Practice approach at Class C

Mahneuvers

Mahneuvers

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Mahneuvers
The only plane to which I have access currently has ILS and VOR and non-WAAS GPS. As such, I have not flown an "in the system" IFR flight for fear ATC will give me an instruction difficult to comply with w/o GPS. I have remained current by shooting ILS approaches at uncontrolled airports. This weekend I will be transiting the airspace of Class C KGSO. Can I just call up Greensboro approach and request a “practice ILS approach” or do class C’s frown on such requests from VFR traffic?
 
That’s exactly what you should do/request, just remember it’ll be based on controller workload as to whether or not they can do it right then.
 
You can always request a practice approach. Worst they can say is no, most Class C's may be happy for the traffic count. Check the airport remarks to ensure there isn't any comment regarding practice approaches or training restrictions, but those are usually at busy Class B airports.

Why can't you use the non-WAAS GPS for IFR flight? non-WAAS just limits you from using LPV minimums on the approach, but does not preclude its use for navigation or approaches.
 
I also don't understand your reticence to use a non-WAAS GPS while IFR. It's perfectly legitimate and ATC won't know or care.

Now, if you really mean a "VFR-only" GPS, then that is an issue but you could still fly IFR. If ATC gives you a "proceed direct XXXXX" you just say "unable, can I get a vector", they give it to you and away you go.
 
midwestpa24 said:
...non-WAAS just limits you from using LPV minimums on the approach, but does not preclude its use for navigation or approaches...
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I'm sure I should have known that. I thought I couldn't use the GPS to, say, navigate to a fix.
 
Short answer. Absolutely. GSO controllers are awesome and almost always have time for a practice approach.
 
I recommend grabbing a good CFII that has actually flown a lot with different kinds of equipment and go over this kind of stuff. It IS confusing, but you should understand it. A lot of CFII's don't have a lot of real experience with different kinds of setups, so it's not their fault except that they didn't take the time to figure it out either.
 
eman1200 said:
u goin to MTV?
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Yep. I'm going to check out Simply Suzannes's on Sunday based on PoA recommendations. In addition to building time, I'm filling the club's coffers so they have no excuse but to install the GTN 650 they keep talking about :)
 
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MICHAEL MAHN said:
Yep. I'm going to check out Simply Suzannes's on Sunday based on PoA recommendations. In addition to building time, I'm filling the clubs coffers so they have no excuse but to install the GTN 650 they keep talking about :)
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SS will not disappoint! maybe I'll see u up there.
 
Salty said:
I recommend grabbing a good CFII...
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Agreed. I had a good CFII for my instrument rating but we did all of our flying in a WAAS plane so I'm ignorant on that topic. I'll call him.
 
eman1200 said:
SS will not disappoint! maybe I'll see u up there.
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Let me know if you go. We'll probably be there around 1:15. Given expected winds from the north, the plan is to hit ILS 34 @KAFP then ILS 5 @KGSO on the way up. My safety pilot is a fascinating young kid recently out of the Army who presents himself 20 years beyond his age.
 
MICHAEL MAHN said:
The only plane to which I have access currently has ILS and VOR and non-WAAS GPS. As such, I have not flown an "in the system" IFR flight for fear ATC will give me an instruction difficult to comply with w/o GPS. I have remained current by shooting ILS approaches at uncontrolled airports. This weekend I will be transiting the airspace of Class C KGSO. Can I just call up Greensboro approach and request a “practice ILS approach” or do class C’s frown on such requests from VFR traffic?
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I'd check Notams to make sure the ILS isn't down first. I didn't completed IR training, but these are techniques/items you should be aware of ...
 
MICHAEL MAHN said:
The only plane to which I have access currently has ILS and VOR and non-WAAS GPS. As such, I have not flown an "in the system" IFR flight for fear ATC will give me an instruction difficult to comply with w/o GPS. I have remained current by shooting ILS approaches at uncontrolled airports. This weekend I will be transiting the airspace of Class C KGSO. Can I just call up Greensboro approach and request a “practice ILS approach” or do class C’s frown on such requests from VFR traffic?
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That’s exactly what the controllers are there for, yes it does depend upon workload, but I do not remember ever being denied a practice approach. Pilots need to do practice approaches to remain current so it’s a very common request. I usually request approaches from class Bravo airspace’s too, and class Charlie is usually less busy than a Bravo. Non-Waas GPS is not an issue either, you can still shoot RNAV approaches, typically I request the approach that I want and whether I want to a certain fix, vectors or a hold.
 
