as someone said earlier for example, just shove the yoke forward hard. You'd have to contemplate to come up with this scenario - which is more than depression because it would be clear to you that you were going to murder hundreds of people.
 
Salty said:
I don't believe someone would throw those two switches impulsively. It just doesn't make any sense no matter the situation. By accident, sure. Intentionally, sure. But in a fit of depression, I do not buy it. If you had a suicidal impulse, there are dozens of things that would pop into your mind before that would, as someone said earlier for example, just shove the yoke forward hard. You'd have to contemplate to come up with this scenario - which is more than depression because it would be clear to you that you were going to murder hundreds of people.
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You are applying rational thought to an irrational act.

Time will tell. Or not. We may never know.
 
Salty said:
I don't believe someone would throw those two switches impulsively. It just doesn't make any sense no matter the situation. By accident, sure. Intentionally, sure. But in a fit of depression, I do not buy it. If you had a suicidal impulse, there are dozens of things that would pop into your mind before that would, as someone said earlier for example, just shove the yoke forward hard. You'd have to contemplate to come up with this scenario - which is more than depression because it would be clear to you that you were going to murder hundreds of people.
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You don’t know that. You are rational.

What if you believe the 260 people in the plane with you are part of a conspiracy out to get you? Or you are meant to carry out God’s plan for them and yourself? Or the voices just told you to do it? Based on a side effect of taking the medication, or the withdrawal symptoms of jumping off cold turkey, or as part of the mental illness itself? This is all within the realm of possibility with mental illness (diagnosed, misdiagnosed, or undiagnosed).

Don’t limit your thinking of what twisted sh*t is possible.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
You don’t know that. You are rational.

What if you believe the 260 people in the plane with you are part of a conspiracy out to get you? Or you are meant to carry out God’s plan for them and yourself? Or the voices just told you to do it? Based on a side effect of taking the medication, or the withdrawal symptoms of jumping off cold turkey, or as part of the mental illness itself? This is all within the realm of possibility with mental illness (diagnosed, misdiagnosed, or undiagnosed).

Don’t limit your thinking of what twisted sh*t is possible.
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That's more than just depression. That's my point.
 
Rick A said:
The elephant in the room here is mass murder, not depression.

What mental condition or process causes a seemingly normal and productive professional (or anybody) to plot a suicide that also includes murdering hundreds of innocent people? Psychotropic meds should have warnings on the bottle that say "Warning: Use of this drug may cause the user to experience the urge to commit mass murder". Most (if not all) people who kill innocents, and then themselves, have a history of involvement with various meds.

Medical professionals may know some of their patients are walking time bombs, but the system is designed to keep it all a big secret as they fill out the next prescription and schedule the next therapy session.
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Theoretically, someone with untreated Clinical Depression, so wrapped up in desperate inner misery that they see no other way to stop the pain. Imagine someone in this state who feels they can’t seek the help available to everyone else because they might lose their privileges. At some point, no one else matters. Theoretically.
 
Salty said:
Yeah, that ^

I'm not buying the depression thing. This was not an impulsive act. It would be very difficult for a normal, non-psychopath to come up with this mode of suicide without considering the hundreds of people they would be directly effecting. I repeat, this was not an impulsive act like steering into a mountainside would be.

Shutting off the fuel is so far from the top of the list of "I want to end it all, how do I do it?" items it's not even conceivable to me that someone would come up with it. You certainly would have to be thinking about it long enough for the realization that you'd be killing hundreds of other people to also dawn on you. Mass murder / suicide is a sign of more than simply depression.
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While you are correct that many suicides are impulsive, some are meticulously planned.
 
Salty said:
That's more than just depression. That's my point.
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Agreed, but they are somewhat related. Untreated long term depression can gradually deepen and result in more severe psychiatric conditions, including psychosis. That break from reality can happen suddenly and seemingly without warning.

The FAA differentiates between short term and long term depression with the diagnostic term Adjustment Disorder. If you have an adverse life event such as bereavement and you are having trouble accepting your new reality, that is a different animal than Major Depressive Disorder. That's why the FAA, working with experts such as Dr Bruce and others, have provisions for the treatment of adjustment disorder without negative impact on your Aviation Medical Certificate.

Uninformed commentary about medications can be harmful. In many cases medication can be a key part of arresting the process of deepening depression. If your brain chemistry is faulty and you develop a mood disorder related to lack of serotonin, all the talking in the world may not fix it. An SSRI can make a huge difference with minimal negative impact. Big pharma conspiracy theories are often based on little more thought and knowledge than Epstein list and chemtrail posts, but can have real negative impacts on people's lives.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
Untreated long term depression can gradually deepen and result in more severe psychiatric conditions, including psychosis. That break from reality can happen suddenly and seemingly without warning.
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This


Ed Haywood said:
Uninformed commentary about medications can be harmful. In many cases medication can be a key part of arresting that process. If your brain chemistry is faulty and you develop a mood disorder related to lack of serotonin, all the talking in the world may not fix it. An SSRI can make a huge difference with minimal negative impact. Big pharma conspiracy theories often have little more thought and knowledge than Epstein list and chemtrail posts, but can have real negative impacts on people's lives.
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And this…

Worthwhile emphasis deserved.
 
dmspilot said:
Is it known for sure the CA made the mayday call or was that a supposition?
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The AAIB report does not identify who made the mayday call (but I suspect they do know who made it). I think there were early media reports that may have attributed the mayday call to the captain, but many of those reports also stated that the mayday call included details (related to lack of thrust) that are not mentioned in the AAIB report (which just says that "mayday mayday mayday" was called). Thus, I'm not sure how reliable the early media reports were (the author(s) may have just assumed that any mayday call was made by the captain).
 
ldhilljr13 said:
there were early media reports that may have attributed the mayday call to the captain
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Most media reports will attribute all crew actions to the Captain. Reporters have no concept of crew roles and division of duties.

