Okay. So post the specific rule that requires the ATF to be involved with repack/replacement of the CAPS or a BRS?
Soooo Many Cirrus' For Sale
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Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
I got a better idea, walk into a Cirrus center that does these and let them explain it to you.
Qualifications For Cirrus CAPS Parachute System Repacks Include:
- Cirrus Authorized Service Center
- Technicians exclusively trained by Cirrus
- Factory-trained on Cirrus composite repairs
- ATF-licensed to handle explosives
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No need. Here’s a link to an FAA LOI that shows I can perform the CAPS repack under my A&P provided I have the necessary experience, knowledge, and tools. So that takes care of the top 3 bullet points. As to the ATF, 27 CFR § 555.32 provides the exemption process for the last bullet item and is similar to the process I researched to work on an active ejection seat found in an ex-military jet operated under experimental exhibition.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Good for you. Call up cirrus and get the parts. Just give them your ATF number.
David Loftus
Pre-takeoff checklist
Not true. Diamond seats are fixed in place for a reason. The pedals move, not the seats. They have a >20G honeycombed crush zone beneath them for added protection and no seat slides to fail in an accident.
David Loftus
Pre-takeoff checklist
Same as the Diamond, but the Cirrus is on seat slides which can fail just like a car seat. Diamond seats are fixed in place/
I flew DA40's for a couple of years. I know about the fixed seats and adjustable pedals but did not know the rest of the seats are so similar to Cirrus. The Diamond POH only mentions that the seat frames are kevlar and the seat foam is energy absorbing but does not say anything about crushable aluminum honeycomb. Nor does it warn against standing or kneeling on the seats.
Can you cite your sources? Where is this documented?
flyingcheesehead
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I was under the impression that this is required for newly certified aircraft now. But yeah, I know I picked up the "26G safety seats" from somewhere too...
I dont recall the date but all new aircraft require some sort of G-seat. Some OEMs will also incorporate those seats in older models provided the underlying structure can allow the seat to crush or "stroke" down properly.
flyingcheesehead
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POH, section 7.6 talks about the materials.
From the brochure:
Passive safety features such as aluminum fuel cells protected by the DA40’s dual carbon fiber spars, help prevent post impact fires, a 26G rated safety cell cockpit and a host of other built in features help keep you safe should the unexpected happen. As a result, the DA40 line tops the general aviation list with both the lowest overall and fatal rates (Source: Aviation Consumer January 2012).
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
Maybe folks are selling their Cirrus because the recent negativity towards Tesla is getting to them...
Still no mention of aluminum honeycomb and whether or not kneeling on it is ok.
flyingcheesehead
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Given that it doesn't say anything about that in the POH, it must not be prohibited. However, there's also zero point in ever kneeling on those seats. Even my 8-year-old would probably be bumping his head if he did that.
As far as the particular construction, what's important about aluminum? The DA40 seats are carbon fiber and kevlar.
Feh
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From the SR22 POH:
Seats
The seating arrangement consists of two individually adjustable seats
for the pilot and front seat passenger and a “2+1” configuration with a
one-piece bench seat and fold-down seat backs for the rear seat
passengers.
• Caution •
Do not kneel or stand on the seats. The seat bottoms have an
integral aluminum honeycomb core designed to crush under
impact to absorb downward loads.
francisco collazos
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You should do this and see what happens. It's actually a pretty good idea
flyingcheesehead
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I'm not sure why you're so hung up on aluminum honeycomb.
The DA40 seat is carbon fiber and kevlar. No aluminum. It's still a 26G safety seat, aluminum honeycomb or not.
455 Bravo Uniform
Final Approach
So one cannot just order chute parts from BRS, or Spruce? Gotta go to Circus? And ATF?
What do the experimental guys do, or those with an STC for their certified aircraft (like 182)?
What do the experimental guys do, or those with an STC for their certified aircraft (like 182)?
Trogdor
Pre-takeoff checklist
The DA40 is not equivalent to an SR22 by any stretch of the imagination (I've flown both). In fact, I did my CPL in a DA40 and it is a terrific bird, but it's no SR22.
For any kind of significant XC, the SR22 is gonna beat the DA40 pretty much in all metrics:
* SR22 is significantly faster (someone said "a little bit of top", try "25-30 knots"
* SR22 has a parachute
* SR22 is roomier and far more ergonomic
* SR22 has a useful load more than a gallon of milk
Ok, that last comment is not 100% true but MOSTLY true. DA40 useful load is pretty terrible (it also has a maximum landing weight which isn't normally a problem but can be with people and full fuel and an early turn back).
Plus the DA40 has ZERO upgrade path. Diamond has a ton a pi$$ poor job of starving the market with inventory and not making the DA40 more configurable via STC. That's why the price of a used DA40 is outrageous (not to mention the added surcharge because it is a flight school plane).
However, the DA40 is definitely an easier plane to fly, cheaper to own, very forgiving, and has awesome visibility.
