We can say Pilot License after all

Let'sgoflying!

Let'sgoflying!

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Dave Taylor
The FAA does right here, for all you Terms hardliners!
"Replace an Airman Certificate (License)"

(the other, more important and possibly sadder lesson is that if enough people insist on changing the name of something, those actually in charge of such things will acquiesce!)
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
The FAA does right here, for all you Terms hardliners!
"Replace an Airman Certificate (License)"

(the other, more important and possibly sadder lesson is that if enough people insist on changing the name of something, those actually in charge of such things will acquiesce!)
Click to expand...

Yeah. They’ve been dumbing down their language for a while now. It’s all got to be understandable by a person with a seventh grade education.
 
Sundancer said:
Dumbing down???? The FAA has rarely strung two coherent sentences together in decades . . .I've spilled Scrabble tiles that formed more concise verbiage.
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Still trying to decipher the raw NOTAMs?
 
Not sure why anyone here cares. To most here the commercial certificate is a rating.

Just sayin
 
Kritchlow said:
Not sure why anyone here cares. To most here the commercial certificate is a rating.

Just sayin
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That's both funny and mostly true. Not sure about most, but a heck of a lot of folks here and elsewhere refer to the commercial, as well as the CFI certificates/licenses as a rating. They also refer to such things as complex and HP ratings, rather than endorsements.

Fortunately, referring to a "certificate" as a "license" means nothing. But 20+ years of online logging discussions tells me 80% of the confusion is due to not understanding what a "rating" and an "endorsement" (as opposed to a certificate or license) are.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
The FAA does right here, for all you Terms hardliners!
"Replace an Airman Certificate (License)"

(the other, more important and possibly sadder lesson is that if enough people insist on changing the name of something, those actually in charge of such things will acquiesce!)
Click to expand...

OK then, next time I will look forward to getting my 3rd class medical license.
 
Hank S said:
By the way, I'd prefer my own doctor to be comfortably past the "practicing" stage . . . .
Click to expand...

Every time I would complain to my doctor brother about the medical profession, he would say "let's face it, we are only practicing."

Hank S said:
Are 3rd class medical licenses only valid to practice medicine in 3rd world countries?
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My niece just graduated from Med school. She went on several mission trips as a student. She says at home they would watch over her when she did anything, on the mission trip the doctors would say go do surgery on this or that person and off she would go. She said it was the best training ever.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That's both funny and mostly true. Not sure about most, but a heck of a lot of folks here and elsewhere refer to the commercial, as well as the CFI certificates/licenses as a rating. They also refer to such things as complex and HP ratings, rather than endorsements.

Fortunately, referring to a "certificate" as a "license" means nothing. But 20+ years of online logging discussions tells me 80% of the confusion is due to not understanding what a "rating" and an "endorsement" (as opposed to a certificate or license) are.
Click to expand...

I have never understood where the confusion comes from. It really isn't hard.
For instance, I have 3 FAA certificates with a total of 6 ratings, 3 endorsements and an authorization.
* Private Pilot Certificate with ASEL, ASES and AMEL ratings.
* Mechanic Certificate with Airframe and Powerplant ratings. I also hold an Inspection Authorization.
* Remote Pilot Certificate with Small UAS rating.
My endorsements are for my PPC and are tailwheel, high power and complex. When I was a student pilot, I had a few solo endorsements.​

A simple way to remember it is if you have a piece of plastic issued by the FAA, you have a Certificate. The type of certificate is written on the front. The ratings are on the back of the certificate. Endorsements are in your logbook.

