NCAA football and pay for play

EdFred said:
OK, so now we've reached the real conclusion. All college classes are worthless.
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To folks like Jameis Winston. Yes they are. You think he's going to ever hold an FSU diploma in his hand? Those 3 years of studies in "Exploratory Major" are going to go a long way in the NFL... or anywhere for that matter. :rofl:

IMHO, the classes are worse than worthless. They're a nuisance, breed corruption and keep good players out of the business if they can't keep up academically.

The days of a semi-talented kid plugging away at football to pay for an education he can't afford in order to pave a career path to middle management ended at least 20 years ago.

Winston is a member of the 3.0 GPA club and his major is "Exploratory". Only on the FSU site will you find any mention of his major... and even there it's a bullet point. In other words, he's in a loophole major designed to keep him taking high school level courses and he's square in the middle of mediocre doing that.
 
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Here's a novel idea. Require colleges to hold college athletes to admissions and academic standards equivalent to every other student at the school. Those would be the kids who actually value their college education. A number of major schools do this, or at least get close to the ideal.

In the words of Judge Smails, "Well, the world needs ditch diggers too."
 
Since it's a major where no one is expected to succeed, much less advance, one could say the school has developed a special curriculum just for the revenue athletes. At least it keeps them out of the way of the regular students in real learning classes.
 
docmirror said:
Since it's a major where no one is expected to succeed, much less advance, one could say the school has developed a special curriculum just for the revenue athletes. At least it keeps them out of the way of the regular students in real learning classes.
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Don't schools have Phys Ed majors any more? That's custom made for the guys who don't take their academics seriously, yet still would like to leave with a sheep skin. At least then the 9 out of 10 football players that don't get drafted into the NFL can get jobs teaching High school PE, health, and drivers Ed.
 
bartmc said:
To folks like Jameis Winston. Yes they are. You think he's going to ever hold an FSU diploma in his hand? Those 3 years of studies in "Exploratory Major" are going to go a long way in the NFL... or anywhere for that matter. :rofl:

IMHO, the classes are worse than worthless. They're a nuisance, breed corruption and keep good players out of the business if they can't keep up academically.

The days of a semi-talented kid plugging away at football to pay for an education he can't afford in order to pave a career path to middle management ended at least 20 years ago.

Winston is a member of the 3.0 GPA club and his major is "Exploratory". Only on the FSU site will you find any mention of his major... and even there it's a bullet point. In other words, he's in a loophole major designed to keep him taking high school level courses and he's square in the middle of mediocre doing that.
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Yes, because every single kid that ever got a football scholarship ends up in the NFL.

Let's see...

32 NFL teams x 53 man roster = 1696 players.
125 D1 schools x 85 scholarships = 10625 kids.

Yep, they all definitely make the NFL.
 
EdFred said:
Yes, because every single kid that ever got a football scholarship ends up in the NFL.

Let's see...

32 NFL teams x 53 man roster = 1696 players.
125 D1 schools x 85 scholarships = 10625 kids.

Yep, they all definitely make the NFL.
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Nobody said that. and even if ZERO go, why do you oppose them being paid?

I get it, the professor's egos could be hurt if their students make more than them. It's just not "fair". And most of all, there's only so many billions of dollars in NCCAA football money to go around and the old guys in nice suits need it more than the 17 year old from Compton.

When you sign the letter of intent to play for Alabama. NFL is on your mind. You don't play football at Alabama for the academics (Though it's a fine school). You go there to major in "Exploratory", build your draft stock and pray you don't get hurt before cashing your first check.
 
EdFred said:
Yes, because every single kid that ever got a football scholarship ends up in the NFL.

Let's see...

32 NFL teams x 53 man roster = 1696 players.
125 D1 schools x 85 scholarships = 10625 kids.

Yep, they all definitely make the NFL.
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And those that do make it to the NFL have an average career lifespan of 3.3 years, ending their career due to injury, retirement, or being cut from the team. Running backs are shorter at 2.57 years. Wide receivers at 2.94, QBs at 4.44, and kickers at 4.87 years.

I don't care who you are, you've got to have a plan B when you become unemployed at age 26 or 27. If only they had a college degree.
 
I've read the entire thread and noticed a consistent problem, on the parts of numerous, re knowledge of proper expression. When observing improper uses of words there, their, they're, it's, its; sloppy punctuation, and a phrase "between among," I wonder if said respondents spent too much time on the fields and not enough attention paid to the scholarship factor.

HR
 
I have a spelling checker.
It came with my pea sea.
It plane lee marks four my revue
Miss steaks aye can knot sea.

Eye ran this poem threw it,
Your sure reel glad two no.
Its vary polished in it's weigh.
My checker tolled me sew.

A checker is a bless sing,
It freeze yew lodes of thyme.
It helps me right awl stiles two reed,
And aides me when I rime.

Each frays come posed up on my screen
eye trussed too bee a joule.
The checker pours o'er every word
To cheque sum spelling rule.

Bee fore a veiling checker's Hour
spelling mite decline,
And if we're lacks oar have a laps,
We wood bee maid too wine.

Butt now bee cause my spelling
Is checked with such grate flair,
Their are no fault's with in my cite,
Of nun eye am a ware.

