Suicide by pilot

brien23

brien23

Pattern Altitude
Joined
May 31, 2005
Messages
1,624
Location
Oak Harbor
Display Name
Brien
Home Airfield
76S
It's not if it's when, somehow the fuel cutoff switch shut off the fuel on Air india 787 Crash, if this turns out to be another Suicide by pilot deliberately crashed or attempted to crash an aircraft as a suicide act people are going to except autonomous aircraft over suicidal pilots. "Both Airbus and Boeing are actively researching and developing autonomous aircraft technologies. While Airbus is focusing on incorporating autonomous features into larger commercial aircraft and exploring the potential of autonomous air taxis, Boeing is also involved in autonomous systems for various applications". If you are one of those who would never get on a autonomous aircraft Greyhound Bus will still be around, not sure about Amtrack.
 
There is also something to be said for a crew that has “skin in the game”. I’m not sure how “accepted” autonomous operations will be.
 
RyanB said:
Doctor gloom at it again, the reality is, most people will not prefer autonomous aircraft over human piloted. Statistically, events like these are still exceedingly rare.
Click to expand...
How many does it take."A report by French investigators into the Germanwings plane crash in the French Alps in March says co-pilot Andreas Lubitz may have practised for a rapid descent on a previous flight. It also highlights six other accidents since 1980 that were possibly "caused by intentional manoeuvres by one of the flight crew members". "Insurancejournal.com Jun 15, 2022 · Surveys of airline pilots have shown that about 4% to 8% have contemplated suicide."

1) Namibia, 29 November 2013, 33 died​

2) North Atlantic Ocean, 31 October 1999, 217 died​

3) Botswana, 11 January 1999, one died​

4) Indonesia, 19 December 1997, 104 died​

5) Morocco, 21 August 1994, 44 died​

6) Japan, 9 February 1982, 24 died​

 
Last edited:
brien23 said:
How many does it take."A report by French investigators into the Germanwings plane crash in the French Alps in March says co-pilot Andreas Lubitz may have practised for a rapid descent on a previous flight. It also highlights six other accidents since 1980 that were possibly "caused by intentional manoeuvres by one of the flight crew members".

1) Namibia, 29 November 2013, 33 died​

2) North Atlantic Ocean, 31 October 1999, 217 died​

3) Botswana, 11 January 1999, one died​

4) Indonesia, 19 December 1997, 104 died​

5) Morocco, 21 August 1994, 44 died​

6) Japan, 9 February 1982, 24 died​

Click to expand...
Add in Air Malaysia.

But I'm not pro-autonomous aircraft. I'm all for having a pilot up front. The question is how do we (or can we) screen for suicidal folks? Do you ground everyone going through a divorce, everyone who lost a bunch in the stock market, everyone who had a friend, relative, or pet die? I have no idea... And then we need to figure out how to do that without career-effing or financially effing people who come forward with a problem. Tough assignment.
 
RyanB said:
Doctor gloom at it again, the reality is, most people will not prefer autonomous aircraft over human piloted. Statistically, events like these are still exceedingly rare.
Click to expand...
Once it's being used, I give it less that 10 years to complete acceptability. Probably closer to 3-5.
 
kyleb said:
Add in Air Malaysia.

But I'm not pro-autonomous aircraft. I'm all for having a pilot up front. The question is how do we (or can we) screen for suicidal folks? Do you ground everyone going through a divorce, everyone who lost a bunch in the stock market, everyone who had a friend, relative, or pet die? I have no idea... And then we need to figure out how to do that without career-effing or financially effing people who come forward with a problem. Tough assignment.
Click to expand...
Also the 4 on 911 pilots that crashed jets, airliners.
 
brien23 said:
Also the 4 on 9/11 pilots that crashed jets.
Click to expand...
I recall that after 9/11, there was a suggestion that airliners be controlled from the ground.

The same argument against it is valid for the autonomous-pilot model: If an adversary manages to hack the code, the outcome will be horrendous. Slip the same worm into the entire fleet, and trigger them simultaneously. So it's not one or two planes crashing at the same time, but every Airbus 320 or Boeing 777 aloft.

*If* the problem of pilot suicide is so severe that action is required, there's only one solution: Add a third pilot to the cockpit to monitor the other two. This, of course, will be soundly opposed by the airlines (increased costs) and there's no way to force foreign carriers to comply on routes that don't touch the US.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
I recall that after 9/11, there was a suggestion that airliners be controlled from the ground.

