Exactly. But that hardly makes him an authoritative source for any civil accident investigation critiques. Same could be said for several social media types on the maintenance side as well. Just be careful who you want to believe.
Netjets 680 down on Highway in Laredo
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dans2992
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But… in the absence of info from the NTSB (which is often the case), the public will seek out info from guys like this.
Seriously, the pilots survived. Likely everyone has a pretty good idea what happened. It should be released.
Doc Holliday
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Who said it wouldn't be?
Cesarmx
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Absolutely! As I said before they have the airplane in 3-4 pieces, the boxes, The pilots are OK, ADSB ….It is not like the AF case at 12,000-14,000 feet down in the Atlantic ocean and no pilots and no pax alive unfortunately …….. I don’t believe that “one size fits for all cases”……-one same rule applied across the board ! And not saying either that it should had been released in 1-2 days after the accident either!
Doc Holliday
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Again, what's the hurry? Why not let them complete the preliminary?
True. But maybe the pilots aren’t physically able to respond? Or maybe they don’t want to respond and the NTSB needs to get subpoenas? Regardless, a “pretty good idea” simply doesn’t meet the requirements from my experiences with IICs.
Doc Holliday
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True. To add in there is Pratt & Whitney, Textron and the avionics manufacturer involved as well each doing their part of the investigation. Throw in a few other manufacturers of various parts such as valves and so forth.
Definitely. Or maybe they found issues at the departure airport in Mexico? Or maybe some equipment needs to be sent to specialized labs? Who knows.
KE5BM
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Let me preface this by saying I agree with you, Doc.
BUT...in the absence of information grows rumor and assumption...and where assumptions grow, fear grows...and congress critters love to feed on fear. Especially in this day and time of the woefully undereducated populace.
Jim_R
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There isn't a single congress critter who cares even a little bit about this accident, and there certainly arean't any who are champing at the bit to go take some knee-jerk action because of it.
NJP_MAN
Pattern Altitude
Pretty small. The chances they knowingly took off without enough fuel is greater than a bird strike. Imagine sitting on the ramp and knowing your arrival airport was going to be closing soon and you didn't get the proper fuel load. You also know that at the airport you're currently at you could wait for hours for the fuel truck to come back from the commercial terminal to fuel you. Maybe you decide "hey lets just get to Laredo and get fuel there so we can guarantee we get to Austin before they close". The chances of something like that are as possible as something like a bird strike.
bonefishpete
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Isn’t it entirely possible that they know exactly what happened by now. Same thing with that jump plane. Just takes time to put into a report that will stand up to scrutiny?
Doc Holliday
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Possible? Maybe. But as stated before, there are multiple parties involved including the NTSB, FAA, Mexican CAA, US Customs, Mexican Customs, The fueler at MMSD, Netjets, Textron, P&W, Garmin (assuming avionics) and other manufacturers. This requires collaboration and depending on where each party is in their part of the investigation it takes time.
Yep. No one wants to rush out a report with missing information. There is no release deadline even though the armchair investigators are demanding one.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Indeed. Better to have an accurate and complete report than a fast one. What's the hurry?
And just because the pilots survived, it doesn't mean they know the cause.
I say more like they hit a UFO than intentionally taking off without enough fuel. UFO strike more likely than bird ... idk ... been a lot of video released lately.
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True. Nature abhors a vacuum…
Tarheelpilot
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You say you’re willing to set aside the worthless opinions. Yet you insist on doubling down that Steve is credible. Amazing. You do you my friend.
Edit:
Now the rest of us understand how Steve makes money. What a Sshow
Cesarmx
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Don’t understand what Mexican and US Customs have to do with this accident investigation….it is beyond me! Unless a customs Law was unintentionally violated and perhaps could have been a contributor factor in the accident….?
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Doc Holliday
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There is paperwork filed departing Mexico. The Mexican CAA approves the flightplan and files it. They also (customs) approve the Eapis and the US Customs also approves the Eapis. The Eapis has departure and arrival times that are specific. So was a request to change received? Was there communication with either side of a possible late arrival or request to change destination? Was there a conversation with Netjets dispatch of a change of destination? Request for a new flightplan for fuel planning? Was any phone calls made to Laredo Customs requesting an entry there? What about fuel availability at Laredo after hours? Any phone records of that?
These are all pieces of the investigation. Interviews, copies of Eapis transmission, emails, recorded phone calls, etc. Takes time.
Agreed.
Has nothing to do with that.
Not at all given every prelim comes with this disclaimer on each page: "This information is preliminary and subject to change."
