Want to take off differently, any advice?

Ozone

Ozone

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Aug 10, 2014
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Minnesota
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Ozone
MVFR, with NE winds, predicted for my airport (KSGS) on 4/8/24.

Usually, ATC sends us south since KSTP is 1-2 miles north of us.
I am not keen to make a tight ascending left turn into the clouds (and still in the pattern, since KMSP is just to the west) and I want to coordinate a more sedate right turn (with vectors), passing through the class D of KSTP before i fly on my way south to see the eclipse.

Is this an unreasonable request?
If it's not unreasonable, what's the best way to ask? North departure? Vectors through KSTP's airspace please?

Any ATC's from MSP who would like to chime in, I am happy to hear your thoughts.
 
Are you instrument rated? Why not just tell ATC what you want to do plain text?
 
Two questions…
1. what’s a “sedate” turn vs a “tight” turn?
2. What is the “MVFR” weather you’re working with?
 
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Just negotiate with them when you get your clearance. Ask for what you want and tell them why. They’ve always accommodated me when I needed it.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Two questions…
1. what’s a “sedate” turn vs a “tight” turn?
2. What is the “MVFR” weather you’re working with?
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due to the space constraints around SGS, one usually has to make a tight, left, 180 degree turn coming off of runway 34 to head south. It's not too extreme of a 180, but the MVFR/IFR prediction is currently 600-1100 for clouds. I am IFR current, but i dont have a ton of IFR actual experience, so going runway heading and then making a right turn through the airspace of KSTP seemed to be a little less intimidating for me.
 
Ozone said:
due to the space constraints around SGS, one usually has to make a tight, left, 180 degree turn coming off of runway 34 to head south. It's not too extreme of a 180, but the MVFR/IFR prediction is currently 600-1100 for clouds. I am IFR current, but i dont have a ton of IFR actual experience, so going runway heading and then making a right turn through the airspace of KSTP seemed to be a little less intimidating for me.
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If they’re giving you a turn, they can’t expect that it will be tighter than normal.
 
just a standard Takeoff minimums departure, no SID/DP. I've been told by ATC to stay out of the MSP core, even on IFR, due to the big boys being a few hundred feet above our pattern, especially if they are coming in to 30L or 30R.

Mostly, this is about me being a bit nervous about making a climbing 180 turn as opposed to runway heading, when the clouds are low. I know i've trained for it, and practiced it. It's just a bit toward the edge of my comfort zone and I was wondering if there's a way to go runway heading so I have time to get things sorted before joining my main IFR route. Clearance can only intermittently hear us when we are on the field, and sometimes that means we depart VFR (which wouldn't work on monday)
 
Ozone said:
Clearance can only intermittently hear us when we are on the field,
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Make sure you know that you’re using the comm that goes to the antenna on top of the airplane rather than the bottom.

I used to know where the good spot to talk to Clearance was, but it’s been too long.
 
Call clearance on the phone, listed in the info section in Foreflight. Works every time, many airports have this, including yours. Negotiate if you need to. 612-726-9086, talk to them like on the radio.
 
Ozone said:
Clearance can only intermittently hear us when we are on the field, and sometimes that means we depart VFR (which wouldn't work on monday)
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If their comm is intermittent on the ground, why don't you just call them on the phone to get your clearance instead?

You shouldn't be worrying about airspace when you're IFR. What exactly are the words in the clearance? Something like "enter controlled airspace heading 180"? Then you climb to 400 AGL and make a nice, relaxed, standard rate turn to 180. If you enter STP's Delta, that's not your problem, you're complying with your clearance.
 
I’m confused. You are IFR rated and current, willing to make a climbing right turn in the clouds but don’t trust your skills to make a climbing left turn..??
 
Kritchlow said:
I’m confused. You are IFR rated and current, willing to make a climbing right turn in the clouds but don’t trust your skills to make a climbing left turn..??
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it's the 180 in the clouds. I once got badly disoriented doing this, and perhaps i have a little anxiety as a result. For some reason 90 degrees, no problem.
 
Ozone said:
due to the space constraints around SGS, one usually has to make a tight, left, 180 degree turn coming off of runway 34 to head south. It's not too extreme of a 180, but the MVFR/IFR prediction is currently 600-1100 for clouds. I am IFR current, but i dont have a ton of IFR actual experience, so going runway heading and then making a right turn through the airspace of KSTP seemed to be a little less intimidating for me.
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If you are worried now, on the ground, at ground speed zero about what direction turn you’re able and willing to make departing into marginal vfr, you’ve got no business flying in actual instrument conditions.

What will you do when weather and traffic and ATC airspace requirements force you to attempt this or some other maneuver that you simply don’t feel comfortable with, whether on takeoff or in some other critical phase of flight?

This is not MFS. There is no pause button.

You’ve neither the currency nor the recency to file and fly in actual weather. Experience tells us what we can do in our airplanes, and when we can do it. Judgement tells us whether or not we should try.

Look hard in a mirror. This is how accidents happen.

Take an instructor along. Wait for the weather to clear. Drive.

But don’t fly in weather that scares you while you’re still on the ground.
 
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Any clearance out of South St Paul is likely take it or leave it. Depending on MSP operations they have hold departures. At least that was what I was told last time I tried picking up my clearance on the ground.

What about going VFR to St Paul and full stop taxi back and pick up an IFR there on the ground.
 
Not to be overly harsh, but a 180 in the clouds is a necessary VFR skill IMO. You should resolve this before flying anywhere near a cloud.
 
