Netjets 680 down on Highway in Laredo

I didn’t want to go down a rabbit hole that doesn’t apply to a corporate plane but you can look up Boeing’s Aero magazine, the third quarter of 2007 where it talks about overweight landings. Yes, a transport category plane has to meet a one engine inop missed approach climb gradient. It had to meet the second segment climb at the takeoff weight.
 
Rockymountain said:
Well if you are the owner or pilots of a Latitude or similar type, and it just suffered a fatal systems failure, you would be quite interested in what that failure was and how it happened. If it is a stupid pilot trick, not so much interested.
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I doubt we have any Latitude or Sovereign owners here. We do have a contingent of arm chair investigators pacing the floor wanting an instant result investigation.

Besides, the manufacturer is actively involved in the investigation. They do not have to wait for a prelim or final to react if there is an airframe problem. If there was a problem they would have already put out safety bulletins and/or service bulletins to address the problem.

The pilots survived, the black boxes were recovered so inside the investigation many facts have already been discovered (airframe data, engine data, avionics data, cockpit voice recording, etc)
 
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Rockymountain said:
Well if you are the owner or pilots of a Latitude or similar type, and it just suffered a fatal systems failure, you would be quite interested in what that failure was and how it happened. If it is a stupid pilot trick, not so much interested.
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Thank you Rockymountain!
 
Rockymountain said:
Well if you are the owner or pilots of a Latitude or similar type, and it just suffered a fatal systems failure, you would be quite interested in what that failure was and how it happened. If it is a stupid pilot trick, not so much interested.
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More owners should be interested in stupid pilot tricks.
 
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dmspilot said:
Does he just make up s#@! like he did with Air India?
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I believe so. He seems to target his stuff towards the everday airline passenger who wants to learn more about air travel and are convinced they're picking up inside info and explanations from a seasoned pro. Not realizing that he's pulling some of his stuff out of his arse to obtain and maintain clicks (and income)....
 
Doc Holliday said:
We do have a contingent of arm chair investigators pacing the floor wanting an instant result investigation.
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I've never seen a single person wanting instant results. What I've seen on dozens and dozens of threads over the course of decades (here and elsewhere) is a pretty natural curiosity and desire to try and put the known puzzle pieces together.
 
172andyou said:
I've never seen a single person wanting instant results. What I've seen on dozens and dozens of threads over the course of decades (here and elsewhere) is a pretty natural curiosity and desire to try and put the known puzzle pieces together.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existence." ( Albert Einstein).
 
172andyou said:
I've never seen a single person wanting instant results.
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But there have been dozens who question why the prelim report is not out in a day or two, or why any other of the info hasn't been released in 48 hours. Not "instant" but same difference. One can speculate or question all they want, but the NTSB has worked at a predefined process for years and as mentioned above, if they found a possible flight safety issue with this accident, they would issue an AD or similar document just as they did with the UPS MD11 and similar accidents.
 
Bell206 said:
But there have been dozens who question why the prelim report is not out in a day or two, or why any other of the info hasn't been released in 48 hours. Not "instant" but same difference. One can speculate or question all they want, but the NTSB has worked at a predefined process for years and as mentioned above, if they found a possible flight safety issue with this accident, they would issue an AD or similar document just as they did with the UPS MD11 and similar accidents.
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Ok, that's at least a little bit fair. I guess I'm reading that a curiosity about how the system works, rather than demanding quick action.
 
172andyou said:
Ok, that's at least a little bit fair. I guess I'm reading that a curiosity about how the system works, rather than demanding quicky or two
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Bell206 said:
But there have been dozens who question why the prelim report is not out in a day or two, or why any other of the info hasn't been released in 48 hours. Not "instant" but same difference. One can speculate or question all they want, but the NTSB has worked at a predefined process for years and as mentioned above, if they found a possible flight safety issue with this accident, they would issue an AD or similar document just as they did with the UPS MD11 and similar accidents.
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A day or two is very unrealistic, but may be a week, 10 days for a preliminary in this case…..if the accident airplane went down in the middle of the Atlantic and no survivors and its wreckage is 10, 000 down, even a couple of months will probably be unreasonable for a prelim …….
 
Bell206 said:
But there have been dozens who question why the prelim report is not out in a day or two, or why any other of the info hasn't been released in 48 hours. Not "instant" but same difference. One can speculate or question all they want, but the NTSB has worked at a predefined process for years and as mentioned above, if they found a possible flight safety issue with this accident, they would issue an AD or similar document just as they did with the UPS MD11 and similar accidents.
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Everyone knows that.
 