The same argument against it is valid for the autonomous-pilot model: If an adversary manages to hack the code, the outcome will be horrendous.
Click to expand...
I've always thought one of the ultimate hacks would be to turn all the traffic signals to green...
 
kyleb said:
Add in Air Malaysia.

But I'm not pro-autonomous aircraft. I'm all for having a pilot up front. The question is how do we (or can we) screen for suicidal folks? Do you ground everyone going through a divorce, everyone who lost a bunch in the stock market, everyone who had a friend, relative, or pet die? I have no idea... And then we need to figure out how to do that without career-effing or financially effing people who come forward with a problem. Tough assignment.
Click to expand...

Seems like if someone wants to conceal being suicidal it would be nearly impossible to find out with any kind of screening/testing. What some people are coming around to is a change in culture around mental health. For a long time we've effectively had a system that encouraged pilots to conceal any issues they're having, it might be time to encourage pilots to get help before they become suicidal.
 
brien23 said:
How many does it take."A report by French investigators into the Germanwings plane crash in the French Alps in March says co-pilot Andreas Lubitz may have practised for a rapid descent on a previous flight. It also highlights six other accidents since 1980 that were possibly "caused by intentional manoeuvres by one of the flight crew members". "Insurancejournal.com Jun 15, 2022 · Surveys of airline pilots have shown that about 4% to 8% have contemplated suicide."

1) Namibia, 29 November 2013, 33 died​

2) North Atlantic Ocean, 31 October 1999, 217 died​

3) Botswana, 11 January 1999, one died​

4) Indonesia, 19 December 1997, 104 died​

5) Morocco, 21 August 1994, 44 died​

6) Japan, 9 February 1982, 24 died​

Click to expand...
7 (8?) possible cases that we might suspect in the last 3/4 century (and an untold number of commercial aircraft evolutions). Up until around the early 60s most boys were taught to "never let 'em see you cry". You handled your stuff like a man. Then all of a sudden were supposed to get in touch with our feminine sides. Toxic Masculinity became a thing. And between that new attitude, the "latch-key" generation and a whole new paradigm in mental health thinking, the emotional development of boys just kinda got forgotten about. They were left to figure it out for themselves.

I'll probably get "moderated" for this post. But, the bent of the whole thread was going this way anyway so let the ban hammer fall.

I think we should work on making more mentally stable humans instead of relying on AI to solve the problem.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
Perfect argument to make GA more affordable and accessible. Nobody will need airlines if we can just fly ourselves wherever we wanna go.
Click to expand...
I know you’re probably being facetious but if not, give up on commercial flying which is the safest form of transport we engage in for one that is ~20x riskier than driving a car?
 
wilkersk said:
7 (8?) possible cases that we might suspect in the last 3/4 century (and an untold number of commercial aircraft evolutions). Up until around the early 60s most boys were taught to "never let 'em see you cry". You handled your stuff like a man. Then all of a sudden were supposed to get in touch with our feminine sides. Toxic Masculinity became a thing. And between that new attitude, the "latch-key" generation and a whole new paradigm in mental health thinking, the emotional development of boys just kinda got forgotten about. They were left to figure it out for themselves.

I'll probably get "moderated" for this post. But, the bent of the whole thread was going this way anyway so let the ban hammer fall.

I think we should work on making more mentally stable humans instead of relying on AI to solve the problem.
Click to expand...

I think that probably plays into it all. There's certainly got to be a happy medium between bottling everything up and blubbering about every little difficulty in life.

One big thing I don't think a lot of people realize is that mental health doesn't necessarily mean seeing a professional. It used to be a lot more common for men to have places to hang out together outside of work, have groups of close friends, etc. I know for me talking about feelings doesn't make me feel better about anything. Things like a night sitting around drinking with friends, outdoor activities, flying to fun places, etc usually leave me in a better place mentally. It's difficult though, most of my adult male friends have families and work schedules that make getting together hard. I'm not entirely sure how we fix that but it seems to me like it fits into the overall problem.
 
kyleb said:
Add in Air Malaysia.

And then we need to figure out how to do that without career-effing or financially effing people who come forward with a problem. Tough assignment.
Click to expand...

I've brought the answer to that question on here before, the answer has always seemed ez bake oven to me: Loss of medical payout. Done.

