Paper sectional charts- are we still using them?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by cowman, Sep 13, 2017.

?

Do you still fly with paper charts?

  1. Yes, I use paper charts as my primary source

    14 vote(s)
    8.3%
  2. Yes, I keep current paper charts as a backup

    43 vote(s)
    25.6%
  3. Yes, I have paper charts for backup but they're not current

    48 vote(s)
    28.6%
  4. No, I'm fine with electronic options only

    60 vote(s)
    35.7%
  5. Who needs a map?

    3 vote(s)
    1.8%
  1. cowman

    cowman En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    3,275
    Location:
    Danger Zone
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cowman
    I hadn't thought about them much in a while but I was cleaning out the plane today and happened to pull all those now several years out of date sectionals out. When I started flying I always kept them as backups even though I knew I was using the ipad. I've yet to use one in the cockpit for anything beyond a window shade on the ramp in all that time. I also noted I'm soon to be flying somewhere I don't have paper charts for and wondering if there was really any point in getting them.

    I've got the ipad, my iphone, and the database in the garmin 430. I've never had to fall back on anything, none of them have ever failed on me. Am I just cluttering up map pockets I could use for something I'm more likely to want quick access to?

    Curious what everyone else is doing.
     
  2. Code90

    Code90 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2014
    Messages:
    137
    Location:
    Mt Pleasant, SC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Code90
    My buddy flew with me today. Doing a RNAV approach, he pulled out his old school printed book. I asked him if he had geo-referencing on it. I then had to explain what that meant.
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  3. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    1,739
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    After I got Foreflight and since the planes I fly have either a GTN750 or at least a 430 in them I stopped carrying my paper charts.. HOWEVER, a few weeks ago it was very hot out and my iPad overheated and shut off on one of my cross countries.. I took it out of its case and placed it near the vent and it cooled down fast.. but that has made me want to carry an old paper backup just in case, and did give me pause for a minute

    So here's why I carry an old paper chart backup
    -I don't need it for my typical VFR navigation and flights, I know the area I fly in real well and am comfortable with most of the landmarks, etc. BUT, I do rely on my iPad quite often to make sure I am always vigilant of the crazy airspace I fly around in SoCal. Maybe it's just me but the 430 and even the 750 moving maps really aren't great, to be frank I keep them usually on the heading and track pages, especially if I have a route plugged in. If the iPad goes down being able to quickly reference a paper chart to find the floors, ceilings, and boundaries of the Bravo airspaces brings me piece of mind. I know enough about my local area to fly around without hitting them.. but it's still nice to have just in case I'm flying back from a less familiar direction, etc.
     
  4. asicer

    asicer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages:
    1,992
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    asicer
    My pax like to use them as sunshades.
     
    RyanLikesFlying and denverpilot like this.
  5. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,735
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    I had a paper chart subscription when I bought my first iPad more than 7 years ago. I think I received one more paper delivery.

    My iPad's have all been WiFi-only and the closest I've had to a failure was when I left my Stratus on the glareshield in Florida during a stop and it overheated in the sun (I've always been more diligent with my tablet). Not a big deal.

    I have an Android tablet as backup and, while not ideal, charts my phone will do fine in a pinch in conjunction with the on-board avionics.
     
  6. Hank S

    Hank S En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2013
    Messages:
    3,621
    Location:
    Eclectic, AL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Hank
    I keep current paper, its not expensive and is easier to look ahead or around with. Tablet scrolling and zooming all the time gets old, zoom out to sorta see what's ahead, then zoom in to be able to read what it is, then zoom out, scroll around, zoom in. It's a pain, can't imagine doing that in turbulence.

    Georeferenced approach plates, though, are the bee's knees! Only took one flight to convince me of that!

    EFBs and electronic charts are great for preflight planning, sitting at a table with no turbulence, no bouncing and all the time in the world. It's better on a larger screen, but I've yet to try it on the TV . . . .
     
    Justin M and somorris like this.
  7. Dana

    Dana Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2016
    Messages:
    426
    Location:
    CT & NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dana
    I don't do all that much cross country flying, but I use my Android tablet with Avare as primary and a partial paper chart (downloaded and printed, not purchased) as backup. Paper charts in an open cockpit are tricky.
     
  8. TRocket

    TRocket Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2014
    Messages:
    795
    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Uncle Jesse
    For most VFR and en route stuff I use the Ipad with paper as a backup, for approaches I use paper as primary.
     
  9. Jim_R

    Jim_R Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,174
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jim
    Have been carrying paper sectionals, low IFR charts, and AFD for years. Have not opened any of them for years. Have relied on electronic-only approach charts since I got my rating. I think it's mostly nostalgia that keeps me from canceling my subscription.
     
  10. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    4,701
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pasta Man
    For my TRAINING - I use paper and learn old school. [Must... finish... IR]

    For my usual flying - GNS430 and GPSMAP696 with current updates.
     
  11. Clip4

    Clip4 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages:
    2,156
    Location:
    A Rubber Room
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cli4ord
    If people didn't use paper, they would have stopped producing paper charts.
     