The problem that the final reports take so long everyone forgets the accident and the news rarely does a recap when the report does come out.

I’m still waiting for the C310 in Boca Raton crash to come out over a year ago.

I also believe that the NTSB can’t definitely say what really happened on all crashes.
Nature of the Beast.
 
Sure. There was a recent post speculating about a conspiracy and coverup because VasAviation didn't immediately post a video, so someone must be hiding the ATC recordings--despite the fact that they were sitting right where they always are on Live ATC.

1782485690104.jpeg
 
bonefishpete said:
The problem that the final reports take so long everyone forgets the accident and the news rarely does a recap when the report does come out.

I’m still waiting for the C310 in Boca Raton crash to come out over a year ago.

I also believe that the NTSB can’t definitely say what really happened on all crashes.
Nature of the Beast.
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No probable cause in final report in many cases!
 
bonefishpete said:
The problem that the final reports take so long everyone forgets the accident and the news rarely does a recap when the report does come out.

I’m still waiting for the C310 in Boca Raton crash to come out over a year ago.

I also believe that the NTSB can’t definitely say what really happened on all crashes.
Nature of the Beast.
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Still waiting for the final on that PC-12 crash near San Angelo 2.5 years ago.
 
172andyou said:
I've never seen a single person wanting instant results. What I've seen on dozens and dozens of threads over the course of decades (here and elsewhere) is a pretty natural curiosity and desire to try and put the known puzzle pieces together.
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Except they don't have those "known puzzle pieces" and are often deferring to some youtube personality who is equally clueless.
 
Cesarmx said:
even a couple of months will probably be unreasonable for a prelim …….
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Not at all. There have been a number of accidents where the prelim took over a month or two to be released. Perhaps research the NTSB website for their processes and maybe look through some old dockets just to get an idea what goes on in an aircraft accident/incident investigation?

172andyou said:
I guess I'm reading that a curiosity about how the system works,
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I think if that were the case the question would have been how long does it take a prelim report to be released...

dtuuri said:
Everyone knows that.
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No they don't. If they did, no one would keep asking the same questions about the reports, etc..
 
Flying Keys said:
Still waiting for the final on that PC-12 crash near San Angelo 2.5 years ago.
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Maybe US Congress needs to revise the NTSB charter and update it accordingly to present era needs and allocate enough funds to avoid this kind of absurd delays ( we are talking about years in delays in here, not 1-2 days or weeks)

With so much Government cutting going on, this is easier said than done!
 
Cesarmx said:
Maybe US Congress needs to revise the NTSB charter and update it accordingly to present era needs and allocate enough funds to avoid this kind of absurd delays ( we are talking about years in delays in here, not 1-2 days or weeks)

With so much Government cutting going on, this is easier said than done!
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How do you know the delay is absurd or related to funding?
 
Cesarmx said:
Maybe US Congress needs to revise the NTSB charter and update it accordingly to present era needs and allocate enough funds to avoid this kind of absurd delays
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What specifically to you believe is the purpose behind the NTSB?
 
Doc Holliday said:
Except they don't have those "known puzzle pieces" and are often deferring to some youtube personality who is equally clueless.
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Captain Steeeve has his own personal way of presenting events or accidents. Not many pilots have the chance and of becoming an Airline Captain of a 777 successfully, and he did it safely for various decades until his retirement some months back. If he was not assertive on the outcome of Air India Accident, is for humans to err.
He deserves my admiration and respect as pilot and as a human. I shall wait for the prelim and final NTSB reports.
 
Cesarmx said:
Captain Steeeve has his own personal way of presenting events or accidents. Not many pilots have the chance and of becoming an Airline Captain of a 777 successfully, and he did it safely for various decades until his retirement some months back. If he was not assertive on the outcome of Air India Accident, is for humans to err.
He deserves my admiration and respect as pilot and as a human. I shall wait for the prelim and final NTSB reports.
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Captain steeeeve is a ****ing idiot.

His ability to not crash an airplane at an airline jobs gives him no inside information to post the types of statements he does.

He’s the epitome of clickbait. He leverages his resume to appear competent to comment and then makes **** up. His behavior online damn near got him fired before he retired.

He’s a tool.

You shouldn’t waste your time watching the guy.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Captain steeeeve is a ****ing idiot.

His ability to not crash an airplane at an airline jobs gives him no inside information to post the types of statements he does.

