Plane crashes off Boca Raton

Twinkie?
…..yes it’s a small piper twin
 
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Excellent job on the off-airport landing!!! If the pilot is here on PoA or anyone knows them, do tell them they did a great job.

And always in "learning mode" it is always great to hear what actually happened and what the reason was that a twin couldn't limp back to an airport. (Similar question with the twin that landed on the the road.)
 
Hard to see from the videos if the props were turning. Weather looked decent. Fuel management?
 
Three of my airport SUA runways had a good chunk of water straight off them. That was always my landing area if needed.

Never liked BCT or FXE for take offs.
 
sarangan said:
It is a twin comanche
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Short of air-contaminated tanks, what kind of failure would result in a twin having to perform such a well-controlled ditching?

It didn't land at Boca Raton, right? So it's not a case of someone thought it was a King Air and put Jet A in it.
 
M20K said:
Excellent job on the off-airport landing!!! If the pilot is here on PoA or anyone knows them, do tell them they did a great job.

And always in "learning mode" it is always great to hear what actually happened and what the reason was that a twin couldn't limp back to an airport. (Similar question with the twin that landed on the the road.)
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From what I heard, the story is lost an engine, flying single engine, ok, but then couldn’t lower the gear and thought with fuel aboard a belly landing on runway was a fire hazard hence went for the water. I can see the rationality in this though such really isn’t the case and belly landing on the airport tends to be better than ditching.
 
Fffflats said:
From what I heard, the story is lost an engine, flying single engine, ok, but then couldn’t lower the gear and thought with fuel aboard a belly landing on runway was a fire hazard hence went for the water. I can see the rationality in this though such really isn’t the case and belly landing on the airport tends to be better than ditching.
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www.local10.com

Crews remove small plane after pilot survives crashing into shallow ocean off Boca Raton beach

Beachgoers had a story to tell on Sunday after they witnessed how a pilot crash landed a Piper PA30 series twin-engine propeller plane at 9:40 a.m. on Saturday into the shallow sea off the beach in Boca Raton.
www.local10.com www.local10.com
 
ateamer said:
So declare, pick an airport that has CFR, circle until the equipment is in place, and land on the runway.
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As someone who's thought about the scenario, absolutely. But if you haven't thought about it, or been coached through it (who did her multi and complex training?), not understanding the facts could lead you to this. I do wonder how they had an engine and gear problem at the same time and didn't choose to troubleshoot until they were low on fuel.
 
ateamer said:
So declare, pick an airport that has CFR, circle until the equipment is in place, and land on the runway.
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Or circle until you are low on fuel and then land. That also gets you lots of extra time to trouble shoot, call a mechanic, etc... There must have been some other time pressure to land. Perhaps smoke in the cockpit, which would make sense since the landing gear pump is electric.
 
Are airframes that are dunked for a couple days in the ocean permanently damaged or can they be brought back 100%? I assume that all electrical components/anionics are trash.
 
There has to be more to this story.

Wearing a bikini with a cover-up to pick up parents in another country? Bikinis are what we wear to go flying these days?

One motor fails you can't fly it single engine? It's just you and fuel so you are well below MTOW.

Gear won't come down and you can't manually extend?

Maybe this is all there is but it has me wondering. Glad no fatalities and everyone lives to fly another day.
 
GLMS_NC said:
Wearing a bikini with a cover-up
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Do you know for a fact she is wearing a bikini? Or was she possibly wearing some sort of heavy bulky cargo type pants she ditched when she got in the ocean so she could swim?

ADDED: Okay... so per the interview from Peter Busch that @GLMS_NC posted, I get that I was wrong... It was a long skirt, not cargo pants. :p :cool:
 
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Brad Smith said:
Are airframes that are dunked for a couple days in the ocean permanently damaged or can they be brought back 100%? I assume that all electrical components/anionics are trash.
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I would imagine it's totaled. Probably suffered a lot of damage in recovery. I'd be really surprised if it flew again. I would like to know TT in model?
 
What a bizarre story. Insurance job? Just a clueless pilot? A desire for attention?

I can't imagine thinking that ditching in the water is somehow better than just landing gear-up (and even then, who flies a retractable without knowing how to put the gear down!?)

