Suicide by pilot

Didn’t the 737 MAX crash because of software?
 
I realize that AI is just getting started. When I do an internet search, at the top is the AI synopsis, its completely wrong so often that I'd rather it not show up. I scroll past immediately.

AI is only as good as the information it is fed, and even then it seems to get basic things wrong.
 
brien23 said:
How many does it take."A report by French investigators into the Germanwings plane crash in the French Alps in March says co-pilot Andreas Lubitz may have practised for a rapid descent on a previous flight. It also highlights six other accidents since 1980 that were possibly "caused by intentional manoeuvres by one of the flight crew members". "Insurancejournal.com Jun 15, 2022 · Surveys of airline pilots have shown that about 4% to 8% have contemplated suicide."
1) Namibia, 29 November 2013, 33 died
2) North Atlantic Ocean, 31 October 1999, 217 died
3) Botswana, 11 January 1999, one died
4) Indonesia, 19 December 1997, 104 died
5) Morocco, 21 August 1994, 44 died
6) Japan, 9 February 1982, 24 died
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These are very small numbers; perhaps the right answer is to wind the clock.

 
Autonomous aircraft control replaces application of a variant of the two person integrity concept with a trolley problem solution.

In either solution or even a blended solution, not every defect will be successfully prevented or overcome.
 
FWIW, there are plenty of middle grounds, all of which have trade-offs. Maybe certain "critical" decisions (turn fuel off, pull fire handles, continue into stall when detected, continue descent past limits, etc etc) require confirmation with buttons on opposite ends of the cockpit. Maybe a button for "pass control to ground" that can be pushed by either pilot if things get really weird (and maybe for multiple situations -- suicidal copilot vs thick smoke in cockpit).

Not saying these are perfect solutions -- tradeoffs and decisions should depend on relative risk of these things actually happening. I have to admit, as an "elder Millennial," I thought that "the people's" privacy concerns would have stopped half the stuff that wound up happening on the internet, so I am not counting on "the people's" general belief that they should have two pilots to actually shape policy 20 years from now.
 
This thread was stimulated by the speculation from the Air India crash, but at this time there is no enough information publicly available to positively attribute it to suicide. All we know is that one of the pilots, not even sure which, turned off the fuel switches. We do not know the motive or intent. Could have been as simple as a brain fart, a mistake, a misunderstanding, or with malice. They were turned back on after it was caught, so I'm not 100% certain of malice. Plus seems like an oddly specific way to try to intentionally crash a plane, far easier to just shove the controls forward.
 
2000 SE hrs accumulated over 50 years in mostly hi wings and I still recall having without thinking, cranked my 172M trim wheel the wrong way - several times. Mental control reversal?
 
nrpetersen said:
2000 SE hrs accumulated over 50 years in mostly hi wings and I still recall having without thinking, cranked my 172M trim wheel the wrong way - several times. Mental control reversal?
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There were apparently cases during WWII where fighter pilots unbuckled their seat harness to bail out, but automatically unbuckled their parachutes as well. So used to the process on the ground, after they landed.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
There were apparently cases during WWII where fighter pilots unbuckled their seat harness to bail out, but automatically unbuckled their parachutes as well. So used to the process on the ground, after they landed.
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It's been a few years since I flew in an AT-6 or a P-51, but as I recall, the buckles are right next to each other. I was surprised at that, due to how easy it might be to mistake one for the other. That was part of the pre-flight instruction "don't do that!".
 
MRC01 said:
It's been a few years since I flew in an AT-6 or a P-51, but as I recall, the buckles are right next to each other. I was surprised at that, due to how easy it might be to mistake one for the other. That was part of the pre-flight instruction "don't do that!".
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My T-6 has different colored straps for the parachute and seat belts; the buckles are different types as well. I always make a big point to stop after putting them in the parachute and explaining "this is how you should look if you need to get out and use the parachute; only take off the BLUE straps".

Honestly though, people using an emergency parachute after a massive problem in a warbird (in what is likely their only time in that airplane)... I don't put a lot of faith in their chances of successful bailout. I don't put much faith in anyone's chances that isn't practicing that particular emergency egress often.
 