    Ravioli likes this.
  12. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    8,826
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Paper sectional backup still for work. For hobby generally don't look at anything within 50 miles. Long XC, AOPA planner paper backup.
     
  13. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2008
    Messages:
    11,621
    Location:
    mass fla
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ron keating
    The last paper chart I used ,was for the AlCan highway.
     
  14. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2012
    Messages:
    7,447
    Location:
    Lincoln NE
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brian
    There are even 135 operators who don't have anything paper in the airplane anymore, including the airplane manuals being electronic. Saves useful load and all the expense and labor to maintain the paper. Large airplane flight manuals get dropped and damaged, pages ripped out and missing, coffee spilled on them and just a mess.


    (I hate paper too)
     
  15. charheep

    charheep Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    465
    Location:
    Aurora, IL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    charheep
    They make ForeFlight charts on paper now? What a country..

    (yes, this was a joke)
     
  16. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,740
    Location:
    Hopewell Jct, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shepherd
    You need a button that says "I use my paper maps along with my other nav aids".
     
    AKBill and Zeldman like this.
  17. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,944
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    Last trip, the phone (running Avare) pooped out a hundred some miles from home. Paper got me the rest of the way.
     
  18. steingar

    steingar Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    24,341
    Location:
    Land of Savages
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    steingar
    Yeah, my flight back from Pennsylvania (I visited someone in jail, a Steingar first!) I had the iPad heat up when the sun hit it. I was near airspace and quite unhappy about the situation, but was able to pull out my phone for a back up. Indeed, I'm going to update my phone for one with more memory so I can get all the downloads from Foreflight. Backups should work.

    I have a panel mount VFR GPS which is fine for navigation, but it doesn't show airspace in any kind of usable form. I have an old Garmin 296 in the back, but it takes a while to find itself if I start it up and we're moving at 140 knots.
     
  19. Gerhardt

    Gerhardt En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,886
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Gerhardt
    I'm almost afraid to ask. Who'd you jailbreak?
     
  20. steingar

    steingar Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    24,341
    Location:
    Land of Savages
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    steingar
    Got a nephew in the hoosegow, just being a good Uncle.
     
    FloridaPilot and denverpilot like this.
  21. luvflyin

    luvflyin En-Route

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    4,189
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    Yeah. I use them both. Not just one until it's broke and then the other.
     
    AKBill likes this.
  22. deyoung

    deyoung Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2014
    Messages:
    144
    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    CHD
    I have a couple of paper charts for my home area in the plane still, but I don't keep them current and I haven't opened them in forever. I use and android tablet with GP primarily (and a desktop PC for pre-flight planning), with my android phone also with GP as a backup. The phone is too small to be ideal, but it's good enough in a pinch.
     
  23. chartbundle

    chartbundle Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    700
    Location:
    State of Confusion
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    chartbundle
    I used to carry paper for a couple years after I went digital, but now I've stopped.

    Sometimes I miss the big picture of paper charts, although I can just pull up my website or iflightplanner to see a big sectional or enroute chart on my big computer monitor at home for those times. For my recent Oregon to Colorado flight it was nice using the tablet and being able to punch in a list of waypoints, pull up current fuel prices, hit another button and see what the terrain profile looked like, current visibilities due to the smoke, where the TFRs are, move some points, check terrain again, choose a fuel stop, see distances and estimated times. Choose different fuel stop, etc.

    Currently my iPad Pro is primary(for charts, the panel GPS is obviously primary for Navigation), the Panel GPS is secondary and handy for quick frequency checks. An 8 inch Android Tablet to be named as soon as I find one I like as a backup to those and my android phone as a backup to all that. All the not-panel devices have up to date Garmin Pilot charts as primary and FlightPlan Go as backup.

    Oh, yea, it's Chart Thursday, time to make sure everything is up to date for the next 28 days...
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  24. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    8,180
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jordan
    I use paper back up occasionally.
     
  25. lancie00

    lancie00 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    196
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    lancie00
    I keep an outdated paper copy "just in case" but between my phone and ipad I haven't used paper in years.
     
  26. danhagan

    danhagan Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    May 7, 2009
    Messages:
    1,375
    Location:
    El Paso, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    danhagan
    I have about 8 different ones of the SW and an old TAC chart for LA. My son likes to look at them for landmarks as a passenger. Sometimes they are sun protectors for the windshield if parked outdoors;)
     
  27. Joey4420

    Joey4420 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2016
    Messages:
    126
    Location:
    Cincinnati Ohio
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Joey4420
    Just your basic VFR sport pilot, I use my iPad or iPhone for all my charts. I have an Xnaut iPad cooler in my plane so the iPad never even thinks of getting hot. I do carry the one Ohio Chart with me as it is the only one I have purchased.
     
  28. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,763
    Location:
    Durham NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleDriver
    I went paperless 6 years ago when I started flying my RV10. There's never been a paper chart or plate in the aircraft. I use ForeFlight on a pad and phone. I file IFR on almost every flight and almost every flight is CC. Have a G430w for smarts and a GRT experimental EFIS for graphical display. The only real challenge is writing clearances on FF's scratchpad.

