Pop Up IFR Clearance

Princesspilot206

Princesspilot206

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Princesspilot
Do you subscribe to the notion that a pop up IFR clearance is acceptable to use on a consistent basis? Or does is show poor planning and use of the feature. Yesterday I had a crazy flight (to me) where the person I was flying with insists on flying everywhere VFR and then will pull out the pop up IFR request out of their back pocket when they need it. Even though they are a CFII. There were so many unnecessary headaches with it that I find it better and more prudent of me to plan and file on the ground. Especially in these spring/summer months when clouds pop up like this unwanted zit on my face.
 
If it wasn't allowable, the FAA wouldn't allow it :).

I usually will go ahead and file, then fly VFR unless I have to. That way it's a little easier than doing a pop-up. That makes it easier in the cockpit for me, but that's just my preference.
 
I find flying ifr to be easier anyway, so i generally just file unless I'm staying local or have a compelling reason to stay vfr. My experience with getting pop up clearances from a 1200 code is poor. Usually when you need one, so does everybody else, and the frequency is too busy. Filing with flight service in the air can be a real pain.

Pro tip: get flight following first. That makes it very easy for them to make you ifr because you're already in the system. That works 97% of the time. I usually wait until the next controller after I get tagged up so it's not so obvious ;).
 
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Second the comment about FF. I've found the transition to IFR clearance from flight following relatively seamless. Haven't flown GA since I sold in '23, so in fairness most of the times I use a pop up these days is in the work plane, and only because Lt. helmet fuego in the front seat cancelled IFR cuz he's mentally still at the step desk. And Of course, gets immediately socked in by the undercast during MVFR 6-9 seconds after cancelling. :biggrin:
 
As long as your have ceilings enough to stay VMC long enough, sure

Also make sure you’re not going somewhere you’d expect a EDCT
 
Princesspilot206 said:
Do you subscribe to the notion that a pop up IFR clearance is acceptable to use on a consistent basis? Or does is show poor planning and use of the feature. Yesterday I had a crazy flight (to me) where the person I was flying with insists on flying everywhere VFR and then will pull out the pop up IFR request out of their back pocket when they need it. Even though they are a CFII. There were so many unnecessary headaches with it that I find it better and more prudent of me to plan and file on the ground. Especially in these spring/summer months when clouds pop up like this unwanted zit on my face.
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Unnecessary headaches? Nope.

The suggestions here to first be receiving VFR advisories then requesting a popup when needed are routine and commonplace for both pilots, and the controllers granting them.... seamless is the correct term.

I would suggest not departing VFR into marginal weather, deliberately pointed into worsening weather with the full intent of asking for a popup. That's a little selfish, and not the intent of a popup.

If you're heading into a busy metropolitian area during push hours and the weather at your destination turns marginal (or worse), don't wait until being handed off to the ATC sector that's working aircraft approaching it. Pick it up earlier where the frequency likely to be much less busy.

It's been a long time since I was refused a popup (probably only once). Back in the 1980's, just outside of Class Bravo airspace (back then called a TCA). The busy controller instructed me to remain clear of the TCA, contact FSS (Flight Service), and air file. I did, and it was a real PITA. Learned a good lesson.

IMO, when the weather is beautiful VFR (end to end), unless you're a fairly new instrument rated pilot and need some practice or familiarity flying IFR in the system, don't file. I find VFR advisories in and around big cities provide shorter distances, a better choice of altitudes, and excellent traffic call-outs. Seems (to me) that ATC appreciates it.

A lot of GA pilots believe filing IFR and flying in clear and 100 is safer. I don't totally agree. More IFR flights contribute to ATC workload, making VFR Flight Following less effective.

Flying IFR at times is only providing separation from other IFR traffic. You still need to look out the windows.
 
I don’t think it necessarily reflects bad
Princesspilot206 said:
Or does is show poor planning and use of the feature
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I don’t think it necessarily indicates poor planning. If one does it consistently, it may be the plan. Cold call “local IFR” might even be the best choice in some areas. If already in VFR flight following, it can also be easy.