He’s the epitome of clickbait. He leverages his resume to appear competent to comment and then makes **** up. His behavior online damn near got him fired before he retired.

He’s a tool.

You shouldn’t waste your time watching the guy.
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Describes 99.99% of online “experts”
 
Cesarmx said:
Captain Steeeve has his own personal way of presenting events or accidents. Not many pilots have the chance and of becoming an Airline Captain of a 777 successfully, and he did it safely for various decades until his retirement some months back.
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And what does that have to do with aircraft accident investigation? I know a lot of fellow pilots that have become 777 Capts but that didn't qualify them as Aircraft Accident Investigators.
 
Larry in TN said:
That's interesting. How did DEF get in the jet fuel?
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This is a big problem in FBO safety. Newer trucks have engines that require DEF, which is stored in a tank on the truck. Those same trucks usually have the capability of mixing in Prist with the jet fuel, and the Prist is stored in a tank on the truck too. When filling those tanks, it's easy to confuse one for the other.

There have been, last I checked (which has been about ~3 years at least), at least 8 incidents of DEF getting into jet fuel, and at least one instance of it causing dual flameout causing a jet to be dead-sticked to an airport.

IMO, someone needs to develop an electric refueling truck, and soon. Also, at least one company has developed a truck that has a prist tank that can detect if DEF is added.

Larry in TN said:
That makes sense. We don't use Prist in transport jets. We have fuel/oil heat exchangers where heat is removed from the oil and transferred to the fuel.
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Some places have jet fuel that is premixed, others have trucks that mix (or don't). I wouldn't bet that "we don't use Prist in transport jets" is always true - I wouldn't be surprised at all if some of your smaller out-stations, especially for a regional, have fuel that's premixed or comes from a truck that can mix in Prist. I would say the more accurate version of your statement is "We don't require Prist in transport jets." It's still quite possible to have a contamination issue if you're taking fuel from a diesel truck that services both Jet-A- and Jet-A+.

Cesarmx said:
To pilots who know this operation well and present and ex Airline pilots:

Is 11 hrs-duty a long time that may have contributed to Fatigue of the pilots?
Is this type of duty time within the FAR guidelines for 121 and 135 parts, or maybe even within NetJet or an Airline own guidelines?
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Part 117 governs duty time for part 121 operators. For Part 135, it's Subpart F (135.263 through 135.273) and generally speaking we're limited to 14 hours. For a 91K operator like NetJets, it's 91.1059 which is very similar and generally limits to 14 hours.

However, fatigue isn't binary. After 11 hours, you're definitely not as sharp as you were after 1 hour.

Cesarmx said:
For the crew. Do they change crews at NetJets in one day? I had thought only Airlines would do it…..
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Heck, even small operators do it.

Dave Theisen said:
That is correct. It’s more for CG issues from fuel trapped in the tail tank than it is for over weight landings.
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Interesting... If we become unable to transfer fuel from our ventral tank, we simply have to land before we get down to a certain weight, which is just barely below max landing weight. No dump available.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Captain steeeeve is a ****ing idiot.

His ability to not crash an airplane at an airline jobs gives him no inside information to post the types of statements he does.

He’s the epitome of clickbait. He leverages his resume to appear competent to comment and then makes **** up. His behavior online damn near got him fired before he retired.

He’s a tool.

You shouldn’t waste your time watching the guy.
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My thoughts exactly.
 
I post here and there and not because I am a qualified aircraft accident investigator, but I just do it to learn and express my opinion, good or bad.
When I read other people responses, I keep the good and discard the worthless opinions. From what I have seen from Captain Steeeve videos I believe, due to his ample airplane pilot experience, credentials and achievements as pilot, he can be a good Airplane accident investigator if he wanted to to become one.
His YouTube aviation accident videos run into the one half million, one million, two million and up views which tells us something. He too is giving his opinion on issues and it does not constitute an official report either!
My opinion only.
 
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Cesarmx said:
His YouTube aviation accident videos run into the one half million, one million, two million and up views which tells us something.
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Except the only thing it tells us is there a lot of people that like to see him dressed in his captains’ bars and talk about aircraft accidents. Nothing more. It takes more than just experience to be an investigator. Besides, if any of them could qualify to be an actual investigator they would have to stop posting their “findings” which I doubt none would do so as they love their click money too much. ;)
 
Bell206 said:
a lot of people that like to see him dressed in his captains’ bars :……………..they would have to stop posting their “findings” which I doubt none would do so as they love their click money too much. ;)
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Nothing wrong with that…….his choice and legal….
 
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