So, are we revoking airworthiness certificates for all Canadian-made aircraft?

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AV8R_87

AV8R_87

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I won't post the screenshot (trying to keep this open for more than a couple posts), but it seems like the presidential administration is upset with Canada not "certifying" the Gulfstream 500, 600, 700 and 800 and is deciding to retaliate by revoking certificates for all Canadian-made aircraft.
 
AV8R_87 said:
but it seems like the presidential administration is upset with Canada not "certifying" the Gulfstream 500, 600, 700 and 800 and is deciding to retaliate by revoking certificates for all Canadian-made aircraft.
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Except this issue post-dates both of these admins. Need to read up on the history of Bombardier, the family behind it, and the Canadian government loans. It appears someone has been doing their due diligence and finding old leverage points to further the "cause" with our neighbors to the north.
 
www.reuters.com

Trump threatens Canada with aircraft tariffs, decertification over Gulfstream approvals

President Donald Trump said on Thursday the U.S. was decertifying Bombardier Global Express business jets and threatened 50% import tariffs on all aircraft made in Canada until the country's regulator certified a number of planes produced by U.S. rival Gulfstream.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

Well, this might not be around long, but it's a very high level change in US aviation policy/administration. I guess we will see, what we will see(or not see?)
 
Oops, I seem to have double-threaded. Mods, please merge, or close.

Apologies.
 
GREAT. NOT. The Caterpillar flight team wil be back to flying their G300s.....sigh.
 
How does that connect with Transport Canada not "certifying" various Gulfstream models, though?
 
AV8R_87 said:
How does that connect with Transport Canada not "certifying" various Gulfstream models, though?
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Protect Bombardier from "competition". Ironically, the Gulfstreams that do operate in Canada tend to be N-reg...
 
If I may offer some perspective here, This is how things get sideways.

The Canadian Bombardier G7500 was developed in 2016, was approved by TransCan in late 2018, and passed US FAA cert about the same time in late 2018. The next evolution of the 7500 was the G8000, and it entered service in Dec 2025, quickly after the FAA certified the G8000 plane.

Now, the US made Gulfstream family of G650, 700, 800 were also in development in 2018 time frame with the G650 gaining US cert in 2018 and the 700 getting US cert in mid-2019.

The Gulfstream planes have been waiting, and waiting, and waiting for TransCan to cert the 650, 700, 800 for six years now. It passed EU cert not long after the FAA, but as Bombardier had a competitive plane already certified in the entire world(incl the US which seems to have fast-tracked cert), one has to wonder WTF is keeping TransCan from certification of the US made competitor to the Can G7500/8000?

Nothing in life is fair, and I don't expect fairness from anyone. But - when a competitor nation starts treating the US mfgs like little turds, while their home grown products are readily available around the world, then - I guess I can understand the anger, frustration and blowup.

Sometimes, there is no nuance, sometimes there's just a plane(pun intended) old 'FU, USA' at work.
 
I am embarassed to admit, I thought Gulfstream was a European aircraft make.
 
Just doesn't seem fair. Canada is just a little country and all that. And now we're picking on them? Shame on us! They probably need the money and an improved economy more than we do....

IMG_1707.jpg
 
Ectually, it's a very convoluted, and incestuous corp history and structure. Gen Dynamics used to own Canadair. Was sold back to Canada and eventually became Bombardier with the merger of some other mfg systems. Then GD bought Gulfstream Aerospace from one of my prev employers Gulf, General Atomics(once also owned by GD). So - the players keep moving around the seats as long as the music plays, and when it stops, someone is always left without a seat to sit on.

If that weren't enough, edit to add - GD at one time owned Cessna. Yup.
 
All the Gulfstreams except for the G800 are typed here I believe. TC is finalizing certification as this is happening. He's picking a fight over something a few months out

The Gulfstreams in question also don't pass TCCA Icing parameters. The FAA and EASA gave an exemption to Gulfstream, TC will not.

For the moment what this means is that a Canadian owner can't register under a C reg, but the aircraft can enter Canada under an N or EASA reg.

This quite literally has zero effect on sales or operability. Old Demented Don.
 
Also, a large chunk of US regional/private airlines would have to cease operations.

Anyone flying:
CRJ Line
Global's
Challengers
Canadair CL-415 (the planes that fight your fires)
Diamond DA20
Diamond DA40/42
Diamond DA62
Airbus A-220-100
Dash-8
Otters
Beavers
Bell Helicopters

Anything Powered by a P&WC turbojet engine would be in trouble as well......
 
WhichWays_Up said:
All the Gulfstreams except for the G800 are typed here I believe. TC is finalizing certification as this is happening. He's picking a fight over something a few months out

The Gulfstreams in question also don't pass TCCA Icing parameters. The FAA and EASA gave an exemption to Gulfstream, TC will not.

For the moment what this means is that a Canadian owner can't register under a C reg, but the aircraft can enter Canada under an N or EASA reg.

This quite literally has zero effect on sales or operability. Old Demented Don.
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So, six years delay? Over some obscure ice req? Respectfully, I've been in Canada. I've also been in N Japan, Russia, and EU. There is no kind of special icing in the Great White North that can't be found on every other part of the 45th parallel(N or S). It's not something I'm an expert about for sure, but Canada ice is just the same as Norway ice, or Hokaido ice or NZ. He's picked a fight over something that should have been done in 2019.
 
Barrett50 said:
Sometimes, there is no nuance, sometimes there's just a plane(pun intended) old 'FU, USA' at work.
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While "FU USA" is definitely in force up here these days, I have sincere doubts it's causing delays at TC. TC certification department has like three employees and one broken coffee maker.....