Every investigated accident/incident requires a review of the crew actions and maintenance performed in the previous 72-120 hours. Plus it requires fuel samples at the departure point, etc. But it has zero to do with customs.
Fueled and filed to KAUS but pax are late. KAUS customs will be closed. Forego the hassle of refiling Mexican flightplan and US eAPIS and plan to divert to KLRD. When airborne they immediately are direct LRD. Would customs accept this divert without a reason or would they need a reason such as "mechanical".
Doc Holliday
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We always call customs at the destination just before departure with an arrival time. If it's within 30 minutes of the Eapis arrival usually there's no problem.
Several months ago I was flying MMSL to KAFW. We had an Eapis filed for arrival but began experiencing delays. Upon calling KAFW customs were were told our Eapis was cancelled due to late arrival. We began refilling for KLRD which required a new Mexican Eapis and US Eapis plus making sure there was fuel available, etc.
With that being said, I personally would not accept a flight clearance to a destination that customs just told me I was not welcome to, nor would I just drop into KLRD unannounced and hope for some hospitality.
NJP_MAN
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We will see.I say more like they hit a UFO than intentionally taking off without enough fuel. UFO strike more likely than bird ... idk ... been a lot of video released lately.
Cesarmx
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Dealing with Mexican and U.S. Customs for their findings report to NTSB on the subject matter, It may well be several more weeks waiting for that! And this is only the Prelim Report from NTSB; for a final report it could be the end of 2028 or later……..
Doc Holliday
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Who implied they did?
They looked like they were going to KLRD from the getgo so I assume Netjets dispatch did some coordinating.
Doc Holliday
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Don't know, I'm waiting for the prelim to come out.
sourdough44
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I diverted flying into Canada many years ago. I swear the weather and forecast were fine, then end up with a wall of weather, north of MT.
I landed, called the Customs guy in Medicine Hat. At first he was a little torqued with me, told him the story. Later I refilled & flew over, he was nicer. Just doing what the regulations state.
The funny thing is, if I was trying to hide or smuggle anything, I could think of 20 better ways. This was under the old rules. I did deviate to Warroad, MN with the new Eapis rules, no biggie.
Just saying, safety of flight trumps paperwork.
I landed, called the Customs guy in Medicine Hat. At first he was a little torqued with me, told him the story. Later I refilled & flew over, he was nicer. Just doing what the regulations state.
The funny thing is, if I was trying to hide or smuggle anything, I could think of 20 better ways. This was under the old rules. I did deviate to Warroad, MN with the new Eapis rules, no biggie.
Just saying, safety of flight trumps paperwork.
hindsight2020
Final Approach
My experience with those clowns at CBP is they treat you differently when you have an airline (large 91k included) name behind your tail number. The saber-rattling about 5k fines and eAPIS notifications/ADIZ crossings is meant only for us peasants who naively think we have a right to re-enter our Country without penalty, by constitutional decree.
As to taking off short on FOB because "mexican fueling takes too long"? Oof. I guess I'll stipulate; def not cut out for corporate aviation if that's the case. It's the problem with having a pension, you get too comfortable saying NO in this life.
Jest aside, I'm willing to give a 91k crew with a job high paying enough to be considered "career money" as opposed to "time builder money", to be more guarded about it and not succumb to dumb rich people pressure. Furthermore, an outfit that dislocates its own shoulder patting itself in the back about running things like 121, would be about as immune as the latter about taking off without sufficient fuel. I'm no Captain Steve of course (/s), I can't stake my entire parasocial reputation making the claim they didn't bone up the fuel.. but I don't think they did. yes, I'm incurring a halo bias just because they have "netjets" jobs. That said, I'm 100% open to stand corrected on that matter if the evidence shows they in fact rushed over concern for CBP clowns, and launched with insufficient gas. Maybe the NTSB will get this one published before GTA 6....
As to taking off short on FOB because "mexican fueling takes too long"? Oof. I guess I'll stipulate; def not cut out for corporate aviation if that's the case. It's the problem with having a pension, you get too comfortable saying NO in this life.
Jest aside, I'm willing to give a 91k crew with a job high paying enough to be considered "career money" as opposed to "time builder money", to be more guarded about it and not succumb to dumb rich people pressure. Furthermore, an outfit that dislocates its own shoulder patting itself in the back about running things like 121, would be about as immune as the latter about taking off without sufficient fuel. I'm no Captain Steve of course (/s), I can't stake my entire parasocial reputation making the claim they didn't bone up the fuel.. but I don't think they did. yes, I'm incurring a halo bias just because they have "netjets" jobs. That said, I'm 100% open to stand corrected on that matter if the evidence shows they in fact rushed over concern for CBP clowns, and launched with insufficient gas. Maybe the NTSB will get this one published before GTA 6....
dans2992
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Nobody.