That said, I’ve done pop-ups maybe a half dozen times, but only once as part of the initial plan. And unless you are in one of those areas where “local IFR” is common, I don’t think it makes much sense as a plan anymore. Too easy to file. Just pick an airport where you plan to call as the departure airport. Too many busy areas where a pop up call will result in, “unable. Contact Flight Service.” Places where, since the Center computer requires it, you’ll need to be prepared to give at least the minimum ICAO information rather than a simple, “we’re /G.”
 
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Rick A said:
Unnecessary headaches? Nope.

The suggestions here to first be receiving VFR advisories then requesting a popup when needed are routine and commonplace for both pilots, and the controllers granting them.... seamless is the correct term.

I would suggest not departing VFR into marginal weather, deliberately pointed into worsening weather with the full intent of asking for a popup. That's a little selfish, and not the intent of a popup.

If you're heading into a busy metropolitian area during push hours and the weather at your destination turns marginal (or worse), don't wait until being handed off to the ATC sector that's working aircraft approaching it. Pick it up earlier where the frequency likely to be much less busy.

It's been a long time since I was refused a popup (probably only once). Back in the 1980's, just outside of Class Bravo airspace (back then called a TCA). The busy controller instructed me to remain clear of the TCA, contact FSS (Flight Service), and air file. I did, and it was a real PITA. Learned a good lesson.

IMO, when the weather is beautiful VFR (end to end), unless you're a fairly new instrument rated pilot and need some practice or familiarity flying IFR in the system, don't file. I find VFR advisories in and around big cities provide shorter distances, a better choice of altitudes, and excellent traffic call-outs. Seems (to me) that ATC appreciates it.

A lot of GA pilots believe filing IFR and flying in clear and 100 is safer. I don't totally agree. More IFR flights contribute to ATC workload, making VFR Flight Following less effective.

Flying IFR at times is only providing separation from other IFR traffic. You still need to look out the windows.
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That is a good point

I always file IFR, even if I’m not even going to get VFR flight following, it’s just so much easier to grab if if it’s already in the system, they already have the route, SOB, FOB, etc.

Plus it’s free and I can do it on my phone in the time it takes be to walk to the plane. Zero downsides really
 
Princesspilot206 said:
Do you subscribe to the notion that a pop up IFR clearance is acceptable to use on a consistent basis? Or does is show poor planning and use of the feature. Yesterday I had a crazy flight (to me) where the person I was flying with insists on flying everywhere VFR and then will pull out the pop up IFR request out of their back pocket when they need it. Even though they are a CFII. There were so many unnecessary headaches with it that I find it better and more prudent of me to plan and file on the ground. Especially in these spring/summer months when clouds pop up like this unwanted zit on my face.
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Coming from a CFII, I also like to fly VFR about every where. But, I also understand that controllers have to maintain separation. One has to be prepared for squak #### remain VFR and having to keep that ATC instruction a lot longer than one would like.

VFR on top is also an IFR option.
 
I guess my question would be, what is making a pop up IFR necessary “on a consistent basis”?
 
MauleSkinner said:
I guess my question would be, what is making a pop up IFR necessary “on a consistent basis”?
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Location


Some places you can not depart IFR like you can on a mile plus paved runway with facilities

Can’t tell you how many times I’ve filed from a radial DME because there was no identifier for the strip


Time

Opposite is true too, in some busy airspace you’ll be there all week if you depart in the system, vs getting out VFR and then once clear of the mess pulling IFR TEB is a good example here
 
decalogue said:
Location


Some places you can not depart IFR like you can on a mile plus paved runway with facilities

Can’t tell you how many times I’ve filed from a radial DME because there was no identifier for the strip