For any kind of significant XC, the SR22 is gonna beat the DA40 pretty much in all metrics:
* SR22 is significantly faster (someone said "a little bit of top", try "25-30 knots"
* SR22 has a parachute
* SR22 is roomier and far more ergonomic
* SR22 has a useful load more than a gallon of milk
Ok, that last comment is not 100% true but MOSTLY true. DA40 useful load is pretty terrible (it also has a maximum landing weight which isn't normally a problem but can be with people and full fuel and an early turn back).
Plus the DA40 has ZERO upgrade path. Diamond has a ton a pi$$ poor job of starving the market with inventory and not making the DA40 more configurable via STC. That's why the price of a used DA40 is outrageous (not to mention the added surcharge because it is a flight school plane).
However, the DA40 is definitely an easier plane to fly, cheaper to own, very forgiving, and has awesome visibility.
I always thought of the DA40 as more of a SR20 competitor. The 22 is almost in a class of its own, especially the FIKI turbos. It competes more in the space that used to be occupied by light twins, which makes sense if you consider the 'chute to be "half an engine" as mentioned above. The guy who's thinking about an SR-22 is going to be cross-shopping a DA-42 or even -62. That step between a big fast single piston and a SETP.
I was mainly curious why Cirrus says you can't kneel on their seats while Diamond does not.
My recollection over a number of years of reading various forums (so don’t take any of this as fact). Early on I think I read that BRS was going to try to offer replacement chutes but Cirrus found a way to make that not happen. I don’t remember exactly if it was by putting the chute on the Type Certificate (TC) or somehow coercing or applying some incentive for BRS to abandon that notion. I believe BRS has the technical ability to offer replacement chutes via STC but for some reason decided against it.
My feeling is that the only part number that is an acceptable replacement part for the chute is only available via Cirrus. I know that only specific Cirrus service centers are allowed to replace the chute. I understand that they need approval/cerification/documentation from the ATF. I believe Cirrus will only sell to the certified chute replacement service centers. I suspect what they are doing is legal otherwise someone else would be offering replacements. There’s a steady income stream in Cirrus chutes.
I believe non-Cirrus aircraft have the option to placard the system in-op and fly legally. I think the repack for the 182s from BRS are significantly cheaper than Cirrus aircraft. The Cirrus is not airworthy by any means 10 years after the date the installed Chute was manufactured (not the date it was installed).
If the replacement chutes for the Cirrus are made in China the tariffs may make an incredibly overpriced 10 year repack even more unpalatable.
There are many different choices in aircraft. People have favorites. Is your choice solely based on price/perceived value? The RV10 and the various Cirrus choices seem to be aimed at a different set of pilots. What would you choose if you need FIKI. I don’t need FIKI and my current plane doesn’t have it. For some it’s a requirement. Would you purchase a kit or pre-owned. I haven’t shopped RV10’s, is it easy to get one with AC? I have considered selling and buying another 182. Both are wonderful aircraft. Right now I want a fixed gear, two door aircraft with AC. I prefer high wing and 160 KTAS or greater. The Cirrus and 182 do not overlap. It’s not an obvious choice for me. I’ve had 3 182s and 2 Cirrus. Which ever I own there are times I wish I still owned the other.
No perfect aircraft for me. Cirrus parts prices and availability (a wingtip is backordered for 18 weeks) are beginning to make the speed of the 182 more palatable.
flyingcheesehead
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I don't think anyone said any such thing. This is what started it:
If you decide you need the speed, the chute, or the useful load, then fork it over and fly the SR22.
The DA40 can take around 660 pounds with full fuel, IIRC. So it's a three seater if the tanks are full. That's not so bad.
What are you talking about?? What STCs do you think the DA40 should have?
Yup.
<Coughs in big-bore Mooney>
And there's Bonanzas of course. But yeah, my Ovation is in the same class as the SR22, as are some Bonanzas.
<points at the Acclaim that will leave the SR22T in the dust>
Yup.
I guess Diamond's old marketing tactic for the DA42 vs the SR22 was to take people on a demo flight over a large body of water and pull an engine, then say "Which do you want now, a second engine, or a parachute?"
Because Cirrus' seat depends on that aluminum honeycomb which is apparently close enough to the surface that kneeling on it can damage it. Diamond uses other methods to get to that 26G certification.
flyingcheesehead
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Clearly, the only correct solution is to have one of each.
No hangars available here. I was thinking the Stinson would satisfy my high wing itch. Turns out I just having a wheel exclusively at the front or back still leaves a void in airplane nirvana.Clearly, the only correct solution is to have one of each.
What ended my time in DA40's was the CG. I could fill both the tanks and the seats with a few pounds to spare but then we'd be too tail-heavy.
