Real-World Application of PPL/CPL Maneuvers

labbadabba

labbadabba

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So I did a proficiency flight that did not go so well:
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...nt-tho-maybe-i-should-be.102793/#post-2274792

The post raises a big question for me and I thought it deserved its own post. I went out to do some PPL-style maneuvers just for the sake of seeing how well I could still do them. One common piece of feedback in the thread was that I would be better off just flying X/C's rather than re-visiting maneuvers that I've already demonstrated on a checkride.

Do these maneuvers serve solely as a check of one's airmanship or can the continued practice of them keep flying skills sharper than flying on X/C adventures?
 
labbadabba said:
So I did a proficiency flight that did not go so well:

Do these maneuvers serve solely as a check of one's airmanship or can the continued practice of them keep flying skills sharper than flying on X/C adventures?
Click to expand...

All flying helps. Flying the same mission for hamburgers 50 miles away every other Saturday in calm wind CAVU conditions, probably not so much.
 
Where I fly I am always doing the basic maneuvers. Turns around a moose and rectangles to riverbeds. I think they help.


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labbadabba said:
Do these maneuvers serve solely as a check of one's airmanship or can the continued practice of them keep flying skills sharper than flying on X/C adventures?
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Take up gold prospecting and use your plane to scout for potential prospecting areas. You'll get plenty of slow flight, S-turns surveying ground, and banked turns on point practice when you locate good ground. If you have the aircraft for it, you can also practice short/soft field T/O's landings. Of course I've never had a lesson in my life, so WTF do I know. :dunno:
 
labbadabba said:
So I did a proficiency flight that did not go so well:
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...nt-tho-maybe-i-should-be.102793/#post-2274792

The post raises a big question for me and I thought it deserved its own post. I went out to do some PPL-style maneuvers just for the sake of seeing how well I could still do them. One common piece of feedback in the thread was that I would be better off just flying X/C's rather than re-visiting maneuvers that I've already demonstrated on a checkride.

Do these maneuvers serve solely as a check of one's airmanship or can the continued practice of them keep flying skills sharper than flying on X/C adventures?
Click to expand...

If you fly long cross country flights you will have opportunity to use all the maneuvers from the book. For example, instead of flying straight in ask for a downwind approach to practice turns. Instead of flying on the A/P the entire time, hand fly part of the time and do a few turns over a road just for grins. Make a game of it instead of a chunk of work. No need to practice stalls since those are done so a student can 'feel' what they are like, not to perfect them.
 
labbadabba:

I'm not an instructor - my perspective is that of a 30+ year private pilot. It's been a long time since I've been a newly-minted pilot, but I've recently watched my wife and son get their certificates. As I watched them progress, I had the opportunity to see how the maneuvers they were learning did or did not translate into my post-certificate flying. In my view, for whatever its worth, the maneuvers you learn both teach and test your ability to make the airplane do what you need it to do. My view, for whatever it is worth, is that what you learn in those maneuvers becomes second nature as you regularly fly the airplane. That's the point being made by several above. And that's true whether you are making a cross-country, or pointing out the moose to your friend. I wouldn't go back and practice those maneuvers, just for the sake of practice, unless there is some problem creeping up in your flying. For instance, if you often struggle to judge the base to final turn on windy days, maybe some ground reference maneuver practice is in order. Now, if you know you are going to need a skill that you haven't done in a while, like perhaps flying into a short field, and you haven't exercised that skill in a while, then maybe some practice is in order. (An important point here is that I'm specifically NOT talking about skills you may need in an emergency. Partial panel approaches, power off approaches, engine-out in a twin, etc. are all skills that I believe one should occasionally practice.) As you approach a BFR, think about areas that don't get exercised very often and suggest to the instructor that you brush up on those.

I think another point being made by those above and by those responding in the other thread, is that you just need to go up and have some fun. Maybe that's taking trips. Maybe it's sight-seeing. Maybe it's going for a $X dollar hamburger. Whatever it is, as long as you feel proficient, go enjoy doing what you've been trained to do.
 
labbadabba said:
So I did a proficiency flight that did not go so well:
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...nt-tho-maybe-i-should-be.102793/#post-2274792

The post raises a big question for me and I thought it deserved its own post. I went out to do some PPL-style maneuvers just for the sake of seeing how well I could still do them. One common piece of feedback in the thread was that I would be better off just flying X/C's rather than re-visiting maneuvers that I've already demonstrated on a checkride.