Time

Opposite is true too, in some busy airspace you’ll be there all week if you depart in the system, vs getting out VFR and then once clear of the mess pulling IFR TEB is a good example here
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Those sound more like getting a “pop-up VFR” for an IFR flight than a VFR flight with a pop up IFR.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Those sound more like getting a “pop-up VFR” for an IFR flight than a VFR flight with a pop up IFR.
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Fair enough, another one that came to mind

At an old job of mine we flew a visual route, but during certain months we would have a common cloud layer towards destination, we’d get a pop up from our altitude to MVA somewhat regularly, worked beautifully, safe and saved time over flying it IFR and going out further to do the IAP
 
Princesspilot206 said:
Do you subscribe to the notion that a pop up IFR clearance is acceptable to use on a consistent basis? Or does is show poor planning and use of the feature. Yesterday I had a crazy flight (to me) where the person I was flying with insists on flying everywhere VFR and then will pull out the pop up IFR request out of their back pocket when they need it. Even though they are a CFII. There were so many unnecessary headaches with it that I find it better and more prudent of me to plan and file on the ground. Especially in these spring/summer months when clouds pop up like this unwanted zit on my face.
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Stop flying with them seems an easy solution...
 
decalogue said:
Fair enough, another one that came to mind

At an old job of mine we flew a visual route, but during certain months we would have a common cloud layer towards destination, we’d get a pop up from our altitude to MVA somewhat regularly, worked beautifully, safe and saved time over flying it IFR and going out further to do the IAP
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I understand where pop up IFR is useful. My question was directed more to the specifics of the OP’s situation.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I understand where pop up IFR is useful. My question was directed more to the specifics of the OP’s situation.
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Flying around VFR is nice for a multitude of reasons, fun, scenery, mission not matching ATC requirements for it being IFR, not enough info

She mentions the person is a CFII, if they were giving her dual, doing that VFR is MUCH easier than on a IFR.

She also doesn’t mention what the headache was, nor her experience, what may seem like a headache to an inexperienced pilot can seem a complete no factor to someone else.
 
decalogue said:
Flying around VFR is nice for a multitude of reasons, fun, scenery, mission not matching ATC requirements for it being IFR, not enough info

She mentions the person is a CFII, if they were giving her dual, doing that VFR is MUCH easier than on a IFR.

She also doesn’t mention what the headache was, nor her experience, what may seem like a headache to an inexperienced pilot can seem a complete no factor to someone else.
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She also has the ability to speak for herself with specifics rather than speculation if she so chooses.
 
This conversation reminds me of a story I read about the corporate jet that was obviously going to fly long distances at flight levels. It took off VFR and asked for the popup IFR immediately after takeoff.
 
Regarding the OP's concerns, the CFII is displaying use of a procedure that could be very useful to her at some point in the future... whether she realizes it, or not.

On the flip side of learning how to pick up an IFR pop up clearance, there's also knowledge to be obtained by learning it's OK to cancel an IFR clearance (and go VFR) when the pilot desires a deviation, and ATC is unable (or unwilling) to work out something the pilot determines is safer and more acceptable. Which IMO is a more useful and more likely to be used procedure to learn is totally acceptable with ATC.

I've heard too many IFR aircraft on the radio fly into weather, loose visual contact within an area of building weather, and then request they be immediately handled and vectored somewhere else. When plenty of VMC is located below the controller's MVA. Plus, the controller often seamlessly offers Flight Following services once the IFR is cancelled and the plane is confirmed to be in the clear.
 
rockyfatcat said:
This conversation reminds me of a story I read about the corporate jet that was obviously going to fly long distances at flight levels. It took off VFR and asked for the popup IFR immediately after takeoff.
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Common practice, same with filing to a different airport and breaking off to go destination VFR with EDICs etc

Lots of differences between how the inexperienced CFII teaches and how it’s actually done
 
rockyfatcat said:
This conversation reminds me of a story I read about the corporate jet that was obviously going to fly long distances at flight levels. It took off VFR and asked for the popup IFR immediately after takeoff.
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Are you sure they were getting a pop-up vs just picking up an already filed IFR? I do the latter regularly in areas where I know there's not a lot of frequency congestion.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Second the comment about FF. I've found the transition to IFR clearance from flight following relatively seamless.
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Depends where you are. Out in the midwest, I can get away with (while on flight following):

27K: Indy Center, looks like it's going to be IFR ahead. Could I get IFR @ 6000.
ZIN: Navion 5327K, Indy Center. Cleared to Culpeper via Direct. Maintain 6000.

