The FAA changed the definition of Upwind

[Brad W]

Here's how to get 100% agreement and compliance: Ban all entries except the Overhead Break. Everybody can head for the Initial point from any direction. Everybody will be happy and a side benefit will be less congestion due to all the mid-airs.

View attachment 144023

how would it look if we instead adopted the pattern the navy uses at the carriers but instead for GA VFR airports?
My understanding is that it's a stacked holding pattern of sorts and at the bottom it's this overhead break....
That works without radio communications, right?
I mean if we were to adopt it, how would we know which altitude to enter the stack? How do you Navy pilots know your entry altitude?

 

[Lindberg]

Just adjust your break point to fit into the flow of traffic on downwind.

I thought that was impossible.

 

[M20K]

The whole thing about crossing the runway at midfield, whether to do a teardrop to a 45 or turn left into the downwind, seems unwise. I know that's what they give but once you're over the runway if crossing at 1500' (where the bigger birds live) then if turning left you are descending into the downwind. If at pattern altitude and there is traffic either coming at you from the 45º entry or 90º in the downwind where is your escape route?

You don't quite have the Pattern Entries down and should never be in that situation.

Overhead Teardrop: You cross perpendicutal to the Runway 500 FEET ABOVE ALL TRAFFIC PATTERN ALTITUDES (poss. 2,000ft above the Rwy), so there's no conflict here. Then "...When well clear of the pattern—approximately 2 miles—the pilot should scan carefully for traffic, descend to pattern altitude, then turn right (the teardrop part) to enter at 45° to the downwind leg at midfield." So still no conflict and basically what everyone should already doing, scannig for traffic as you manuver for that point where you're "on the 45" and basically set to enter the Downwind.

Overhead Turn Downwind: "...An alternate method is to enter on a midfield crosswind at pattern altitude, carefully scan for traffic, announce intentions, and then turn downwind. [Figure 8-3B] This technique should not be used if the pattern is busy." So basically ONLY when there is no one actally anywhere around you. You would join the Downwind since you're the only one there, you should never turn to squeeze into the Downwind.

For those unclear on Non-Towered procedures, maybe a quick refresher with Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3C) and/or AC 90-66C - Non-Towered Airport Flight Operations would help.

 

[M20K]

Here's how to get 100% agreement and compliance: Ban all entries except the Overhead Break.

Interesting diagram. I was taught it was more of a 360 back to the threshold and you sure don't break at the departure end of the runway. The diagram you have makes it look like you basically fly to the end of the runway, just turn around and fly a Downwind and then just round off the corners of the turns to Base and Final.

 

[Daleandee]

You don't quite have the Pattern Entries down and should never be in that situation.

Overhead Teardrop: You cross perpendicutal to the Runway 500 FEET ABOVE ALL TRAFFIC PATTERN ALTITUDES (poss. 2,000ft above the Rwy), so there's no conflict here. Then "...When well clear of the pattern—approximately 2 miles—the pilot should scan carefully for traffic, descend to pattern altitude, then turn right (the teardrop part) to enter at 45° to the downwind leg at midfield." So still no conflict and basically what everyone should already doing, scannig for traffic as you manuver for that point where you're "on the 45" and basically set to enter the Downwind.

Overhead Turn Downwind: "...An alternate method is to enter on a midfield crosswind at pattern altitude, carefully scan for traffic, announce intentions, and then turn downwind. [Figure 8-3B] This technique should not be used if the pattern is busy." So basically ONLY when there is no one actally anywhere around you. You would join the Downwind since you're the only one there, you should never turn to squeeze into the Downwind.

For those unclear on Non-Towered procedures, maybe a quick refresher with Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3C) and/or AC 90-66C - Non-Towered Airport Flight Operations would help.

I'm well aware of how it works ... but turning into oncoming traffic coming from a 45 or 90 gives little to no options of where to go. If crossing midfield at 1500' (where bigger/faster planes abide) for a teardrop entry then, as others have noted, you are putting your back to a busy pattern (it must be busy or you'd do a left to downwind at pattern altitude) and your situational awareness just went out the window.

You might not hear or see traffic until over the runway and then you are head on at oncoming traffic. Ed suggested to turn right but that is heading upwind on down wind. FWIW ... I know & follow the rules as written but I agree with others that better/safer entries appear to be available.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Ed suggested to turn right but that is heading upwind on down wind.