Yes, I'm an economic/class reductionist: I wholeheartedly believe this has nothing to do with lameting not being able to "fly" airliners. This increase in suicide potential is 100% about lack of lateral income portability compared to lateral portable blue/white collars, even if the latter are sometimes lower earning.
 
cowman said:
... One big thing I don't think a lot of people realize is that mental health doesn't necessarily mean seeing a professional. It used to be a lot more common for men to have places to hang out together outside of work, have groups of close friends, etc. I know for me talking about feelings doesn't make me feel better about anything. Things like a night sitting around drinking with friends, outdoor activities, flying to fun places, etc usually leave me in a better place mentally. It's difficult though, most of my adult male friends have families and work schedules that make getting together hard. I'm not entirely sure how we fix that but it seems to me like it fits into the overall problem.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Friends and family have helped me through tough times over the years, and more generally make life more interesting and fun. My daughter is in her 20s and even though she lives thousands of miles away from us, she still meets up with local friends & family in person in environments where they can relax, have fun and talk about sundry topics from trivial to serious. Her generation (especially tech nerds like her) also spends so much time interacting online it's easy to assume they never do the in-person stuff unless you have some kind of insider perspective, like parents have.
 
Unfortunately I have had to try and understand suicide more than I ever wanted to. I will simply say that it is incredibly hard to understand, anticipate, and intervene. Many times it is a product of a break from reality. That break may be apparent after the fact, but prior to the act can appear normal, and the person may be strongly motivated to conceal.
 
brien23 said:
How many does it take."A report by French investigators into the Germanwings plane crash in the French Alps in March says co-pilot Andreas Lubitz may have practised for a rapid descent on a previous flight. It also highlights six other accidents since 1980 that were possibly "caused by intentional manoeuvres by one of the flight crew members". "Insurancejournal.com Jun 15, 2022 · Surveys of airline pilots have shown that about 4% to 8% have contemplated suicide."

1) Namibia, 29 November 2013, 33 died​

2) North Atlantic Ocean, 31 October 1999, 217 died​

3) Botswana, 11 January 1999, one died​

4) Indonesia, 19 December 1997, 104 died​

5) Morocco, 21 August 1994, 44 died​

6) Japan, 9 February 1982, 24 died​

Click to expand...
And a few with deadheading crew: PSA 1771 (Dec 1997) where a former ticket agent used his credentials to get a gun on board and shoot the crew and killed everybody.
A couple not completely successful: The AS 2059 (Oct 2023) where a jumpseater tried to shutdown the engines and the FedEx 705 (Apr 1994) jumpseating flight engineer tried to kill (and ended up serious injuring) the crew;.
 
Of the hundreds of millions of passenger miles, the frequency of this occurring is so low it would frankly be taking resources from other innovations/improvements that would have far greater impact on safety. In an industry that is the safest form of transportation on the planet.
 
brien23 said:
It's not if it's when, somehow the fuel cutoff switch shut off the fuel on Air india 787 Crash, if this turns out to be another Suicide by pilot deliberately crashed or attempted to crash an aircraft as a suicide act people are going to except autonomous aircraft over suicidal pilots. "Both Airbus and Boeing are actively researching and developing autonomous aircraft technologies. While Airbus is focusing on incorporating autonomous features into larger commercial aircraft and exploring the potential of autonomous air taxis, Boeing is also involved in autonomous systems for various applications". If you are one of those who would never get on a autonomous aircraft Greyhound Bus will still be around, not sure about Amtrack.
Click to expand...
People often take issue with me because I like to be precise . . . yeah, that confuses me too . . . but I wanted to point out "except" is a verb meaning to take or leave out from a number or a whole : exclude. intransitive verb. : to take exception : object. exceptive. (Webster) While "accept" means consent to receive (a thing offered). "he accepted a pen as a present"

I'm not ragging on you. But rather pointing out that the wrong word was used, perhaps by talk-to-type, perhaps by (my nemesis) "auto-incorrect". But, those who want pilotless airplanes want something dumber than the slowest of student pilots to fly millions of people safely when it can't correctly choose a word in a sentence.

How many people have been killed by the few driverless cars being road-tested? If the same risks are associated with pilotless planes, will we see a return to the safety norms that caused the creation of the CAA and CAB . . . a 100-year step backwards.
 
dans2992 said:
There is also something to be said for a crew that has “skin in the game”. I’m not sure how “accepted” autonomous operations will be.
Click to expand...
RyanB said:
Doctor gloom at it again, the reality is, most people will not prefer autonomous aircraft over human piloted. Statistically, events like these are still exceedingly rare.
Click to expand...
The younger generation - Maybe Gen Z, definitely Gen Alpha - will be so used to AI, automation, and everything just happening for them that they won't have a second thought about getting on an autonomous airliner.