David Loftus
Pre-takeoff checklist
Not sure what variant you were flying, Diamonds are no more sensitive on CG than other similar aircraft. The DA40NG is actually a bit more nose heavy with the water-cooled diesel. With 850 lbs of useful load, my DA40 can take plenty of people and gas. I just put the heavier passenger in the front seat and I have zero issues. Sometimes empty CG can vary from one plane to the next depending on choice of prop, etc, but my DA40 is highly versatile. Would I like a couple hundred pounds more useful load, sure. But with a Cirrus, that comes with much higher fuel burn (7gph vs 15gph, effectively helping to equalize useful load between the two) and a lot more expense and risk with CAPS, maintaining a Conti 6 vs a Lycoming 4, etc. Cirrus is a great aircraft, faster and higher useful load, just A LOT more expensive to acquire, run, and maintain. For the price, I don't think there is a better performing, safer, or easier to maintain aircraft out there than Diamond.
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Two were DA40XL, G1000, 50 gallon tanks, 2646lb MTOW. One of them had the Hartzell composite prop and the other the Hartzell aluminum. The third was a DA40NG.
50 gallon (versus 40 gallon) tanks narrows the aft CG from 102inches down to 100.4 inches.
And speaking of similar aircraft, the 66lb baggage limit is about half that of similar aircraft or worse.
That doesn't help because the DA40NG aft CG limit narrows even more, down to 99.6inches.
We were trying to load 270lbs in the front seats, 220lbs in the rear seats, 50 gallons of gas and 50 lbs of baggage (preferably more if we could take it). That put us outside the aft CG limit on all 3 DA40XL/DA40NG.
One of the things that the DA40 and Cirrus variants share is the precision needed to pull them into a GA sized hangar. The Cirrus wingspan is over 38’. The internet says DA40 wingspan is over 39’. This fact is why I am familiar with the lead time for a new Cirrus (14-18 weeks) wingtip. One of my best recent investments though. When I bought it in December it was $1,800ish. When I checked again in February it was over $2,400. I still haven’t taken delivery. My stocks have not fared so well.
David Loftus
Pre-takeoff checklist
Yeah, a lot of discussions on the Diamond forum about the best way to avoid hangar rash on a DA40 with a 39'6" wingspan. Cirrus and Diamond share the challenge of a free-castering nose gear that wants to go sideways when trying to push a plane backwards into the hangar (especially up a slight grade and over the door rails). Fortunately, I found a 45' T-hangar so I don't have as tight a constraint as many. But I still always use my tug and have a winch mounted in the back of the hangar as a backup.
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flyingcheesehead
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The various DA40s have had CGs all over the map, so there are small balance weights available to fix that. Or in the case of a newer one that's tail heavy, you may need to remove the weight.
One of them goes right inside the front of the cowl, the other one goes all the way in the back of the tail, so you don't need much weight to have a significant effect on CG.
I ended up getting checked out in the Grumman and Mooney.
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Trogdor
Pre-takeoff checklist
What are you talking about?? What STCs do you think the DA40 should have?
Try getting a GFC500 in a DA40? How about ANY autopilot other than the KAP140? See what happens. That is just ONE example. The DA40 is not a very nice platform to upgrade in general.
And useful load is only half the battle, you also have to check the CG and the maximum landing weight as well. Tail strikes are a constant thing with it.
I got tons of hours in a DA40. I love that bird. But it was built as a trainer/flying school plane, not a family XC hauler.
traumamed
Pre-takeoff checklist
Out of the Diamond line, I am surprised no one has mentioned the DA-50RG yet. It certainly has the potential to be a legitimate SR-22 competitor.
The SR-22 is a great airplane and a joy to fly, but it is not head and shoulders above its contemporaries. If we compare spec sheets: Bonanzas, any Mooney from the M20K onward, and the 400/TTx all fall in the same basic camp. However, most of these alternatives do not have 'chutes and do not look like Faberge eggs.
As this all relates to the OP's original question: SR-22 pricing has gone insane the past couple of years, disproportionate to the general aircraft price insanity. A G7 SR-22T now flirts with the same price bracket as a late-model M350. Maybe buyers are starting to realize that dollar-for-dollar, they can buy a lot more airplane with their money if they step outside the Cirriverse.
Trogdor
Pre-takeoff checklist
I agree in principle, but can you really say you have the same level of *support* as you do with an SR22? The Cirrus ecosystem (including it being a lifestyle brand) is very compelling for someone willing to drop over a million bucks on a plane.
Mahneuvers
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There's a guy trying to form a SR22 partnership at EQY. I've been looking for a partnership at EQY for years (aircraft somewhat flexible). I gave him my name but I'm thinking it will not work out as he's only looking for one or two partners max. I need more division of cost. I was thinking of suggesting a 5 person partnership where people can buy >1 share if they want. I've heard of people owning >1 share in a partnership as a result of people leaving. Not sure if/how often partnerships start out that way.
I'll agree with most of this, but there's one thing the cirrus has that the mooney and bo don't: comfort. I'm a big guy, and the sr22 is the second most comfortable plane I've sat in, behind only the sf-50
. The cirrus looks like an egg because it's designed for 2000 size people instead of 1950 size people.I'd take an sr22T over an m350 at the same price.