I've landed gear-up in an Arrow when one of the mains physically jammed into the well and couldn't even be freed with the emergency extension, zero-g pushovers etc. At no point did I think about going off and finding a lake to ditch in :D
 
Katamarino said:
What a bizarre story. Insurance job? Just a clueless pilot? A desire for attention?

I can't imagine thinking that ditching in the water is somehow better than just landing gear-up (and even then, who flies a retractable without knowing how to put the gear down!?)

I've landed gear-up in an Arrow when one of the mains physically jammed into the well and couldn't even be freed with the emergency extension, zero-g pushovers etc. At no point did I think about going off and finding a lake to ditch in :D
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She is 23. I think her logic is fine, given her inexperience.
 
No one injured. Isn't that a good outcome? The airplane condition is unimportant correct? Also she didn't shut down a runway or an entire airport.
 
Katamarino said:
What a bizarre story. Insurance job? Just a clueless pilot? A desire for attention?

I can't imagine thinking that ditching in the water is somehow better than just landing gear-up (and even then, who flies a retractable without knowing how to put the gear down!?)
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I don't know that I'd have made that call, but her logic is not totally off.

Lots of sparks with a belly landing and full fuel... hmmm... no chance of fire there if she. Or, what if she gets a gust and dips a wing and cartwheels, again with lots of fuel... hmmm... no chance of fire there either. (I could go on..)

Yes, lots of people belly in with no issues. But, who knows what the last video or story she read about on a place like PoA was.
 
Katamarino said:
What a bizarre story. Insurance job? Just a clueless pilot? A desire for attention?

I can't imagine thinking that ditching in the water is somehow better than just landing gear-up (and even then, who flies a retractable without knowing how to put the gear down!?)

I've landed gear-up in an Arrow when one of the mains physically jammed into the well and couldn't even be freed with the emergency extension, zero-g pushovers etc. At no point did I think about going off and finding a lake to ditch in :D
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Were you single engine at the time? I doubt that Twinkie flys very good single engine and the gear down.
 
Brad Smith said:
Are airframes that are dunked for a couple days in the ocean permanently damaged or can they be brought back 100%? I assume that all electrical components/anionics are trash.
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One of my boats sank and was recovered after 3 days. The damage was impressive. Even if that airframe is not trashed during recovery, I cannot imagine it would be worthwhile to make airworthy again.

Looked like perfect conditions for ditching on the beach.
 
ateamer said:
Anyone know what the emergency gear extension procedure is for a Twin Comanch
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To execute an emergency landing gear extension on a Piper PA-30 Twin Comanche, reduce power to keep airspeed at or below 100 MPH, place the gear selector switch in the "GEAR DOWN" position, disengage the electric motor via the release arm, and use the manual extension handle to full forward travel until locked.
 
Brad Smith said:
Are airframes that are dunked for a couple days in the ocean permanently damaged or can they be brought back 100%? I assume that all electrical components/anionics are trash.
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Technically, they can be brought back 100% and there are a number of examples still flying. However, it is heavily dependent on the insurance carrier, aircraft type, and location whether it is economically feasible. At the commercial level where operators tend to be self-insured and/or have the facilities you'll see aircraft like turbine helicopters and Twin Otters get rebuilt after a dunk in the saltwater. But at the Part 91 level on an older airframe like here, the insurance will usually total it before you hang the phone up.
 
Lindberg said:
What's her inexperience? She's Comm ASEL/AMEL IR and has a Citation type rating. For how long does one get to claim inexperience as the reason for not knowing normal emergency procedures?
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Seems that aircraft was in the family for a very long time. She may have hundreds of hours in it for all we know.

Looking at the manual gear down sequence it seems rather complicated in getting that gear disconnected by that lever that needs to be flipped then a bar inserted to push gear down. Not as easy as a pump down or open a valve and let gear free fall.

My mooney had a cable that had to be pulled many times to ratchet it down.
Never tested as I believe it could cause the gear return spring breaking which renders the gear stuck. Mechanic never tested it and convinced its not required.

Always figured if it didn’t work just land gear up. Pilots do it daily without fatalities.
 