EvilEagle said:
I don't put much faith in anyone's chances that isn't practicing that particular emergency egress often.
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A bit OT but this is my reply when a newbie asks about a ride & wants to know if I use parachutes in case the engine fails. I ask if they've ever used a chute or ever practiced bailing out of a plane ...
 
Half Fast said:
How do you feel about a team of software engineers, none of whom are pilots and won’t be riding on the plane, and who may have downed a few beers at Joe’s retirement luncheon?
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"Ideal airline crew of the future will be one pilot and one dog: the dog to bite the pilot if she tries to touch anything."
dogs_might_fly.webp
 
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cowman said:
Seems like if someone wants to conceal being suicidal it would be nearly impossible to find out with any kind of screening/testing. What some people are coming around to is a change in culture around mental health. For a long time we've effectively had a system that encouraged pilots to conceal any issues they're having, it might be time to encourage pilots to get help before they become suicidal.
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THIS ^^^^^

And also other health issues are hidden to keep their job.
 
I'm not sure if the murder problem can be solved, but I don't believe that continuing to call it a "suicide" problem helps at all. It's not just a word choice. In no way is killing 1 or 100+ people along with yourself suicide. Suicide is a tragic thing, and I don't know of anyone that hasn't been directly or indirectly affected by someone that's taken their own life. It's sad, and it's far too common. Mass murder, though, is far less common.

I think there are at least three reasons why this distinction is important. First, it characterizes suicidal people as potential mass murderers, and I don't think that's accurate. To anyone thinking "well these airplane crashes are much more serious", from CDC almost 50,000 people committed suicide in the US last year. Second, I don't believe there's any reason to believe that someone capable of or planning mass murder is going to act like someone considering suicide, simply because the vast majority of people who are suicidal don't commit mass murder. It's not going to be easy to screen for this. I bet not possible. Finally, I believe it's a lot harder to design an aircraft that one of the pilots can't crash, where everyone understands that the bad pilot has no ethical limitation to what they're going to do to cause the crash than the scenario that someone is just having a bad day and is going to have a momentary lapse of morality.

Or in other words, the premise is wrong. It should be "pilot intentionally crashing airplane". Trying to stop that is, IMHO, is a lot harder than it might seem.
 
wanttaja said:
There were apparently cases during WWII where fighter pilots unbuckled their seat harness to bail out, but automatically unbuckled their parachutes as well. So used to the process on the ground, after they landed.

Ron Wanttaja
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Muscle memory/training scars are real. In one high-profile shootout (I believe the FBI Miami one with the serial robbers, but not positive), it was found that the agents carrying revolvers had stopped during the gunfight to empty their spent cartridges into their hand, then pocket, before reloading and getting back in the game…just as they had done numerous times at the range.
 
Omalley1537 said:
Muscle memory/training scars are real. In one high-profile shootout (I believe the FBI Miami one with the serial robbers, but not positive), it was found that the agents carrying revolvers had stopped during the gunfight to empty their spent cartridges into their hand, then pocket, before reloading and getting back in the game…just as they had done numerous times at the range.
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That was a myth. It was the California Highway Patrol incident at Newhall in the late 60s. Every law enforcement officer hired after that heard about it in the academy,but 15 or 20 years ago back, it was confirmed to be untrue. No brass was found in any of the officers’ pockets.

The best reason anyone seems to able to figure for the story is that shortly after the incident, range training was changed to have officers dump their brass instead of pocket it, although that was coincidental with Newhall and not because of it.

ateamer,
Retired law enforcement firearms instructor
 
ateamer said:
That was a myth. It was the California Highway Patrol incident at Newhall in the late 60s. Every law enforcement officer hired after that heard about it in the academy,but 15 or 20 years ago back, it was confirmed to be untrue. No brass was found in any of the officers’ pockets.

The best reason anyone seems to able to figure for the story is that shortly after the incident, range training was changed to have officers dump their brass instead of pocket it, although that was coincidental with Newhall and not because of it.

ateamer,
Retired law enforcement firearms instructor
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Thanks for the correction-add me to the list of folks who were taught that (apparently incorrect) account in the academy.

Omalley,
Who’s at the stage of the career to wonder were the time went and double-check his academy date because it couldn’t possibly have been that long ago…
 
Albany Tom said:
Suicide is a tragic thing, and I don't know of anyone that hasn't been directly or indirectly affected by someone that's taken their own life. It's sad, and it's far too common. Mass murder, though, is far less common.
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I have known two people who took their own lives. As to what I consider to be your main point. That suicide is intensely self-focused. I completely agree. Neither of the people I knew would have wished to harm anyone else.