And, lest I forget I also have a medical certificate so I guess I really have 4 certificates but I don't look at it the same way. ​

What I do not have are any FAA licenses but I consider the term license to be synonymous with certificate in casual conversations with others, though I would not use the term in any professional correspondence.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I have never understood where the confusion comes from. It really isn't hard.
For instance, I have 3 FAA certificates with a total of 6 ratings, 3 endorsements and an authorization.
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Don't forget your flight review. That's an endorsement, too, right? ;)
 
SkyDog58 said:
I have never understood where the confusion comes from. It really isn't hard.
For instance, I have 3 FAA certificates with a total of 6 ratings, 3 endorsements and an authorization.
* Private Pilot Certificate with ASEL, ASES and AMEL ratings.
* Mechanic Certificate with Airframe and Powerplant ratings. I also hold an Inspection Authorization.
* Remote Pilot Certificate with Small UAS rating.
My endorsements are for my PPC and are tailwheel, high power and complex. When I was a student pilot, I had a few solo endorsements.​

A simple way to remember it is if you have a piece of plastic issued by the FAA, you have a Certificate. The type of certificate is written on the front. The ratings are on the back of the certificate. Endorsements are in your logbook.

And, lest I forget I also have a medical certificate so I guess I really have 4 certificates but I don't look at it the same way. ​

What I do not have are any FAA licenses but I consider the term license to be synonymous with certificate in casual conversations with others, though I would not use the term in any professional correspondence.
Click to expand...
What confusion?
 
SkyDog58 said:
Yeah. They’ve been dumbing down their language for a while now. It’s all got to be understandable by a person with a seventh grade education.
Click to expand...

Coincidentally, the average FAA worker happens to have a seventh grade education.


...or so I've been told.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I have never understood where the confusion comes from. It really isn't hard.
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Of course it isn't. The confusion is from us, not the rules.

But the only thing that differentiates a pilot "certificate" from a pilot "license" is the country of origin. Not completely sure, but I think the US may be the only "certificate" country.

Besides, do you really want to advise a newly minted pilot he has a "certificate to learn"?
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
btw....does a license grant privileges?....like a certificate?
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Of course it does. These are really close definitions. they are both nouns and verbs. One could well argue that a "certificate" is a document which "licenses" us to do certain things and a "license" is a document which shows we have been "certified" to have certain qualifications.
 
Everskyward said:
The other item in your wallet is labeled "Driver's License".
Click to expand...

Yes, I do understand why the layman would be very prone to use the term license rather than certificate due to the similarities of what they allow one to do which is to legally operate something. And as I wrote, I do consider the two terms to be fairly synonymous and I would not really fault a pilot for using the word license in casual conversation. I know that I often use it with non aviators.

The confusion that I was specifically referring to is the confusion that Mark noted he has consistently seen from pilots who confuse certificate, rating, and endorsement. They should know the difference and the difference is not difficult to grasp.
 
Anymouse said:
Coincidentally, the average FAA worker happens to have a seventh grade education.


...or so I've been told.
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Lol. Actually it is so the general public and the average airman (pilot and mechanic) can understand it. It’s the reason some regulations and guidance are now written in a FAQ format rather than strict regulatory language. Easier to read plain language is mandated by a law passed in 2010.
 
midlifeflyer said:
but I think the US may be the only "certificate" country.
Click to expand...
One of those useless FYIs: the story I recall from an ancient GADO boss was that back in the CAA days mechanics, pilots, and aircraft were "licensed." And some of the old documents stated "license." Then there was an accident and the next-of-kin attorney convinced the jury/judge that when a govt body licenses a person (like a doctor or engineer) the govt assumes direct oversight and responsibility of that person and their actions.

So after the US govt paid a substantial settlement various federal "licensing" procedures were changed to certification procedures where the govt simply authorizes privileges which leave the responsibility on the certified person and not the govt. That is also why there is an administrative procedure vs a board review when a certified person violates a rule or regulation and the FAA has the burden of proof. In addition, if I recall correctly, any "licensing" requirement the Feds couldn't convert to certification was transferred to the States.

As for the US being the only certificate country, it's possible. When I had my A&P convalidated in SA several times my new document always stated "License."
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
The FAA does right here, for all you Terms hardliners!
"Replace an Airman Certificate (License)"

(the other, more important and possibly sadder lesson is that if enough people insist on changing the name of something, those actually in charge of such things will acquiesce!)
Click to expand...