The CVR records multiple audio channels, including separate channels for each pilot's headset. Establishing who said what should not be a challenge.
 
Larry in TN said:
Most media reports will attribute all crew actions to the Captain. Reporters have no concept of crew roles and division of duties.
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Which is odd. Logically they should assume it's ATC's fault . . . since they are in "control". (Why, they even work in the "control tower"!) :biggrin:
 
Ed Haywood said:
Big pharma conspiracy theories are often based on little more thought and knowledge than Epstein list and chemtrail posts, but can have real negative impacts on people's lives.
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I'll note that people now saying the Epstein list doesn't exist also claimed to have seen it, "had it on their desk", or otherwise celled for its release not very long ago. But I otherwise agree with you- that list is a bad example of a conspiracy theory.
 
Salty said:
I don't believe someone would throw those two switches impulsively. It just doesn't make any sense no matter the situation. By accident, sure. Intentionally, sure. But in a fit of depression, I do not buy it. If you had a suicidal impulse, there are dozens of things that would pop into your mind before that would, as someone said earlier for example, just shove the yoke forward hard. You'd have to contemplate to come up with this scenario - which is more than depression because it would be clear to you that you were going to murder hundreds of people.
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Why not? Shoving the yoke forward is going to be easily countered by the other pilot - They may not win, but they'll make it a struggle. Flipping the fuel switches off at that altitude isn't recoverable. Nothing to fight over. Just an easy flip and it's a done deal, no way to even second guess yourself like there is with many other methods. To me, that indicates that something like this is pretty easy to do impulsively, once you've decided that you think you want to end it.

And I'd say that anyone contemplating suicide isn't thinking about anybody but themselves. It brings a ton of lifelong hurt to the surviving friends and family that the person loves. I could see a suicidal person "thinking" this one up on the takeoff roll, to the extent that they're thinking at all.
 
The fact that one of the pilots asked the 'why did you do that?' question and the other answered 'I didn't' to me suggests one of two possibilities:

1. The pilot who flipped the switches did so deliberately (i.e., for murder/suicide reasons) and lied to make it seem accidental to the other pilot and to the flight recorders

2. The pilot who did so did so mindlessly (due to fatigue, drug use, mental illness via delusions, psychosis, etc) and honestly believed that he did not

Regardless of the reasons, I'm all in favor of hardware locks to prevent fuel shutoffs at takeoff. They could easily be linked to the landing gear such that cutoffs could not occur once the wheels left the ground until the wheels were retracted, or until 60 seconds afterward, etc. Nothing to do with altitude sensors directly, but with more basic elements of flight control...much as how in most cars, the rear camera is electronically linked to the transmission shifting to reverse.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
And I'd say that anyone contemplating suicide isn't thinking about anybody but themselves. It brings a ton of lifelong hurt to the surviving friends and family that the person loves. I could see a suicidal person "thinking" this one up on the takeoff roll, to the extent that they're thinking at all.
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Respectfully, that's just not true. For whatever reason, over the years I've had a lot of friends who have just generally been sad. More than one has said that the only reason they hang on is because they don't want to hurt, or let down, their friends and family. In my experience that's typical of depressed people. They suffer in pain every day, sometimes afraid of seeking help, but never wanting to hurt anyone. It's the mental equivalent of just hanging onto a ledge with their fingertips. At some point they just can't take it. If you've lost someone and you're mad at them, you've got to figure out a way to get out of that mindset. Similarly the one where you didn't see it coming and are upset you didn't do more to help.

The friend I remember most, back in the 90s, survived. She drove her car out to I think lock 7 on the Mohawk, so she could watch the river go by. She found that peaceful, pretty, and relaxing. She didn't want her family to find her first, and didn't want it to happen in their house. OD'd on a mix of illegal and legal pills. A local cop found her as he was driving by and saved her life. That was enough for her family to get more involved, take things seriously, and get her some treatment. With that and some luck, she's good now.
 
Piperonca said:
New Details in Air India Crash Probe Shift Focus to Senior Pilot
Black-box recording and report details indicate the flight’s captain switched off fuel flow to engines
(if a dialog box asks you to set up account, ignore it)

https://www.wsj.com/world/asia/air-...5?st=rjLQ8q&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
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If this turns out o be something akin to murder suicide ….. pretty horrifying to realize that this sort of act makes famous serial killers like Gacy or Bundy look pretty tame by comparison.
 
Warmi said:
If this turns out o be something akin to murder suicide ….. pretty horrifying to realize that this sort of act makes famous serial killers like Gacy or Bundy look pretty tame by comparison.
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More like Andreas Lubitz level.
 
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