Leaving aside the aforementioned concerns regarding comfort level with performing the 180 turn low level on takeoff (not dissimilar with a missed approach procedure which is known to be a higher risk phase of flight), as other have stated you can request what you want. Just tell them your departing runway is xxx.
 
Ozone said:
I once got badly disoriented doing this, and perhaps i have a little anxiety as a result.
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You flying that Cub in your avatar? Just tip the wings 10° and wait for at least a full minute. It's when you get in a hurry that bad things happen.
 
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Ozone said:
it's the 180 in the clouds. I once got badly disoriented doing this, and perhaps i have a little anxiety as a result. For some reason 90 degrees, no problem.
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No flame intended - If I had problems with a normal 180°standard rate turn on instruments, I would be calling a CFII to get some serious practice. It's way too common a maneuver to avoid all the time.
 
I'm glad you are getting some useful responses, because when I read the thread title all I could come up with was 'maybe try it from a treadmill.'
 
Ozone said:
it's the 180 in the clouds. I once got badly disoriented doing this, and perhaps i have a little anxiety as a result. For some reason 90 degrees, no problem.
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I’m sorry, but if you can’t do a 180 in the clouds you should not be instrument rated.
Please get with an instructor to correct this, or surrender your ir.

Not trying to be harsh, but this is pretty basic stuff.
Don’t want to see you as a statistic if ATC gives you a large heading change.
 
Well, there were 8 departures out of SGS today and I haven't seen Juan post a video yet...did OP go? If so, what was the result?
 
Kritchlow said:
I’m sorry, but if you can’t do a 180 in the clouds you should not be instrument rated.
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I’m wondering how one maintains instrument currency without them since holding procedures (some of which require more than 180 degrees) in the prior 6 months is a currency requirement.

“Should not be rated” is a little harsh, but I guess less so than loss of control during a standard maneuver.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I’m wondering how one maintains instrument currency without them since holding procedures (some of which require more than 180 degrees) in the prior 6 months is a currency requirement.

“Should not be rated” is a little harsh, but I guess less so than loss of control during a standard maneuver.
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I agree with you, but could see how someone who is technically current but used foggles to do so for years might not be proficient in actual imc. As you well know, some of the view-limiting devices in use really aren't very limiting.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I’m wondering how one maintains instrument currency without them since holding procedures (some of which require more than 180 degrees) in the prior 6 months is a currency requirement.

“Should not be rated” is a little harsh, but I guess less so than loss of control during a standard maneuver.
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I got the impression that the issue was more about the transition to IMC with a perceived need to maneuver abnormally.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I got the impression that the issue was more about the transition to IMC with a perceived need to maneuver abnormally.
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Either way, the point remains - it is a standard part of instrument flight and if it's a problem it needs to be fixed before someone gets hurt.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Either way, the point remains - it is a standard part of instrument flight and if it's a problem it needs to be fixed before someone gets hurt.
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Except that the reason it’s a standard part of instrument flight is that the expectation is NOT a nonstandard turn, as the OP supposes.
 
MauleSkinner said:
My impression of the OP’s problem is that he thought ATC expected a steep turn to avoid KMSP airspace rather than a standard turn. That is not ATC’s expectation.
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Gotcha! I had to scroll back. I missed this earlier.
Ozone said:
due to the space constraints around SGS, one usually has to make a tight, left, 180 degree turn coming off of runway 34 to head south. It's not too extreme of a 180, but the MVFR/IFR prediction is currently 600-1100 for clouds. I am IFR current, but i dont have a ton of IFR actual experience, so going runway heading and then making a right turn through the airspace of KSTP seemed to be a little less intimidating for me.
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Yep, it sounds like @Ozone is thinking that he is required (or expected) to avoid the STP Delta and the MSP surface area. That's the nice thing about IFR that some pilots seem to miss - so long as you fly your clearance and instructions, airspace is invisible. Coordinating SGS departures with MSP and STP IFR traffic is TRACON's problem and the reason one might have to "hold for release."

The left turn apparently works for ATC. Looking at the chart, I can guess why. A right turn can't really avoid creating a separation problem with STP's approach corridor. I'm guessing the initial assigned altitude for the left turn is low enough to not affect MSP arrivals. (I wonder what LiveATC would show).

The most I would expect ATC to expect from me with an instruction to "on departure, turn left heading 160" is that I begin the standard rate turn at 400-500 AGL, although even waiting until higher should not be a big deal in a light piston single.
 
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Well POA can be a harsh place to get advice. I think, however, that I would agree that if you haven’t done the IMC transition into clouds and you’re worried about it..that should end the discussion for you. It’s okay to be cautious and it’s okay to know your limits. It’s not a great idea to “test the waters” and see how you do - since the risk of disorientation. Is real and so is a likely fatal accident. Ideally you should have a decent autopilot to fly IMC. Single pilot IFR isn’t easy and if you have doubts, trust those doubts, and don’t push this. Do it when you’re confident. “Hope” is not a good co-Pilot.


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I agree with what others are saying. Under no circumstance should you be making a tight climbing turn in IMC. Standard rate and start the turn once well established in climb at ~500 feet. One of the most disorienting things is the entry into IMC and this can be even more so if you are in a climbing turn. Once you are safely established in climb, get on the instruments and don't worry about what is happening outside. If you are not comfortable, find a willing instructor on a good IMC day and do this a few times. Also if it is very marginal, don't take off VFR. Trying to sort out the clearance in the air adds too much workload. I have done that before and very much regretted it.
 
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