Do these maneuvers serve solely as a check of one's airmanship or can the continued practice of them keep flying skills sharper than flying on X/C adventures?
Click to expand...


Don't take this the wrong way, but your questioning the usefulness of the private and commercial maneuvers after a flight that didn't go so well sounds to me like a justification on why they didn't go well.

The maneuvers teach you how to make the airplane do what you want it to do. To break it down further, the private maneuvers teach you the basic handling of the airplane. The commercial maneuvers demonstrate that you can use a wider range of the flight envelope, and that your skills have improved since your private pilot checkride. Droning along for hours on a XC does nothing to sharpen those skills.

The XC practice sharpens other skills such as your navigation skills and dealing with other airport environments and airspace. It also helps with weather and flight planning decisions.

Ultimately, I think both the XC and the maneuvers have their place. Trying new types of flying and expanding your horizons also helps.
 
Aren't we required to demonstrate basic maneuvers during flight reviews? I had to do turns around a point and S-turns along a road during my last review. Seems like a good reason to practice to me. Speaking of which...
 
citizen5000 said:
For example, instead of flying straight in ask for a downwind approach to practice turns.
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Good idea. I haven't been practicing turns enough lately. Hopefully I still remember how to do them.
 
Kritchlow said:
CPL maneuvers are extremely important.
I cannot count the number of times ATC has asked me to perform a chandele to the left.
I have also, on the rare occasion, been asked to perform eights on pylons in lieu of a published hold.
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But aren't the pylons hard to see in IMC?


:D
 
N659HB said:
Aren't we required to demonstrate basic maneuvers during flight reviews? I had to do turns around a point and S-turns along a road during my last review. Seems like a good reason to practice to me. Speaking of which...
Click to expand...

Nothing is required in a BFR. And you can't flunk one.
 
dmspilot said:
Good idea. I haven't been practicing turns enough lately. Hopefully I still remember how to do them.
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Pattern turns TIGHT AND LOW TO THE GROUND. We did tons of them as students few of them always flying straight in.
 
I practice basic maneuvers every time I get checked out in a new plane.
 
I've always found the commercial maneuvers were to see how well you finesse the plane and do exactly what you want it to. I'm sure there are real world applications but for the most part the commercial license is about smoothness and getting the plane to do exactly what you want it to do.
 
I would tend to disagree with @citizen5000 regarding stalls...yes, one of the purposes of training and practicing stalls is to know what they feel like and therefore how to avoid them. The unfortunate thing is that it's very difficult to separate the stall setup and entry from the recovery, and like any emergency procedure, we need to periodically practice the recovery procedure. Inadvertent stalls happen, and if it ever happens to you, the recovery procedure needs to be second nature.

@cfitzgerald mentioned short field landings...honestly, while i enjoy the heck out of short field technique, and have used it fairly often in real life, I'd say the majority of pilots will never need it. But if you can consistently pick a touchdown spot and hit it without either excessive float or "forcing" the airplane, you'll be able to easily fly into airports that most pilots consider "short". You'll also have the skills to make the minor adjustments to speed and technique for a true short field landing.

Also, do you know how your ACTUAL takeoff and landing distances compare to "book" distances? I've known a lot of pilots over the years who say, "I'll never use a runway that's less than 150% of the book required runway so that I always have a safe margin." Many of them use techniques that end up requiring well over 150% of the book number....but since the runways they use always exceed even what they use, they don't realize it until they scare themselves on a shorter runway.

Most of the checkride maneuvers are there because SOMEBODY uses them (or a variation) in real life. It may not be you, but precision flying is always a worthy goal.
 
jordane93 said:
I've always found the commercial maneuvers were to see how well you finesse the plane and do exactly what you want it to. I'm sure there are real world applications but for the most part the commercial license is about smoothness and getting the plane to do exactly what you want it to do.
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Yes, they also add the third dimension to the maneuvers compared to private stuff. I can't think of many real world applications to lazy 8's (apart from them being fun)...
 
mtuomi said:
Isn't that a chandelle?
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A Chandelle has a much larger radius at the bottom for the same entry speed.

