STARs

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by Morgan3820, Jun 13, 2018 at 5:18 PM.

  1. Morgan3820

    Morgan3820 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2013
    Messages:
    1,097
    Location:
    New Bern, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Reno
    While on my IPC, I happened to ask my instructor about STARs. He suggested that I would not likely encounter them much with my type of flying, i.e. Not landing at Class B airports.
    When flying small piston do any of you make much use of them? Looking at the literature it seems like they are for the turbine crowd. Is this something that I need to know more about?
     
  2. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    17,745
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Display name:
    It depends. Denver approach will give a STAR for an approach from the south or west to any of the reliever airports. From the east you may just get vectors. Houston may give a STAR or vectors to the relievers, haven't flown there enough figure out the whys/wheres. Anyway, fly to an airport near a Bravo and a STAR may be in your future.

    All that said, STARs are usually pretty easy to follow by flying from fix to fix. Nothing to stress over.
     
  3. tsts4

    tsts4 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    705
    Location:
    Dumfries, VA (suburb of DC)
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Auburntsts
    In the 4 years since I got my rating, I’ve flown exactly 1. Coming back to Virginia from New Orleans a couple of months ago it was IMC around Atlanta and my fuel stop was on the east side of the metro area with nasty weather all around. They gave me a STAR to get me from the west side of Atlanta to the east. The flight terminated with an LPV approach to mins in heavy rain.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018 at 5:03 AM
  4. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,986
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Seems to be rare but It varies with geography. There is a STAR heading into the Virginia Beach area given to light pistons coming in from south and west of the Raleigh area, even into a nontowered airport. Then there are the routings than are exactly the same as a STAR but the STAR itself wasn't mentioned.
     
  5. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    16,331
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Sounds like he's not comfortable with them.

    Ive gotten them in my piston plane before, you are not ready for a checkride of you can't read and execute a SID and STAR.

    I'd off the cuff say half only are not used for non JET aircraft, maybe 20-30% are only for turbine, lots still also apply to piston planes.
     
  6. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Messages:
    2,098
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    aterpster
    Yes, for the "turbine crowd" into places such as LAX. But, in the SoCal area they are used for many Podunk airports as well.
     
  7. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    8,333
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jordan
    Depends on your location. I’ve never gotten a STAR flying into airports in the NE, mid Atlantic and Midwest. I’ve flown pistons into JFK, LGA, EWR, BOS, CLE, IAD, CLT, PHL, PIT, BWI.
     
  8. labbadabba

    labbadabba Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,957
    Location:
    Lawrence, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    labbadabba
    I flew a STAR last night KSGF -> KIXD, but I filed for it under /A
     
  9. Lon33

    Lon33 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2014
    Messages:
    91
    Location:
    Santa Monica
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lon
    I was given a STAR into KVNY (Van Nuys ILS Rwy 16R) on a training flight in a Cessna 172.
     
  10. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    5,574
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kritchlow
    I’m guessing you meant to qualify that you don’t get STARS while flying a slow, low altitude airplane to those areas.
    I’m certain you get them nearly 100% of the time in the jet..??
     
  11. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    20,365
    Location:
    Michigan
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ed Frederick
    Every STAR I've ever seen for the airports I've gone into ALWAYS had crossing altitudes way higher than what I'm flying or a note that says something to the effect of "TURBOPROP and TURBOJET only" or something similar.
     
  12. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    8,333
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jordan
    Yes
     
  13. Plano Pilot

    Plano Pilot Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    155
    Location:
    KADS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Plano Pilot
    We operate both a Citation and a Cessna 340 out of KADS. I file and get SIDs and STARs in both airplanes.
     
  14. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    14,271
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fearless Tower
    The Drone 2. It gets used, but very sporadically and I haven’t been able to figure out a rhyme or reason. They only issue it maybe 10-20% of the time, and most of the time they clear you direct to your destination shortly after assigning the STAR.

    Then there are times when out of the blue they’ll tell you to go direct DRONE and fly the Arrival, which is kind of silly since the procedure calls for radar vectors after DRONE.

    But then Norfolk is a generally half-assed TRACON.
     
  15. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    5,574
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kritchlow
    Stars.. AKA arrivals.

    Low, slow flying aircraft unlikely to be issued a STAR. High speed jets almost guaranteed to get one if there is one published to that airport.
    Now, the profile decent is another story of and within itself. Just don’t do it unless specifically cleared.
     
  16. RussR

    RussR Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    954
    Location:
    Oklahoma City, OK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Russ
    I get issued STARS all the time flying single-engine GA into the DFW area. It's great training for my instrument students.

    Also, realize that you will not get issued an RNAV STAR unless you have filed using the ICAO flight plan format AND properly selected the PBN code D2.
     
  17. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    14,271
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fearless Tower
    That’s a good point. I’ve been assigned arrivals going into FTW in a piston twin
     
  18. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2010
    Messages:
    14,249
    Location:
    Denton, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Now offering reverse discounts.
    Confirming this. Coming home to KDTO (class D airport) from middle to west Oklahoma, I'm given the GREGGS arrival. And coming back from Tulsa, Joplin, or Ft. Smith, I'm given the SASIE arrival.