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MountainDude said:
She is 23. I think her logic is fine, given her inexperience.
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She is not particularly inexperienced, as mentioned above. It was very weird ADM.

M20K said:
I don't know that I'd have made that call, but her logic is not totally off.

Lots of sparks with a belly landing and full fuel... hmmm... no chance of fire there if she. Or, what if she gets a gust and dips a wing and cartwheels, again with lots of fuel... hmmm... no chance of fire there either. (I could go on..)

Yes, lots of people belly in with no issues. But, who knows what the last video or story she read about on a place like PoA was.
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There is pretty much no more chance of a fire or cartwheel with a gear-up landing than there is with a normal landing. Some of those who haven't landed gear-up seem to think it is some kind of big deal, but it is an absolute non-event, it's just a normal landing a foot or two lower than usual.

There is much greater chance of stuffing up a ditching, and a ditching will always be far more violent than a gear-up landing on a runway. Have you been through a ditching simulator course? There's no way I would choose that if I had a big runway with emergency equipment just minutes away - not to mention less risk to people on the ground (well, in the water).

Mikey52 said:
Were you single engine at the time? I doubt that Twinkie flys very good single engine and the gear down.
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Not very relevant - she never put the gear down.

Ditching decision aside, it's odd to have an electrical failure and engine failure at once. The aircraft should have two alternators. Multiple failures at once - or a decision to skip checks, or knowingly fly with mechanical issues?
 
Katamarino said:
There is pretty much no more chance of a fire or cartwheel with a gear-up landing than there is with a normal landing.
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Okay, cartwheel may not be the best term. But with the gear down a little lift on one side and dip on the other is no big deal since the wingtip is still starting off a few feet above the ground. If you get a dip when the wing is only a foot or inches above the, there is a chance it catches and then all bets are off if it just slides along until the fuselage settles or it catches and all hell breaks loose.
 
bonefishpete said:
Seems that aircraft was in the family for a very long time. She may have hundreds of hours in it for all we know.

Looking at the manual gear down sequence it seems rather complicated in getting that gear disconnected by that lever that needs to be flipped then a bar inserted to push gear down. Not as easy as a pump down or open a valve and let gear free fall.

My mooney had a cable that had to be pulled many times to ratchet it down.
Never tested as I believe it could cause the gear return spring breaking which renders the gear stuck. Mechanic never tested it and convinced its not required.

Always figured if it didn’t work just land gear up. Pilots do it daily without fatalities.
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I got my commercial cert in an M20J. I did the emergency extension procedure twice in training. That CFI had all of his commercial students do the same. They didn’t have any problems with the gear system.
 
ateamer said:
I got my commercial cert in an M20J. I did the emergency extension procedure twice in training. That CFI had all of his commercial students do the same. They didn’t have any problems with the gear system.
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Same here in my Bonanza - BUT:

How easy is it to extend that gear manually while simultaneously flying a twin with one engine out? That might have been a bigger risk.

[FWIW, the Bonanza emergency gear handle is under the passenger seat, and a bit of a pain to operate while flying even with the engine operating perfectly.]
 
StraightnLevel said:
Same here in my Bonanza - BUT:

How easy is it to extend that gear manually while simultaneously flying a twin with one engine out? That might have been a bigger risk.

[FWIW, the Bonanza emergency gear handle is under the passenger seat, and a bit of a pain to operate while flying even with the engine operating perfectly.]
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I agree the video I saw the plane was on jacks and I suppose it was the mechanic doing the gear extension. He had difficulty unlatching the lever under the floor then relatching the lever back.
Maybe a Twin Comanche pilot will respond. He was just sitting in pilots seat with the plane on jacks.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Same here in my Bonanza - BUT:

How easy is it to extend that gear manually while simultaneously flying a twin with one engine out? That might have been a bigger risk.

[FWIW, the Bonanza emergency gear handle is under the passenger seat, and a bit of a pain to operate while flying even with the engine operating perfectly.]
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Ok, but she didn't say anything about loss of electrical, or the manual extension not working, or anything else that could be verified, she says her landing gear "broke." I wonder how her follower count has been affected by this event.
 
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