On the other hand Boston approach sent me to FSS and then I had to wait around on frequency until they got the clearance back. And the eventual clearance was your typical NE hodgepodge that started with going 90 degrees perpendicular to course for 100 miles.
Another glitch was trying to pick up an IFR south of Chicago on an Airventure departure.
 
Princesspilot206 said:
Do you subscribe to the notion that a pop up IFR clearance is acceptable to use on a consistent basis?
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Acceptable, yes. Except...
Princesspilot206 said:
Or does is show poor planning and use of the feature.
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When employed due to the pilot's failure to comply with the requirements of 91.103(a).

One strategy that I did not find mentioned among the other responses here is the use of a composite flight plan.
Princesspilot206 said:
...clouds pop up like this unwanted zit on my face.
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Great simile, but, is there such a thing as a wanted zit?
 
I've been flying IFR and heard Boston Approach deny a pop-up from someone who asked for one, "Say intentions..."
 
I have a related question that I've never been entirely clear about. If I file a long x-c IFR plan from my origin airport to destination, and then try to activate it halfway through the flight (assume I've crossed into another approach sector by this point), can the controller actually find my flight plan? Or will they input a new plan from scratch to issue the clearance? In other words, if the origin airport is far behind my present position, can I still get the original plan activated?
 
AlleyCat67 said:
I have a related question that I've never been entirely clear about. If I file a long x-c IFR plan from my origin airport to destination, and then try to activate it halfway through the flight (assume I've crossed into another approach sector by this point), can the controller actually find my flight plan? Or will they input a new plan from scratch to issue the clearance? In other words, if the origin airport is far behind my present position, can I still get the original plan activated?
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So you filed, never picked it up, never got a transponder code, never got an clearance void time... I'd guess they'd ignore it after 30 minutes after your filed departure time? I can't see why they'd hold the airspace for you if you never picked up the clearance.

Its probably detailed in the AIM 5-2-* section.
 
decalogue said:
Location


Some places you can not depart IFR like you can on a mile plus paved runway with facilities

Can’t tell you how many times I’ve filed from a radial DME because there was no identifier for the strip
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That needs clarification of the term "pop-up."

From an ATC standpoint, the 7110 refers to "pop up" as an aircraft with a filed IFR flight plan which picks up the clearance in the air.​
Most pilots use it to refer to a cold call request for a clearance or a transition from flight following to IFR. (That's why I choose to use the term "cold call" for the latter.​
 
AlleyCat67 said:
I have a related question that I've never been entirely clear about. If I file a long x-c IFR plan from my origin airport to destination, and then try to activate it halfway through the flight (assume I've crossed into another approach sector by this point), can the controller actually find my flight plan? Or will they input a new plan from scratch to issue the clearance? In other words, if the origin airport is far behind my present position, can I still get the original plan activated?
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If it hasn't timed out, they can find it but they might have to work at it.

Filed flight plans generally go three places. ARTCC, Departure airport Tower (if towered), and the radar facility that would be handling it. Adjoining TRACONs also get it, especially if they are near a border. If it's outside the TRACON of your filed departure airport or an adjoining TRACON (may even need to be in the same Center, but I'm not completely sure of that), they won't have it just sitting there in front of them.

If you know you are going to pick up your IFR around a certain time and in a certain area, your best bet is to use an airport in that area as your destination departure. SOP for this used to be filing a VOR but, aside from them disappearing, I have heard controllers say why not use an airport rather than some random fix.
 