That is not to say that their actions did not cause grief. They did. But, both took pains to ensure that others were not in physical danger as a result of their actions. And both had what they considered to be logical reasons for doing what they did.
 
The real questions is will the ai-overlord-pilots take over s*it posting here so we can all relax and enjoy Archie Bunker reruns?
 
ateamer said:
That was a myth. It was the California Highway Patrol incident at Newhall in the late 60s. Every law enforcement officer hired after that heard about it in the academy,but 15 or 20 years ago back, it was confirmed to be untrue. No brass was found in any of the officers’ pockets.

The best reason anyone seems to able to figure for the story is that shortly after the incident, range training was changed to have officers dump their brass instead of pocket it, although that was coincidental with Newhall and not because of it.

ateamer,
Retired law enforcement firearms instructor
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Are we also talking about Northridge? Cause I remember watching that insanity on live TV. I don't remember if that happened before Heat (the movie), but I think they modeled it after the movie right? What a warning of darker societal things to come. 9/11 of course overshadowed little stuff like that
 
35 AoA said:
Are we also talking about Northridge? Cause I remember watching that insanity on live TV. I don't remember if that happened before Heat (the movie), but I think they modeled it after the movie right? What a warning of darker societal things to come. 9/11 of course overshadowed little stuff like that
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The North Hollywood bank was a different one. Newhall happened in 1969 or 1970.
 
Unfortunately I know more than I ever wanted to about Suicide. One of the people I love most died that way, and it shattered our family in a way that will never heal. I hate talking about it, but I have vowed to make myself talk about it, because that is the only way to prevent others from taking that path.

There is not a lot of objective information out there on the psychology of suicide. The most useful and plausible thing I have read is that suicide is a disease of internal dialog, that little voice we all have in our head that we carry on conversations with.

Everyone thinks about suicide sometimes. 99.9% of us quickly dismiss the thought when it pops up. With a deeply depressed person, the thought keeps popping up. Over time, the thought gradually becomes harder to dismiss. With many suicidal people, there is a long period of internal struggle. Eventually it becomes stronger than the thought to keep living.

At the end, suicidal people become subject to constricted thinking. They no longer see solving their problems as possible, and do not see living as an option. They also become unable to see the impact of their actions on others. They have tunnel vision, fixated solely on ending their life. They are also strangely calm and purposeful about it, not hysterical like you might imagine.

Once that happens, it comes down to luck. They are not going to seek help. They have to be caught in the act or in preparation, in such a way that causes decisive intervention.

So if you want to prevent suicide, it has to happen before the final stage, during the long descent when they are wrestling internally with the thought.

If that is going on in your head, if the thought of suicide seems a little more acceptable than it used to, I am writing this for you. You need to know the incredible wreckage and pain you are going to inflict. You are going to destroy everyone who loves you, and everyone you love. They will not recover. They will carry crushing anguish and despair for the rest of their lives. For their sake, do not let your thoughts drag you further down that path. Please seek help for the issues that trouble you. Every problem is solvable. Don't try and fix it yourself. Get help.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
At the end, suicidal people become subject to constricted thinking. They no longer see solving their problems as possible, and do not see living as an option. They also become unable to see the impact of their actions on others. They have tunnel vision, fixated solely on ending their life. They are also strangely calm and purposeful about it, not hysterical like you might imagine.
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Thank you for sharing.

This has also been my experience. He was a WW2 veteran who walked across North Africa, Italy, and France while being shot at. Built a business or three, and made a life with the gal he married the summer before Pearl Harbor. But six decades later . . . after cancer took her . . . he got all of their affairs in order, sold almost everything, or gave it away, and distributed the proceeds. Said he was going to an independent living place, but he had secretly saved the painkillers that remained after she passed away and washed all of them down with a bottle of Scotch.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
Unfortunately I know more than I ever wanted to about Suicide. One of the people I love most died that way, and it shattered our family in a way that will never heal. I hate talking about it, but I have vowed to make myself talk about it, because that is the only way to prevent others from taking that path.