Might disappoint many on the thread, but the parenthetical 'license' on that webpage is there to catch folks who are looking for pilot licensing information. In addition to U.S. pilots who incorrectly use the term "pilot's license", there are also foreign pilots who legitimately hold a pilot's license from their home country and are trying to convert, or have a certificate issued based on it's existence.

But if it disappoints anyone, the FAA still very much considers the plastic card in your wallet a certificate, not a license. As for terminology used, I think it's been hashed out a million times previously so I won't revisit the issue.
 
SkyDog58 said:
A simple way to remember it is if you have a piece of plastic issued by the FAA, you have a Certificate. The type of certificate is written on the front. The ratings are on the back of the certificate. Endorsements are in your logbook.
Click to expand...


But that's not always true, and hence the confusion.

I have a Sport Pilot Certificate. On the back, it does NOT list "ratings." Instead, it very specifically says "SPORT ENDORSEMENT(S) AIRPLANCE SINGLE ENGINE LAND."

If I were to add on, say, ASES, it would be an endorsement, not a rating.
 
Bell206 said:
One of those useless FYIs: the story I recall from an ancient GADO boss was that back in the CAA days mechanics, pilots, and aircraft were "licensed." And some of the old documents stated "license." Then there was an accident and the next-of-kin attorney convinced the jury/judge that when a govt body licenses a person (like a doctor or engineer) the govt assumes direct oversight and responsibility of that person and their actions.
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That would be an interesting one to read. I've heard weirder things but it sounds like an OWT since, on that theory, we can sue a state government anytime there is a car accident, a bad haircut, or professional malpractice.

Have a reference?
 
Half Fast said:
But that's not always true, and hence the confusion.

I have a Sport Pilot Certificate. On the back, it does NOT list "ratings." Instead, it very specifically says "SPORT ENDORSEMENT(S) AIRPLANCE SINGLE ENGINE LAND."

If I were to add on, say, ASES, it would be an endorsement, not a rating.
Click to expand...
Yes, the sport certificate has no ratings, only endorsement of privileges. So you are correct about it not always being true.

But it's still easy. All one has to do is accept that words have meaning and understand their definitions. Besides, I doubt a certificate which did not exist until 2005 caused much of the confusion which existed long before that.
 
midlifeflyer said:
But it's still easy. All one has to do is accept that words have meaning and understand their definitions.
Click to expand...

Yes, but one word (endorsement) can have two meanings depending upon the type of certificate associated with it.

Here's another kicker: let's say a pilot has a private certificate and is rated for ASEL. He wants to fly seaplanes. With his PPC, he can choose to exercise only Sport privileges and get an endorsement for ASES instead of a rating as long as the seaplane is a light sport aircraft and LSAs are the only seaplanes he seeks to fly.

So two PPC holders can both be authorized to fly seaplanes, one with an ASES rating and one with an ASES endorsement (confined to LSAs).

Sport Pilot endorsements for additional aircraft merely require that one demonstrate competency to a different CFI than the one who performed the training; no ride with a DPE required. If a private pilot only desires to fly LSA seaplanes, like a Piper on floats, this might be a simpler path.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That would be an interesting one to read. I've heard weirder things
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midlifeflyer said:
Have a reference?
Click to expand...
No. I recall the GADO boss having his father's original pilot's license hanging on the wall which was issued by the Aero Club of America. That's what got the conversation going as we were over there to get our A&P test authorization cards. I seem to remember him stating the Aero Club was the only game in town until around '27 or '28 when the CAA was formed. Where true or not it made for an interesting conversation that I still remember to today. But I've also read somewhere a license violation requires a court setting and a certificate violation only requires an administrative setting. So that would be close.
 
Feel free to use them interchangeably. Everyone will know what you mean. A license is the intangible grant of permission. The certificate is the material record that you have been granted the license.
 
midlifeflyer said:
How about, "ratings" are issued by the FAA or a designated examiner. "Endorsements" can be issued by a CFI.
Click to expand...

Nope. The initial Sport Pilot cert must include an endorsement for the aircraft for the aircraft flown on the checkride, and that comes from a DPE or the FAA.
 
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