I've shot practice approaches into class Bravo fields. As mentioned above, it's all about controller workload, but it can and should be done. The more you push yourself (within reason obviously) the less worried you'll be for the "real thing."
 
Workload is only part of the puzzle. While the controller might have time to provide the service (workload), higher priorities restrict what the controller can do.

Your practice approach shouldn’t be delaying other (higher priorities) VFR or IFR arrivals. Since the primary airport (GSO) must provide IFR sep to you conducting a VFR practice approach, they’ve got to plan for your arrival as essentially an IFR aircraft. So there’s a chance you might have to wait a bit until a sufficient gap occurs between you and other arrivals / departures. I don’t think GSO is crazy busy but just be patient and flexible.
 
I you filed /A, what possible instruction would ATC give that would be difficult to comply with?

Or are you saying you're rusty with VORs in general and want to go practice? Sounds like you found the path :D
 
If it's not too far off your path, you can also do practice ILS approaches at KHKY. ZTL used to have a Letter to Airmen advertising the service (not sure if they still do).
 
Up until a year ago, I often flew IFR with no gps what so ever...was never a problem (although you did have to pick your destination from those that had other-than-gps approaches). Don't fear what ATC gives you or does...this not a reason to treat them with nothing but respect, but they work for you, remember?
 
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MICHAEL MAHN said:
Let me know if you go. We'll probably be there around 1:15. Given expected winds from the north, the plan is to hit ILS 34 @KAFP then ILS 5 @KGSO on the way up. My safety pilot is a fascinating young kid recently out of the Army who presents himself 20 years beyond his age.
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I didn't make triple tree today so I'll try to hit MTV tomorrow about 1pm.
 
I would guess they’ll give it to you. I do practice approaches in Reno (also Class C) all the time.
 
Mahneuvers said:
I'm sure I should have known that. I thought I couldn't use the GPS to, say, navigate to a fix.
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I didn't think it was legal to NOT use the GPS to fly to a fix. :)

Sounds like you have an older GNS 430 non WAAS?
 
WDD said:
I didn't think it was legal to NOT use the GPS to fly to a fix. :)

Sounds like you have an older GNS 430 non WAAS?
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That's what he said. He thought he couldn't use a non-WAAS GPS to navigate to a fix. That misapprehension was corrected a while back in the thread.
 
The GPS in our club plane is a Garmin Aera. There is no DME. The ILS at KAFP is one of the approaches I've been using to maintain currency. The missed approach says to navigate to "NOMOE INT/I-AFP 9.9 DME and hold." I assume the "/" means I can legally identify the fix by either the radial intersection or the DME. I'm thinking I don't need DME for the approach to legally count...right? I planned to fly this approach tomorrow with another pilot and he questioned if the approach counts for currency.
 
Mahneuvers said:
The GPS in our club plane is a Garmin Aera. There is no DME. The ILS at KAFP is one of the approaches I've been using to maintain currency. The missed approach says to navigate to "NOMOE INT/I-AFP 9.9 DME and hold." I assume the "/" means I can legally identify the fix by either the radial intersection or the DME. I'm thinking I don't need DME for the approach to legally count...right? I planned to fly this approach tomorrow with another pilot and he questioned if the approach counts for currency.
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Yes, it just means it’s both an Intersection and a DME Fix. Having DME or not has nothing to do with currency requirements. How did you do that ‘the ILS at KAFP’ being the link to url thing? Someone was describing it in another thread and how to do it but what didn’t work for me.
 
luvflyin said:
...Having DME or not has nothing to do with currency requirements...
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The point the other pilot was making was an approach is not legal if the plane doesn't have all of the necessary equipment. I interpret the "/" in the MAP to mean you can use DME or the cross radial to identify NOMOE and therefore DME is not required to fly the procedure.

luvflyin said:
...How did you do that ‘the ILS at KAFP’ being the link to url thing?...
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Just copy the link you want to the clipboard, select the text you want to put the link behind, click this button upload_2022-5-14_11-45-2.pngat the top of the edit window then paste the copied URL into the dialog window.
 