Adequate pitch-up initially (which most people don't actually do with Lazy 8s, I'll admit) will get rid of speed and make the turn radius smaller. Modifying the maneuver with more bank (60 degrees or more-like a wingover) will really tighten up the turn radius, but since it's not a constant altitude turn, you don't build up the load factor to cause stall issues.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
A Chandelle has a much larger radius at the bottom for the same entry speed.

Adequate pitch-up initially (which most people don't actually do with Lazy 8s, I'll admit) will get rid of speed and make the turn radius smaller. Modifying the maneuver with more bank (60 degrees or more-like a wingover) will really tighten up the turn radius, but since it's not a constant altitude turn, you don't build up the load factor to cause stall issues.
Click to expand...

Makes sense.
 
Kritchlow said:
CPL maneuvers are extremely important.
I cannot count the number of times ATC has asked me to perform a chandele to the left.
I have also, on the rare occasion, been asked to perform eights on pylons in lieu of a published hold.
Click to expand...

ROFLMAO. My 75 year old instructor would have also said that. And he's fairly critical of the Commercial maneuvers. "There's a whole lot of other things we could teach Commercial pilots that might actually keep them alive someday."

MauleSkinner said:
A Chandelle has a much larger radius at the bottom for the same entry speed.

Adequate pitch-up initially (which most people don't actually do with Lazy 8s, I'll admit) will get rid of speed and make the turn radius smaller. Modifying the maneuver with more bank (60 degrees or more-like a wingover) will really tighten up the turn radius, but since it's not a constant altitude turn, you don't build up the load factor to cause stall issues.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Also when discussing canyon turns it's not necessarily a climb maneuver if the aircraft is being forced down by a downdraft, it's a "lose the least altitude while getting the eff out of here" turn. So in that case, it looks very little like a Chandelle from the pilot's seat.

Been trying to think of how to simulate that and haven't come up with much that really does it. You know it the first time you need it, though!

Full rental power and use up whatever little bit of airspeed you might have and get it turned away from the rocks while losing the least altitude. May even want partial flaps in some airframes.
 
Kritchlow said:
CPL maneuvers are extremely important.
I cannot count the number of times ATC has asked me to perform a chandele to the left.
I have also, on the rare occasion, been asked to perform eights on pylons in lieu of a published hold.
Click to expand...
:D

Otoh, I have been asked to do S-turns and 360s for spacing (I always assume the idea of the 360 was to stay pretty much in one place even on a windy day).

And I have done turns around a point with the "point" being a wrecked battleship, a bridge, the top of Mt Hood, and other landmarks.


maui_wreck.jpg

"Turns around a battleship"
 
Did turns around a point using a blue whale between Palos Verdes and Catalina.
 
The point of ground reference maneuvers is to enable you to better handle the airplane in changing wind conditions, particularly those experienced in a traffic pattern. They have applicability in training and BFRs for those pilots who don't have or have lost an ability to properly account for the wind while flying straight courses and in turns where a consistent radius is necessary.

Commercial maneuvers are challenging. I have no problem with their existence even if they don't directly translate into a real world application. At minimum they stress properly handling the airplane at the minimums and maximums of the flight envelope, as well as smooth manipulation of the controls.
 
Harold Rutila said:
Commercial maneuvers are challenging. I have no problem with their existence even if they don't directly translate into a real world application. At minimum they stress properly handling the airplane at the minimums and maximums of the flight envelope, as well as smooth manipulation of the controls.
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I wouldn't call 30-40 degrees of bank "the maximums of the flight envelope". They're very careful to go nowhere near the maximum in the requirements.
 
For backcountry, photo stuff, hunting, you'll do stuff a lot like steep turns, ground ref, etc.

Stalls, slow flight relate directly with t/o and landing.
 
I do steep turns around a point fairly often. Standard photographic maneuver.