    From home from Houston, it's the DODJE arrival.

    I say being familiar with the possible STARS for your destination, and having the appropriate plates at the ready for it, should always be part of your pre-flight planning and CRM setup.
     
  19. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2010
    Messages:
    14,249
    Location:
    Denton, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Now offering reverse discounts.
    For us piston pushers, if we have a WAAS box such as the GTN's, IFD's, Garmin _30W's, and CNX80/GNS480 and such, can we file as D2?
     
  20. BigBadLou

    BigBadLou En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2014
    Messages:
    4,869
    Location:
    TX - the friendliest state
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lou
    ^^^^ That

    As an instrument rated pilot, you should be capable of flying the STAR if you are given one. Yes, you can always say "unable" and hopefully get vectors but it is not good form. That's why we trained for the instrument ticket, we should be familiar with and competent enough to fly a SID or STAR any day.
    FWIW, my DPE requested a STAR for my mock flight plan on my IR checkride.
     
  21. tsts4

    tsts4 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    705
    Location:
    Dumfries, VA (suburb of DC)
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Auburntsts
    Yes
     
  22. sarangan

    sarangan Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    131
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Andrew Sarangan
    I don't think your instructor is correct. You don't have to be landing at the Class B airport to be given a STAR, nor is there anything implied about turbine aircraft. Even if you are flying around a class B to a satellite airport you can expect a STAR. I have been given STAR or DP at Chicago and Detroit areas. Class C airports also have them. However, it may be true that you rarely fly the entire STAR as depicted. In the majority of cases you will be asked to fly to the main arrival fix specified in the STAR and then expect radar vectors from there. Its really not much to it, but it is better to be familiar with it rather than being caught off guard.
     
  23. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2010
    Messages:
    14,249
    Location:
    Denton, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Now offering reverse discounts.
    To me, having the STAR available and expecting it to be assigned, is a good thing.

    Helps me know what is expected of me to transition from the en route to the approach environment. And be ready for what ATC is likely to tell me to do at a particular point.
     
  24. RussR

    RussR Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    954
    Location:
    Oklahoma City, OK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Russ
    BGRS, D2 is what I usually file. You can file more PBN codes (B2 and C2 and S1), but it won't make a difference in normal operations. Even putting the first "B" in there (meaning LPV capability) isn't going to help anything, but I do anyway - not sure why.
     
  25. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2010
    Messages:
    14,249
    Location:
    Denton, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Now offering reverse discounts.
    Thanks Russ.

    Many RNAV SIDS/STARS have been added in the last few years. Nice to know I can now take advantage of them in the Skylane.
     
  26. simtech

    simtech Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    2,051
    Location:
    mississippi
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Simtech
    Last time I flew to KHQZ (south east of DFW) from Mississippi in my cherokee I was given the Fingr 5 arrival. I filed direct and that was thrown at me, no worries though. Must depend on the area and volume of traffic??
     
  27. Stephen Shore

    Stephen Shore Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2017
    Messages:
    90
    Location:
    Longview, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    sshore
    Definitely flying into Houston or Dallas Class B's expect STARS (or SIDS). They are really not a big deal, especially if you have a 430 or better GPS. But even if you just have a tablet they are easy (Garmin Pilot allows you to quickly load them based on the transition fix).

    I always file a flight plan with them as part of the route - saves me time and I don't have an AP.

    My only beef is that if you are not familiar with an airport or area, there is no intuitive way to know which STAR to expect other than their transition fixes, but if you are not familiar with the fixes you have to study the chart. It would be nice if they were listed by quadrants in the Class B.

    Anyway, they are not an issue and I do recommend to file with them in your FP.
     
  28. Clip4

    Clip4 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages:
    2,435
    Location:
    A Rubber Room
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cli4ord
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018 at 8:23 PM
  29. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2010
    Messages:
    14,249
    Location:
    Denton, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Now offering reverse discounts.
    Actually...... what you desire has been part of FF for a few years now.

    The procedure advisor shows you graphically which SID or STAR you might be given. And once selected with the transition fix, is easily added to your flight plan.

    852F8C32-B9E6-458A-8837-5294BF18432F.jpeg
     
    simtech likes this.
  30. Stephen Shore

    Stephen Shore Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2017
    Messages:
    90
    Location:
    Longview, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    sshore
    Great tool! Unfortunately I can't use FF because they don't support Android. But hopefully Garmin Pilot might add that someday. Very impressive!
     
  31. Topper

    Topper Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Messages:
    334
    Location:
    Benton
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Topper
    Seems like I usually get a star at busy airspace and when above 15k, but I think that varies by location. Frequently I never fly any of the star, about the time I get it loaded and briefed, they start vectoring me.

    SIDS are more common in the Midwest, but they are typically very simple, fly runway heading until 400 feet then fly heading x, radar vectors.
     
  32. azure

    azure Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    Messages:
    7,177
    Location:
    Vermont
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    azure
    Seems they are given to bugsmashers in the NE. I was given one leaving KDXR a few years back. Was not assigned a STAR though - might have been, but I canceled and arrived VFR because the route I was given IFR took me about 50 nm out of my way.

    In fact I've yet to be assigned a STAR anywhere. It will probably happen sooner or later of course.