WDD said:
I didn't think it was legal to NOT use the GPS to fly to a fix. :)

Sounds like you have an older GNS 430 non WAAS?
Click to expand...

midlifeflyer said:
That's what he said. He thought he couldn't use a non-WAAS GPS to navigate to a fix. That misapprehension was corrected a while back in the thread.
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The KLN94 is another one that doesn't have WAAS. There are still quite a few rental planes with those installed. The only problem I have had using one for direct to a fix is that the database didn't have the Moffett TACAN (I'm guessing due to memory size limitations). The missed approach for the Moffett ILS used to require that navaid, so I figured I couldn't fly that approach under IFR. (They have since changed the missed approach to use OAK VOR/DME instead.)
 
Mahneuvers said:
The point the other pilot was making was an approach is not legal if the plane doesn't have all of the necessary equipment. I interpret the "/" in the MAP to mean you can use DME or the cross radial to identify NOMOE and therefore DME is not required to fly the procedure.
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It is an "or". It's just telling you different possible ways to determine it. You only need one. It could be INT/DME/RADAR/OM, that's just a list of options.
 
Palmpilot said:
The KLN94 is another one that doesn't have WAAS. There are still quite a few rental planes with those installed. The only problem I have had using one for direct to a fix is that the database didn't have the Moffett TACAN (I'm guessing due to memory size limitations). The missed approach for the Moffett ILS used to require that navaid, so I figured I couldn't fly that approach under IFR. (They have since changed the missed approach to use OAK VOR/DME instead.)
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There are plenty. My flying club has a non-WAAS G1000.
 
I'm out of my depth here but there is non-WAAS GPS and then there is the Aera. The ILS MAP at KAFP I mentioned requires navigating to NOMOE. I cannot legally use the Area to do that. Compounding matters, the CTF VOR was NOTAMed out of service yesterday. So, for my flight tomorrow, I cannot use that approach for currency. Our club plane gets a GTN 650 next month and and it cannot happen fast enough.
 
Mahneuvers said:
I'm out of my depth here but there is non-WAAS GPS and then there is the Aera. The ILS MAP at KAFP I mentioned requires navigating to NOMOE. I cannot legally use the Area to do that. Compounding matters, the CTF VOR was NOTAMed out of service yesterday. So, for my flight tomorrow, I cannot use that approach for currency. Our club plane gets a GTN 650 next month and and it cannot happen fast enough.
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I’m not quite sure what you mean by “…for currency…” Far as I know, if you do the Approach and are in the goo or under the hood you can use it to count for currency. As far as CTF being off the air, you can’t do the Approach at all unless you have DME or an authorized substitute. I don’t know if you’re Aera is. I do not think WAAS is required to substitute GPS for DME.
 
When you use the term "non-WAAS", do you mean "non-approved"? Your query makes much more sense to me if that's what you mean. From what I'm hearing, it sounds like you are talking about an airplane with conventional nav, no DME, and an Aera unit. So it is a "\U" equipped airplane, equipment-wise. Although fewer in number, you can still fly IFR and there are still approaches you can do in a \U equipped airplane. Although technically, the Aera may be able to give you guidance to waypoints, you legally cannot declare the ability to do that. I've never used an Aera but I doubt it has approaches or approach waypoints in it's database, so you may not even "pretend" to do an RNAV approach. So, just use the for non-DME, conventional approaches. (Use the Aera for situational awareness). As long as you do them at airports that have such approaches, what's wrong with that?

FWIW, WAAS is not a term that means the unit is approved. Both WAAS and non-WAAS units are FAA approved. Although I doubt there is a WAAS unit that is not approved. Approval is something else entirely. If you don't know what WAAS means, I'm sure a bunch of people will fill you in.
 
noahfong said:
When you use the term "non-WAAS", do you mean "non-approved"?
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I guess that's a good question since if one equates "non-WAAS" with "non-approved" there's a basic lack of knowledge involved.
noahfong said:
Although I doubt there is a WAAS unit that is not approved
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I think the Garmin Glo and GPS receivers available for Stratux have WAAS capability.
 
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