To me, two pilots is best, zero pilots is next best, and one pilot is worst. Humans make mistakes, and without another person there to catch the mistake, that single pilot in the airliner has more responsibility than any one person should have, regardless of the automation level.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
The younger generation - Maybe Gen Z, definitely Gen Alpha - will be so used to AI, automation, and everything just happening for them that they won't have a second thought about getting on an autonomous airliner.

To me, two pilots is best, zero pilots is next best, and one pilot is worst. Humans make mistakes, and without another person there to catch the mistake, that single pilot in the airliner has more responsibility than any one person should have, regardless of the automation level.
Click to expand...

3 pilots are best. Fedex 705 with suicidal employee comes to mind. Air France 447 crash when the captain left the cockpit to the 2 other pilots as well.
 
When I first read about the fuel cut-off switches, it reminded me of the guy a few years ago who was in the jump seat tripping on shrooms and tried to kill both motors of that plane. Maybe that's what happened. Dude wasn't suicidal, he just had a bad shroom.

I kid. Mostly.
 
cowman said:
I think that probably plays into it all. There's certainly got to be a happy medium between bottling everything up and blubbering about every little difficulty in life.

One big thing I don't think a lot of people realize is that mental health doesn't necessarily mean seeing a professional. It used to be a lot more common for men to have places to hang out together outside of work, have groups of close friends, etc. I know for me talking about feelings doesn't make me feel better about anything. Things like a night sitting around drinking with friends, outdoor activities, flying to fun places, etc usually leave me in a better place mentally. It's difficult though, most of my adult male friends have families and work schedules that make getting together hard. I'm not entirely sure how we fix that but it seems to me like it fits into the overall problem.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I have a kid that works for me that is pretty clearly going through stuff. Some days he's fine. Other days I'll ask a question and he won't even look up at me or even mumble something. Head down and shake his head. Definitely makes it difficult for me as an employer when he gets in a mood. He's unproductive and pretty volatile towards everyone else to the point you're afraid to ask him to do anything.

I'll ask if he did anything over the weekend. Just stayed home and watched Netflix. Dude. You're 19 and physically healthy. Do something. Anything. Go to the gym. Go mow the lawn. Few people can introvert like me. But you have to get your brain working. Doing nothing because you've got things going on just exacerbates things. Pick up a new hobby. Try and learn a new skill.

An idle mind is the devil's workshop.

The last thing I want to do is talk about feelings. But dammit does it feel good to vent about work and life
 
Half Fast said:
How do you feel about a team of software engineers, none of whom are pilots and won’t be riding on the plane, and who may have downed a few beers at Joe’s retirement luncheon?
Click to expand...
Aren't they all named Al?
 
Half Fast said:
How do you feel about a team of software engineers, none of whom are pilots and won’t be riding on the plane, and who may have downed a few beers at Joe’s retirement luncheon?
Click to expand...
I spent a major part of my career doing image analysis software. Our major products for one for spy satellite images and another research project at the NIH. The spy one wasn't certified for targeting and when I heard we blew up an embassy in central Europe by mistake, I'm going... I hope it wasn't RemoteView, they're not supposed to be using it for that. When we finally got some of our software approved for clinical use (it's embedded in several popular lines of MRI machine), we had to put all sorts of ISO9000-ish controls in place. I had to remind the programmers to wash their hands (literally, that is a requirement) before working on the code.
 
flyingron said:
I spent a major part of my career doing image analysis software. Our major products for one for spy satellite images and another research project at the NIH. The spy one wasn't certified for targeting and when I heard we blew up an embassy in central Europe by mistake, I'm going... I hope it wasn't RemoteView, they're not supposed to be using it for that. When we finally got some of our software approved for clinical use (it's embedded in several popular lines of MRI machine), we had to put all sorts of ISO9000-ish controls in place. I had to remind the programmers to wash their hands (literally, that is a requirement) before working on the code.
Click to expand...

Those who consider automation to be a replacement for mistake-prone human pilots sometimes don't consider that the automation is created by mistake-prone humans. And frequently those who create the automation are not trained in the activity they're automating. A human mistake in the cockpit can crash an airplane, but a human mistake in the automation can crash multiple airplanes.

It's foolhardy to rely 100% on either.
 
brien23 said:
It's not if it's when, somehow the fuel cutoff switch shut off the fuel on Air india 787 Crash, if this turns out to be another Suicide by pilot.
Click to expand...
Isn’t subject really homicide by pilot? In the instances you posted, the pilot attempted (successfully or otherwise) to commit suicide. Everyone else associated with that attempt can’t be assumed to be committing suicide as well. In fact, as I think more about this, it’s really pre-meditated mass murder by an aircrew member.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top