KE5BM
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That's because you're a reasonable person. Have you met the average American voter?
No, but this is a corporate aviation fatality incident. At a field nearby where I live there are signs everywhere to ban corporate aviation because the surrounding community is both enveloped in the belief that jet exhaust is killing the planet and in fear of a plane falling on their house. Given the number of aviation incidents being covered in the news these days - THAT drives people to scream to their congress critters who invariably feel the need to "do something."
Just ask any gun owner how this works.
Doc Holliday
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Sounds like a good excuse to move away.
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Since you linked the two, I'll ask: What could possibly be in a preliminary report that would alleviate the concerns or mitigate the arguments of anyone cloaking their anti-airport arguments in a veil of personal and environmental safety?
Nauga,
who is not ignorant of the ways of the social justice warrior
KE5BM
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At a minimum, it eliminates the iTube sensationalists from drawing ridiculous conclusions out of thin air. At best, even the preliminary can show enough information to dissuade one from ascertaining the sky is literally falling.
As an example of the type I'm referring to, 74Gear did an excellent video a couple years ago addressing an iTuber who swore he "almost died" in an airliner crossing the Atlantic on a westerly route. If I recall correctly, the winds were a bit stronger than forecast so the plane had to divert due to fuel. A passenger on that plane insisted that they were about to fall out of the sky to a watery death. Because our victim in the video doesn't have the foggiest idea how aviation works, he then sells (literally) his ignorant perspective to the rest of the world. And there are many who likely believe he narrowly escaped death. And then they return to their flat earth videos.
To be extra clear...I'm not concerned about a preliminary taking a while to come out because (like probably everyone on this forum) I know what goes into an investigation. The "average American voter" I refer to above does not.
As an example of the type I'm referring to, 74Gear did an excellent video a couple years ago addressing an iTuber who swore he "almost died" in an airliner crossing the Atlantic on a westerly route. If I recall correctly, the winds were a bit stronger than forecast so the plane had to divert due to fuel. A passenger on that plane insisted that they were about to fall out of the sky to a watery death. Because our victim in the video doesn't have the foggiest idea how aviation works, he then sells (literally) his ignorant perspective to the rest of the world. And there are many who likely believe he narrowly escaped death. And then they return to their flat earth videos.
To be extra clear...I'm not concerned about a preliminary taking a while to come out because (like probably everyone on this forum) I know what goes into an investigation. The "average American voter" I refer to above does not.
Not hardly. Re-read any previous accident threads and even with the factual report and public docket released they'll still be spewing their uneducated rhetoric. If you want to see it really go ballistic read a few high-profile helicopter accidents where those same fixed wing "experts" try to explain how a helicopter can crash.
Lindberg
Final Approach
The average American voter has no idea this happened. Even if they saw it on the news, they've already forgotten. And they certainly aren't waiting on the prelim.
KE5BM
Pre-takeoff checklist
From a iTuber 2 days ago: "A modern Cessna Citation business jet operated by NetJets crashed just short of the runway near Laredo, Texas, raising serious questions about what happened during its final approach.In this aviation documentary, we examine the aircraft's route from Mexico, the unexpected diversion to Laredo, reports of low fuel, the emergency landing attempt, witness footage, and the ongoing investigation."
KCWX television - an outlet serving central Texas...nowhere near the accident site - also found an attorney to interview about the incident less than 4 days ago. Even Capt. Steevie posted another video on it in the last 4 days. The commonality between all three as that they're just throwing crap on the wall to see what sticks. These are among the first handful of videos that appear when you search for "charter jet crash texas"
So yes...people are still filling the information gap with BS. This is the last I'll comment on it. I've made my point.
KCWX television - an outlet serving central Texas...nowhere near the accident site - also found an attorney to interview about the incident less than 4 days ago. Even Capt. Steevie posted another video on it in the last 4 days. The commonality between all three as that they're just throwing crap on the wall to see what sticks. These are among the first handful of videos that appear when you search for "charter jet crash texas"
So yes...people are still filling the information gap with BS. This is the last I'll comment on it. I've made my point.
Jim_R
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No, when you show that a congress critter has paid attention and taken some immediate action, you'll have made your point. Until then, you're just whistlin' Dixie.