I did not. I suggested adjusting your heading and speed so that you arrive at the downwind before or after the conflicting traffic. Same as you would do on a 45 from the other side.

 

[Daleandee]

I did not. I suggested adjusting your heading and speed so that you arrive at the downwind before or after the conflicting traffic. Same as you would do on a 45 from the other side.

"Slow down and angle right to pull in behind them." Post # 182

 

[Ed Haywood]

"Slow down and angle right to pull in behind them." Post # 182

Poorly phrased.

 

[Daleandee]

Poorly phrased.

I get it ... my apologies if I'm pressing a point too much. But I do believe that converging over the field from three different directions could have a better solution.

 

[Ed Haywood]

my apologies if I'm pressing a point too much.

I only take things personally if someone chooses to personalize it.

 

[M20K]

I'm well aware of how it works ... but turning into oncoming traffic coming from a 45 or 90 gives little to no options of where to go. If crossing midfield at 1500' (where bigger/faster planes abide) for a teardrop entry then,

Ummm..... Sorry, but you obviously do no know how it works based on your quote. And you obviously didn't read what I wrote, specifically saying 500ft above ALL TPAs and even specifically calling out 2,000ft. If you cross midfield at a Non Towered Airport with a 5,000ft runway at 1,500ft AGL, then yes, that could be a very dangerous move. But there's nothing wrong with the procedure, you put yourself in that situation by not following the procedure and making a non standard and non recommended entry.

If you are doing it CORRECTLY at an airport that may have larger aircraft in a 1500ft AGL Pattern, YOU SHOULD BE AT 2,000FT (per the recommended procedure). After flying over the entire pattern you would THEN start to descend and then start your turn back around to enter on the 45. It's a pretty straight forward procedure with no more risk than intentionally flying aournd an airport to maneuver to enter the 45 before there was much talk of doing an Overhead. But you do need to do it safely and can't cut corners. (There's a video out there with ADS-B tracking show the idot crossing the runway, turning and backtracking out the way people are flying in on the 45. That is NOT a Teardrop.)

Take a look at the Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3C) and/or AC 90-66C - Non-Towered Airport Flight Operations and maybe have a discussion with a CFI.

 

[Daleandee]

Ummm..... Sorry, but you obviously do no know how it works based on your quote.

Well ... no reason to continue a conversation with someone that has no RIF skills so, I'm done.

 

[Lindberg]

Wait, so whatever pattern entry I choose, I have to keep my eyes open, be situationally aware, and deconflict with other traffic?

 

[MauleSkinner]

If you are doing it CORRECTLY at an airport that may have larger aircraft in a 1500ft AGL Pattern, YOU SHOULD BE AT 2,000FT

Just to pick a nit…where does it say that pattern for larger aircraft is AT 1500 ft?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Just to pick a nit…where does it say that pattern for larger aircraft is AT 1500 ft?

AIM 4-3-3 and AC90-66C are two sources.

 

[luvflyin]

Well ... no reason to continue a conversation with someone that has no RIF skills so, I'm done.

RIF ??

 

[M20K]

Just to pick a nit…where does it say that pattern for larger aircraft is AT 1500 ft?

Gotta love it. The AIM 4-3-3 states:
1. Propeller−driven aircraft enter the traffic pattern at 1,000 feet above ground level (AGL).
2. Large and turbine−powered aircraft enter the traffic pattern at an altitude of not less than 1,500 feet AGL or 500 feet above the established pattern altitude.

So to your point, the majority of all the aircraft out there, per the AIM should be AT 1,000ft or 1,500ft AGL. But I do see your point and I probably should have said something like normally or typically to include those VERY VERY few outliers.

As for "at" or "normally" making any difference in the correct way to fly the Cross Over entry, sorry, no points. It's a pOtato vs pAHtato kind of thing. Here's the whole section were it wouldn't shock me if the printer took out the original "at" for formating. But everything I have is digital, I havn't purchased a printed book in decades. So I can't look at the page to see if it has all neat and crisp formating on the page. Below is the paragraph again, let me know if the [at] would be added if it were not there or crossed out if it were by a grade school English teacher...

Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3C)
Chapter 8: Airport Traffic Patterns
Non-Towered Airports

There are several ways to enter the pattern if the arrival occurs on the upwind leg side of the airport. One method of entry from the opposite side of the pattern is to announce intentions and cross over midfield at least 500 feet above pattern altitude (normally 1,500 feet AGL). However, if large or turbine aircraft operate at the airport, it is best to remain [at] 2,000 feet AGL so as not to conflict with their traffic pattern. When well clear of the pattern—approximately 2 miles—the pilot should scan carefully for traffic, descend to pattern altitude, then turn right to enter at 45° to the downwind leg at midfield. [Figure 8-3A] An alternate method is to enter on a midfield crosswind at pattern altitude, carefully scan for traffic, announce intentions, and then turn downwind. [Figure 8-3B] This technique should not be used if the pattern is busy.

 

[Lindberg]

Large and turbine−powered aircraft enter the traffic pattern at an altitude of not less than 1,500 feet AGL or 500 feet above the established pattern altitude.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Oooo, a math problem!

Is it:

an altitude of not less than (1,500 feet AGL or 500 feet above the established pattern altitude)

Or:

an altitude of (not less than 1,500 feet AGL) or (500 feet above the established pattern altitude)

 

[MauleSkinner]

Gotta love it. The AIM 4-3-3 states:
1. Propeller−driven aircraft enter the traffic pattern at 1,000 feet above ground level (AGL).
2. Large and turbine−powered aircraft enter the traffic pattern at an altitude of not less than 1,500 feet AGL or 500 feet above the established pattern altitude.

So to your point, the majority of all the aircraft out there, per the AIM should be AT 1,000ft or 1,500ft AGL. But I do see your point and I probably should have said something like normally or typically to include those VERY VERY few outliers.

Just giving you grief because I used to fly with one of those outliers …he was known to fly downwind 5000 feet above the field, which necessitated a base turn about 10 miles out.

 

[M20K]

Just giving you grief because I used to fly with one of those outliers …he was known to fly downwind 5000 feet above the field, which necessitated a base turn about 10 miles out.

I'm not following, at a GA Non Towered Airport? Which is what we're talking about. So where is this unique airport with a 5,000ft AGL Downwind if that's what you're refering to?

Or are you just talking about some idiot you knew that liked to come in high and do some Overhead maneuver on steroids or something like that. Test aircraft or miltary aircraft going into some strip of sand on some test flight also don't fit the bill.

 

[Lindberg]

Oooo, a math problem!

Is it:

an altitude of not less than (1,500 feet AGL or 500 feet above the established pattern altitude)

Or:

an altitude of (not less than 1,500 feet AGL) or (500 feet above the established pattern altitude)

It's not a question of math but of grammar. And taking either of your interpretations, the pattern could be above 1500' AGL.

 

[Ed Haywood]

It's not a question of math but of grammar.

 

[Lindberg]

View attachment 144078

It's not pedantry; you may have missed the point though. The assertion was made that it's safe to cross midfield at 2000' AGL because you will be 500' above all aircraft in the pattern, including large and turbine aircraft that will be AT 1500' AGL. @MauleSkinner asked where it says that pattern is flown AT 1500' AGL. The correct answer is probably nowhere sure it say that, but it's not AIM 4-3-3, which says that pattern should be flown at not less than 1500' AGL.

 

[Ed Haywood]

It's not pedantry; you may have missed the point though.

I edited my post to clarify.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I'm not following, at a GA Non Towered Airport? Which is what we're talking about. So where is this unique airport with a 5,000ft AGL Downwind if that's what you're refering to?

Or are you just talking about some idiot you knew that liked to come in high and do some Overhead maneuver on steroids or something like that. Test aircraft or miltary aircraft going into some strip of sand on some test flight also don't fit the bill.

It was an idiot (more of a ****ing *******, actually) I used to fly with who worked at a very rote level. “Pattern altitude is AT LEAST 1500 feet,” hence 5000 AGL until turning final.

“There’s freezing rain at the surface, that means it’s warmer aloft,” so we descended (pilot’s discretion) into the clouds at 6000 feet with anti-ice all off, and picked up more ice than I’ve ever seen on a jet before or since.

And my personal favorite, he pointed out the windshield at a thunderstorm cell and said, “Tell Center we don’t want to go there,” to which I responded, “which way do you want to go?” “WELL, I DON’T WANT TO GO THERE!”