There is not a lot of objective information out there on the psychology of suicide. The most useful and plausible thing I have read is that suicide is a disease of internal dialog, that little voice we all have in our head that we carry on conversations with.

Everyone thinks about suicide sometimes. 99.9% of us quickly dismiss the thought when it pops up. With a deeply depressed person, the thought keeps popping up. Over time, the thought gradually becomes harder to dismiss. With many suicidal people, there is a long period of internal struggle. Eventually it becomes stronger than the thought to keep living.

At the end, suicidal people become subject to constricted thinking. They no longer see solving their problems as possible, and do not see living as an option. They also become unable to see the impact of their actions on others. They have tunnel vision, fixated solely on ending their life. They are also strangely calm and purposeful about it, not hysterical like you might imagine.

Once that happens, it comes down to luck. They are not going to seek help. They have to be caught in the act or in preparation, in such a way that causes decisive intervention.

So if you want to prevent suicide, it has to happen before the final stage, during the long descent when they are wrestling internally with the thought.

If that is going on in your head, if the thought of suicide seems a little more acceptable than it used to, I am writing this for you. You need to know the incredible wreckage and pain you are going to inflict. You are going to destroy everyone who loves you, and everyone you love. They will not recover. They will carry crushing anguish and despair for the rest of their lives. For their sake, do not let your thoughts drag you further down that path. Please seek help for the issues that trouble you. Every problem is solvable. Don't try and fix it yourself. Get help.
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Thanks for that, it provides an insight I didn't have, in the sense of how it at least sometimes progresses. If it was the path of my surviving friend, then she must have been in that stage where recovery is possible, because she's fortunately been around for 20 years since then, and has started a family and is doing great. My point being that while it may be true that there's a progression where it's not recoverable, there is absolutely a point where it's both possible and recoverable. That doesn't mean anyone can see it, or help it, though.

I still don't believe that depression by itself will cause a normal person to become a murderer. That's too far of a leap in what I believe consciousness is about that I just don't see it. I think that's an unrelated part of brain chemistry/processing that is much more rare. I could, of course, be wrong.
 
brien23 said:
It's not if it's when, somehow the fuel cutoff switch shut off the fuel on Air india 787 Crash, if this turns out to be another Suicide by pilot deliberately crashed or attempted to crash an aircraft as a suicide act people are going to except autonomous aircraft over suicidal pilots. "Both Airbus and Boeing are actively researching and developing autonomous aircraft technologies. While Airbus is focusing on incorporating autonomous features into larger commercial aircraft and exploring the potential of autonomous air taxis, Boeing is also involved in autonomous systems for various applications". If you are one of those who would never get on a autonomous aircraft Greyhound Bus will still be around, not sure about Amtrack.
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Would autonomous planes be more at risk from hacking than piloted planes would be from suicides?
 
Mileage said:
Would autonomous planes be more at risk from hacking than piloted planes would be from suicides?
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I'm uncertain how state-sponsors, or criminal organizations can induce pilot suicides. I am quite clear on how state-sponsors and criminal organizations can employ thousands to hack . . . well just about anything connected to the web.
 
billsgs126 said:
I'm uncertain how state-sponsors, or criminal organizations can induce pilot suicides. I am quite clear on how state-sponsors and criminal organizations can employ thousands to hack . . . well just about anything connected to the web.
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Al Qaeda figured that out on 9/11
 
The "suicidal mass murdering pilot" strikes me as a "sharks in the sky" risk. It is wildly rare but terrifying to contemplate. In a country were we sacrifice 30k+ people every year to automobile accidents and significantly more to, shall we say "other" the intense focus on sky-sharks seems misplaced at best.

Medical reform is desperately needed in this industry. Elaborate sky-shark prevention is not.

Mental illness will kill you just as sure as cancer, but the aviation-murdering aspect of it is clickbait.
 
Mileage said:
Would autonomous planes be more at risk from hacking than piloted planes would be from suicides?
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We know their is a problem with suicide, most people would probably think less risk with autonomous planes. This is not going to be the last pilot to takes all of us in the back of the bus with him, how many more till public opinion demands major change to those flying the planes, or except autonomous airliners. As to hacking we are their now, trains, ATC, airline computers, the power grid, hospitals, just about all modern life is subject to computer hacking now, and all could kill many.
 
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