    When I was flying IFR with paper and no AP, learning to manage the paper (and pencils), in IMC w/turbulence was a major challenge, now not so much though I spent much time and effort optimizing the iPad mount.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  29. MickYoumans

    MickYoumans Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,228
    Location:
    2J5 / KBXG - Georgia
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MickYoumans
    I have the freebe state sectionals that are produced by the Department of Transportation for the states that I fly in regularly. Since I went over to an EFB, I have never had to use one though. I currently have a Garmin GTN650 and WingX running on my iPad and iPhone. Prior to the iPad days I had PCAvionics Mountain Scope running on a small eBook PC. I do have a kneeboard and use 6PCs website to printout airport information for my flights formated for a kneeboard to jot my notes on. I do not miss the old days of having to fly with sectionals, airport directories and charts. Not only was it a pain having all of that paper to haul around, but it was more expensive too.
     
    MBDiagMan likes this.
  30. somorris

    somorris Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,166
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    somorris
    I agree 100% and that is why I carry paper also. Much, much easier to use as you described.
     
  31. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    2,467
    Location:
    NorthEast Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc
    I have an IPhone with Foreflight on the yoke and an IPad with Foreflight in my lap and when in the a Mooney a 430W in the panel, but I always have an adequate collection of paper charts within reach. It has been a long time since I have reached for one and it is a virtual guarantee that if I do it will be an out of date chart, but it helps to know there is a third level backup if I ever need it.
     
  32. asicer

    asicer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages:
    1,992
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    asicer
    If you have to fly through an area NOTAM'ed for intermittent GPS, do you disable GPS on your ipad/iphone? Or is it not a big deal? (serious question)
     
  33. deyoung

    deyoung Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2014
    Messages:
    144
    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    CHD
    No, though I've only been in that situation once (flying along the Rio Grande west of White Sands). It wouldn't have mattered, since in that case all GPS reception just went away (and there was a steady stream of airliners asking ATC if anyone had reported GPS problems...). It was a clear day and just following the river VFR would have worked fine, but I used it as an excuse to practice following VORs. In any case, not a big deal.
     
  34. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    15,636
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Depends, I like to keep a sectional around, I also like to teach with them to a extent, it nice being able to fold, write, etc, also nice to have a big ol WAC for some planning

    Day to day, foreflight
     
  35. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,735
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    It depends. On and off, no big deal. Put the panel stuff in VLOC if radio navigation is desired or needed and go from there. In terms of the tablet, simple on-and-off is no big deal. If the problem included erroneous indications also, I might find it distracting in the same sense a failed attitude indicator or DG is distracting and want to turn "own ship" off if that were an option and just use it as a chart reader..
     
  36. OkieFlyer

    OkieFlyer En-Route

    Joined:
    May 16, 2011
    Messages:
    2,505
    Location:
    Lindsay, OK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Andrew L.
    I keep a sectional handy as backup to the Garmin 696. Don't use them very often at all and I don't keep them up to date. I do use the AFD regularly though. It's quicker for me to look up frequencies and such in the AFD than on the Garmin. I don't use any other electronic devices in the cockpit.
     
    Ravioli likes this.
  37. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,763
    Location:
    Durham NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleDriver
    Hasn't happened to me yet. First order of business would be to make sure I'm prepared to navigate using Nav radios and make it so on panel.

    Once I saw a faulty GPS indication I would turn off the GPS on my iPad and just use it as an electronic map without geo-referencing. No real impact there. Oh no! No geo- referenced maps or plates... so 20th century.

    Ironically my external GPS puck somehow turned itself off for a flight this morning. This the first time it happened in 6 years of using it! I didn't even notice the loss of geo referencing until an hour into the flight. I recycled the puck and all was back to normal. I fly the panel and just use the iPad as a electronic document/map repository. The GPS functionality is just gravy.

    Equally ironic I flew 260+ miles in VMC, then got the RNAV 28 approach to mins at KAGC. Hit the clouds 200 feet above DH, saw the rabbit and bars at DH. That was different.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  38. EminiTrader

    EminiTrader Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2013
    Messages:
    1,033
    Location:
    JAX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Emini Trader
    Going to get my commercial in a couple weeks at a "3 day thing". And they told me to buy paper. UGGGG!
     
  39. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2016
    Messages:
    422
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan Ferguson 1974
    Wrapping paper for Christmas presents! But ran out years ago. Have been purely electronic for years, never looking back.
     
  40. N747JB

    N747JB Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2011
    Messages:
    5,840
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    John
    I was in Key West about 6 years ago, still using paper and a buddy wanted me to drop him and his with off in Naples on the way home. He is also a pilot, he whipped out his iPad and plugged in our clearance before I read it back to the ground controller. I was hooked!! I do miss using the paper charts for a sun screen on clear days!! Between my 650/750 and iPad, I think I'm covered!
     
    denverpilot likes this.