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Of course, a few years ago I was on my way to Oshkosh getting services from MKE approach.

27K: Looks like Oskosh is IFR. Can I get a clearance from you or do I need to go to flight circus?
MKE: (audible sigh over the radio, like "It's starting already.") Are you rated and equipped?
27K: Affirmative.
MKE: OK, cleared direct to Oshkosh. Maintain 3000. Expect the VOR 9 approach.
27K: How about the RNAV 9?
MKE: OK, expect that.

It was interesting breaking out at about 900 OVC over the show. First time I ever did that.
 
My favorite was a two facility popup. I was returning to Denver from the Western Slope of Colorado. VFR and clear as usual, but as I got closer, I found that the metro Denver area was socked in. I figured no way Denver Approach wants to deal with a cold call popup when the Bravo is handling IFR traffic. So, shuttling back and forth along Rollins Pass, I called Center and asked if they could help work out a clearance for me.

Center asked me to stand by. A few minutes later, "Proceed to Jeffco VOR above 10,000'. Contact Denver TRACON over the VOR. They'll have your clearance."
 
UngaWunga said:
So you filed, never picked it up, never got a transponder code, never got an clearance void time... I'd guess they'd ignore it after 30 minutes after your filed departure time? I can't see why they'd hold the airspace for you if you never picked up the clearance.
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Not 30 minutes, 2 hours after proposed departure time...
I believe it's visible 30 minuted prior to proposed departure time.
 
rockyfatcat said:
This conversation reminds me of a story I read about the corporate jet that was obviously going to fly long distances at flight levels. It took off VFR and asked for the popup IFR immediately after takeoff.
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I think you are referring to this one where there wa a breakdown in communication between ground and tower.
 
UngaWunga said:
So you filed, never picked it up, never got a transponder code, never got an clearance void time... I'd guess they'd ignore it after 30 minutes after your filed departure time? I can't see why they'd hold the airspace for you if you never picked up the clearance.
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The don't hold airspace for you for even a millisecond if they haven't issued you a clearance. "Issued you a clearance" means using the words "Cleared to" while in direct communication with you.

As already mentioned, your clearance is available from 30 minutes before until two hours after your filed departure time. "Available" just means retrievable. Whether a specific facility is using paper or electronic strips and whether they keep a collection until the two hours are up is a different story.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That needs clarification of the term "pop-up."

From an ATC standpoint, the 7110 refers to "pop up" as an aircraft with a filed IFR flight plan which picks up the clearance in the air.​
Most pilots use it to refer to a cold call request for a clearance or a transition from flight following to IFR. (That's why I choose to use the term "cold call" for the latter.​
Click to expand...

Indeed, cold call and nothing on file is silly in the age of foreflight on your phone
 
midlifeflyer said:
If it hasn't timed out, they can find it but they might have to work at it.

Filed flight plans generally go three places. ARTCC, Departure airport Tower (if towered), and the radar facility that would be handling it. Adjoining TRACONs also get it, especially if they are near a border. If it's outside the TRACON of your filed departure airport or an adjoining TRACON (may even need to be in the same Center, but I'm not completely sure of that), they won't have it just sitting there in front of them.

If you know you are going to pick up your IFR around a certain time and in a certain area, your best bet is to use an airport in that area as your destination departure. SOP for this used to be filing a VOR but, aside from them disappearing, I have heard controllers say why not use an airport rather than some random fix.
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Thanks - that answers my question. I’ve filed using an intermediate fix several times and that works well. But there are times when it’s hard to predict where/when the clouds will appear, and it’s nice to have the option to fly as much of the route as possible VFR, and then get the clearance wherever it becomes necessary.
 
I'm in the camp of Why not IFR File? Even if you're VMC, having ATC keep on eye on fast moving traffic coming up your back, or getting your through C airspace is worth it.

VFR XC is for "un sociable people who don't like talking to others" :p
 
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