But the point of the maneuvers is mastering the airplane, not any exact action you might do. You never want to be anywhere near the limits of your skill set for any routine operation.
 
cfitzgerald said:
what you learn in those maneuvers becomes second nature as you regularly fly the airplane
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Exactly, steep turns, stalls, turns around a point really help give me a feel for the airplane. That's valuable reflexology to have when the workload goes up
 
Once I got my PPL, I spent the majority of my time flying XCs of 100-300nm. My concentration was on flight planning, use of ALL of my 430s capabilities, use of my autopilot, use of FF, basically all of the things that weren't serious parts of my PPL training. However, I dedicated one flight per month to doing all the maneuvers that had been taught to me in PPL, and I still do. Most of my actual flying is done with GPS, AP, and FF, mainly because it is about getting there in a safe and efficient manner. But I'm a firm believer in maintaining proficiency in the basics, simply because you never know when you might need them. And if you do, you're REALLY going to be glad you maintained your proficiency in them.
 
Rykymus said:
Once I got my PPL, I spent the majority of my time flying XCs of 100-300nm. My concentration was on flight planning, use of ALL of my 430s capabilities, use of my autopilot, use of FF, basically all of the things that weren't serious parts of my PPL training. However, I dedicated one flight per month to doing all the maneuvers that had been taught to me in PPL, and I still do. Most of my actual flying is done with GPS, AP, and FF, mainly because it is about getting there in a safe and efficient manner. But I'm a firm believer in maintaining proficiency in the basics, simply because you never know when you might need them. And if you do, you're REALLY going to be glad you maintained your proficiency in them.
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thats exactly what i plan on doing after PPL. i already got some experience of using PPL maneuvers in real world. took a buddy up flying and he HAD to take areal pictures of his house, did a turn around to the right, felt much more challenging than if you do it to left. avoided getting into cloud with steep turns, ATC made me do 360 at least 3 times to increase spacing, did shallow bank 180 degree turns to get out of cloud.
 
WannFly said:
thats exactly what i plan on doing after PPL. i already got some experience of using PPL maneuvers in real world. took a buddy up flying and he HAD to take areal pictures of his house, did a turn around to the right, felt much more challenging than if you do it to left. avoided getting into cloud with steep turns, ATC made me do 360 at least 3 times to increase spacing, did shallow bank 180 degree turns to get out of cloud.
Click to expand...

Why are you "in cloud" VFR at all? VFR cloud separation minimums? If ATC is telling you to fly into a cloud, say UNABLE / NO.
 
I don't really consider "turning the airplane" to be a PPL maneuver. That's just flying the airplane.
The only PP maneuver that I can think of that should be periodically practiced is stall recovery. The other stuff is just inherent to flying, and really are just drills to help you learn.

Obviously I was kidding earlier about ATC and commercial maneuvers.
I don't know what's required for the certificate today, but when I did it in 1886 there was one maneuver that I would consider safety related... steep spirals. I have no idea if those are in the CPL curriculum today.
I think the rest are garbage.
 
Mastery of the airplane takes practice. My personal practice priority is slow flight and maneuvers at MCA.
 
denverpilot said:
Why are you "in cloud" VFR at all? VFR cloud separation minimums? If ATC is telling you to fly into a cloud, say UNABLE / NO.
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It was dual instrument training, instead of hood went got IFR clearance and flew thru clouds. The 360 was in pattern to get those big boys in

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Kritchlow said:
I don't really consider "turning the airplane" to be a PPL maneuver. That's just flying the airplane.
The only PP maneuver that I can think of that should be periodically practiced is stall recovery. The other stuff is just inherent to flying, and really are just drills to help you learn.

Obviously I was kidding earlier about ATC and commercial maneuvers.
I don't know what's required for the certificate today, but when I did it in 1886 there was one maneuver that I would consider safety related... steep spirals. I have no idea if those are in the CPL curriculum today.
I think the rest are garbage.
Click to expand...
Damn you're old! And yes, steep spirals are still in the commercial PTS.
 
Kritchlow said:
I don't really consider "turning the airplane" to be a PPL maneuver. That's just flying the airplane.
The only PP maneuver that I can think of that should be periodically practiced is stall recovery. The other stuff is just inherent to flying, and really are just drills to help you learn.

Obviously I was kidding earlier about ATC and commercial maneuvers.
I don't know what's required for the certificate today, but when I did it in 1886 there was one maneuver that I would consider safety related... steep spirals. I have no idea if those are in the CPL curriculum today.
I think the rest are garbage.
Click to expand...
I did mine almost exactly 100 years after you did yours, and they were still in there. ;)
 
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