Or maybe they are messing with ya. Who knows!?

wYHwrRjXz0BQRLF83Nov8GX1SYgXVnO2Dlhy_FrQxG4.gif
 
WhichWays_Up said:
The Gulfstreams in question also don't pass TCCA Icing parameters. The FAA and EASA gave an exemption to Gulfstream, TC will not.
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Not quite. The exemptions being noted were only applicable during the flight test stages and are not part of the type certificate. So TCCA has accepted the same FAR fuel ice results with all other similar aircraft except the 800 which completed certification in the beginning of last year.
 
WhichWays_Up said:
Also, a large chunk of US regional/private airlines would have to cease operations.

Anyone flying:
CRJ Line
Global's
Challengers
Canadair CL-415 (the planes that fight your fires)
Diamond DA20
Diamond DA40/42
Diamond DA62
Airbus A-220-100
Dash-8
Otters
Beavers
Bell Helicopters

Anything Powered by a P&WC turbojet engine would be in trouble as well......
Click to expand...
No , they simply wont certify new Canadian planes until they certify Gulfstreams …. I believe Trumps larger point was that US is often getting screwed commercially via various tariffs and other means , as far as free markets are considered, and he was going to try to put an end to it and I guess thats another step in that direction - if these are all imaginary or factual complains ( or perhaps somewhere in between ) , I have no way of knowing ..
 
Someone better tell the Army.
U.S. Army plans to buy up to 11 customized Bombardier Global 6500 aircraft for its High Accuracy Detection and Exploitation System, or HADES, program.
 
JScarry said:
Someone better tell the Army.
U.S. Army plans to buy up to 11 customized Bombardier Global 6500 aircraft for its High Accuracy Detection and Exploitation System, or HADES, program.
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The DoD has no requirement to have current civilian airworthiness certs on military aircraft. It can chose to maintain the cert, but doesn't have to.
 
Can you obtain FAA certification on aircraft without an airworthiness certificate? I’m guessing no but have no idea.

Contractors will be expected to obtain FAA certification for modifications such as integrating “wing hard points, belly canoe, SATCOM cheek radome, and any Aerial-Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (A-ISR) capabilities,” the Army said.
 
asicer said:
Rotax is in the Bombardier family tree, no?
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It's complicated, apparently. Not owned by Bombardier, but by BRP, which was spun off completely and is a separate entity... though still mostly Canadian owned, I gather, and the Bombardier family (not corporation) owns a substantial share. So not actually made under the same corporate ownership as the airplanes. If Wikipedia is correct, anyway.
 
JScarry said:
Can you obtain FAA certification on aircraft without an airworthiness certificate? I’m guessing no but have no idea.

Contractors will be expected to obtain FAA certification for modifications such as integrating “wing hard points, belly canoe, SATCOM cheek radome, and any Aerial-Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (A-ISR) capabilities,” the Army said.
Click to expand...

The Army has the option of attempting to obtain FAA cert. It is not legally required to do so.

Edit: perhaps people are thinking "FAA cert" and "airworthiness cert" are not, in effect, the same thing.

The FAA doesn't certify military aircraft. The DoD certifies military aircraft.
 
AV8R_87 said:
Seems like WH staff is already in damage control mode: "...decertification announcement would only affect new planes..."
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That's not damage control, that's just sensible. As stated, it's not a safety thing, it's a political thing. So you can run what you have, just not buy more. I'm not saying that's reasonable, but from the perspective of them believing it's political, it makes sense.

As far as TC being understaffed/slow/whatever, it reminds me of the general description of country folks. If there's a reason for them to not work in your favor, they can just smile and pretend to care, all the while not moving at all toward what you think the goal should be.

Slightly on topic and a long time ago, I seem to remember that JFK made a call to some US airline that was going to buy one or more Concordes. More or less the conversation was one sided, and along the lines of "you know you need approval from the FAA to fly here, right?", and it stopped. This was from a Nova, I think, documentary a while back, not urban legend, but I don't remember the aircraft specifically.

Politics around imports/exports aren't new. To this day I don't think you can buy a pickup made in Europe, because of tariff in retaliation to a European tariff from the 60's.
 
JScarry said:
Can you obtain FAA certification on aircraft without an airworthiness certificate? I’m guessing no but have no idea.

Contractors will be expected to obtain FAA certification for modifications such as integrating “wing hard points, belly canoe, SATCOM cheek radome, and any Aerial-Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (A-ISR) capabilities,” the Army said.
Click to expand...
Why? A complete waste of money.
 
Albany Tom said:
Politics around imports/exports aren't new. To this day I don't think you can buy a pickup made in Europe, because of tariff in retaliation to a European tariff from the 60's.
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I’m sure that the car geeks on here know more about this than I do but I think you are referring to the infamous “Chicken Tax” – a 25% tariff imposed on light trucks (and vans) imported into the United States originally affecting just Europe but it also applies to imports from Japan and Korea but not Mexico and Canada. AFIK it’s still in effect.

For a while Volkswagen did sell a pickup truck (the Rabbit) but it evaded the tax by being made in Pennsylvania.
The Subaru Brat famously evaded the tax by putting seats in the cargo box.
Mercedes-Benz Sprinter and Ford Transit vans evaded the tax by being partially dissembled and the reassembled in the US.
There are probably other cases as well.
 
WhichWays_Up said:
While "FU USA" is definitely in force up here these days, I have sincere doubts it's causing delays at TC. TC certification department has like three employees and one broken coffee maker.....
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Then it shouldn't take them more than a minute to get that rubber stamp out and start stamping.

Tariffs are inherently political. They're a bad idea economically. They're economic protectionism and exist to alter incentives in an attempt to influence trade partners' behavior.

The current administration is using them the same way they've always been used, but more, and to greater effect.
 
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