OK, I lied. My personal favorite was when he wouldn’t admit that the VLF Omega had lost its position when we were more than 5 miles abeam the VOR it said we were over, and getting worse. Dead reckoned for two hours until I picked up the VOR at the beginning of the arrival. I made that trip with him under duress to start with, but the Chief Pilot didn’t want the Feds to know that there was discord in the flight department, apparently. Never flew with him again.

 

[dtuuri]

Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3C)
Chapter 8: Airport Traffic Patterns
Non-Towered Airports

There are several ways to enter the pattern if the arrival occurs on the upwind leg side of the airport. One method of entry from the opposite side of the pattern is to announce intentions and cross over midfield at least 500 feet above pattern altitude (normally 1,500 feet AGL). However, if large or turbine aircraft operate at the airport, it is best to remain [at] 2,000 feet AGL so as not to conflict with their traffic pattern. When well clear of the pattern—approximately 2 miles—the pilot should scan carefully for traffic, descend to pattern altitude, then turn right to enter at 45° to the downwind leg at midfield. [Figure 8-3A] An alternate method is to enter on a midfield crosswind at pattern altitude, carefully scan for traffic, announce intentions, and then turn downwind. [Figure 8-3B] This technique should not be used if the pattern is busy.

Hey, @FAA.gov. As one who flew a turbine aircraft into small airports ALL THE TIME, making 1500' AGL patterns, I don't want any corn poppers putzin' around 500 feet over top of me. First, I'd have to descend through their altitude to get to my 1500' AGL, then they'd have to descend through my altitude to get to their 1000' AGL. And we all know they don't go the specified 2 1/2 miles from the runway according to the book before they start dropping down. Please fix this. They should be at TPA five miles from the airport and at pattern speed, as should the turbines, imo.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I know you made the suggestion somewhat TIC, but IMO that is actually the best entry when arriving on upwind direction. Just adjust your break point to fit into the flow of traffic on downwind. The only difference between that and the "upwind arrival" advocated by others is turning break before you reach crosswind.

So what you're saying is something like:

As for the Upwind pattern, I really can't believe you've thought this through, or possibly the non towered airports you fly out of are a lot sleepier than the ones I have. Take BID on a busy weekend. One on short final, one of final, one turning base, a couple in the downwind and a couple on the 45 or reported X miles out going to enter on the 45. Then there's the helicopter or helicopters that are *correctly* flying the opposite side of the fixed wing downwind or are descending towards the airport. Here you come along and are headed for the Upwind...

So are you going to turn Crosswind and cut off all those other planes that are established in the "standard" 45 entry?

Nope. I'm gonna wait for a hole and take it.

Hmmm. Maybe we're not thinking so differently as you would think based on the rest of the thread...

Overhead Teardrop: You cross perpendicutal to the Runway 500 FEET ABOVE ALL TRAFFIC PATTERN ALTITUDES (poss. 2,000ft above the Rwy), so there's no conflict here.

No conflict except for all of the other people arriving at the same time and doing the same thing.

The pattern isn't a magic no-midair zone, in fact if anything it's the opposite. Everyone's job is to see and avoid conflicts, and work together so everyone lands safely. It is NOT to be the pattern police and say that everyone should do a 45 to the downwind every time and that everyone else is WRONG or unsafe. There are plenty of ways to enter the pattern safely, and I hope this thread has shown some people where the potential conflict hot spots are in the pattern.

FWIW, my primary flight instructor always had me lift the wing (Cessna) to check for traffic coming straight onto the downwind, and also on base to check for straight in traffic on final. The real lesson was "keep your eyes open and always expect anyone to be coming from anywhere."

 

[M20K]

No conflict except for all of the other people arriving at the same time and doing the same thing.

This is true at any Towered or Non Towered airport... At the Towered airport I used to fly out of there was a midair with someone on final from the exteneded downwind and a guy that said he had the traffic is site and turned base early.

As for the specific comment of mine you quoted. I think it was in response to a specific comment that you exposed yourself to a Head-On collisions if you do the Cross Over to a Teardrop entry into the pattern. I don't see the Overhead entry as being a higher risk than any other entry if done properly. But to your point, everyone is heading for that strip of airspace called the Downwind. So it is a converging point that needs to be respected and one needs to keep their eyes and ears open for traffic that can be coming from different directions and not just drone on in oblivious to eveyone else. And if eveyone sticks to the (current) standard patern entries, then scanning those areas more frequently can cut down on potential midairs.