Now spelling does knot phase me,
It does knot bring a tier.
My pay purrs awl due glad den
With wrapped word's fare as hear.

To rite with care is quite a feet
Of witch won should be proud,
And wee mussed dew the best wee can,
Sew flaw's are knot aloud.

Sow ewe can sea why aye dew prays,
Such soft wear four pea seas,
And why eye brake in two averse
Buy righting too pleas.
 
Lawreston said:
I've read the entire thread and noticed a consistent problem, on the parts of numerous, re knowledge of proper expression. When observing improper uses of words there, their, they're, it's, its; sloppy punctuation, and a phrase "between among," I wonder if said respondents spent too much time on the fields and not enough attention paid to the scholarship factor.

HR
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College English teaching fellows are underpaid, huge freshmen classes all paying big bucks. Taught by a grad student making min wage or worse. It just isn't fair.
 
bartmc said:
To folks like Jameis Winston. Yes they are. You think he's going to ever hold an FSU diploma in his hand? Those 3 years of studies in "Exploratory Major" are going to go a long way in the NFL... or anywhere for that matter. :rofl:

IMHO, the classes are worse than worthless. They're a nuisance, breed corruption and keep good players out of the business if they can't keep up academically.

The days of a semi-talented kid plugging away at football to pay for an education he can't afford in order to pave a career path to middle management ended at least 20 years ago.

Winston is a member of the 3.0 GPA club and his major is "Exploratory". Only on the FSU site will you find any mention of his major... and even there it's a bullet point. In other words, he's in a loophole major designed to keep him taking high school level courses and he's square in the middle of mediocre doing that.
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Yet according to the NFL players Association, NFL players with college degrees make between 20% and 30% MORE than players who left school early to enter the NFL, and careers that lasted about 50% longer than those without degrees.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/15527-long-average-career-nfl-player/#page=6

Hmmm. It sounds like a scholarship football player gets a substantial deferred compensation benefit for his "work" related to his scholarship, but only if he gives a **** and actually obtains his degree, as thousands of other football players do each and every year.

I guess it DOES pay to stay in school after all.
 
bartmc said:
Nobody said that. and even if ZERO go, why do you oppose them being paid?

I get it, the professor's egos could be hurt if their students make more than them. It's just not "fair". And most of all, there's only so many billions of dollars in NCCAA football money to go around and the old guys in nice suits need it more than the 17 year old from Compton.

When you sign the letter of intent to play for Alabama. NFL is on your mind. You don't play football at Alabama for the academics (Though it's a fine school). You go there to major in "Exploratory", build your draft stock and pray you don't get hurt before cashing your first check.
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You said exactly that. Read what you wrote in bold. 90ish% of the kids never make it to the NFL. They are absolutely getting degrees for jobs other than football.

And they are getting paid...with a scholarship. Not sure why you have a hard time grasping that.
 
EdFred said:
You said exactly that. Read what you wrote in bold. 90ish% of the kids never make it to the NFL. They are absolutely getting degrees for jobs other than football.

And they are getting paid...with a scholarship. Not sure why you have a hard time grasping that.
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The thing you're not grasping is I'm AOK with a kid going to he university of southwestern idAho playing for only an MBA.

I'm talking about the moneymakers. Winston, manziel, luck, rgIIII. Pay em what they're worth. If you're only worth a BA in phys ed..... Well, that's what you're worth.
 
Name the three quarterbacks before any of those guys at their respective schools. What was the change in attendance after the arrival of those kids?

That change is about the only real measure of their worth. In other words, the schools are going to bring in the same amount of fans and money to the games regardless of whose name in on the back of the jerseys. So their individual worth to the university is really more or less 0.
 
EdFred said:
Name the three quarterbacks before any of those guys at their respective schools. What was the change in attendance after the arrival of those kids?

That change is about the only real measure of their worth. In other words, the schools are going to bring in the same amount of fans and money to the games regardless of whose name in on the back of the jerseys. So their individual worth to the university is really more or less 0.
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Kellen Moore, Alex Smith, Blake Bortles, Teddy Bridgewater etc...

The bigger schools are EXPECTED to put a quality team on the field.

You're saying that the value of RGIII is $0.00 because just as many people attended Redskins games this year as opposed to years past.
 
bartmc said:
Kellen Moore, Alex Smith, Blake Bortles, Teddy Bridgewater etc...

The bigger schools are EXPECTED to put a quality team on the field.

You're saying that the value of RGIII is $0.00 because just as many people attended Redskins games this year as opposed to years past.
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No, I'm saying because the big name programs sell out regardless of who any "stars" are, their value is $0.00. And I'm pretty sure the Redskins aren't a college program.
 
EdFred said:
No, I'm saying because the big name programs sell out regardless of who any "stars" are, their value is $0.00. And I'm pretty sure the Redskins aren't a college program.
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Is also a great argument for not paying coaches. Have an existing professor do it for the love of the game. He's fortunate to work or Michigan as it is.
 
The SMU Redskins? Hmmm, thought they were the Mustangs, learn something new every day.

SMU was unsuccessful prior to 1986? Doak Walker hates you.
 
EdFred said:
The SMU Redskins? Hmmm, thought they were the Mustangs, learn something new every day.

SMU was unsuccessful prior to 1986? Doak Walker hates you.
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Hey, if their value is $0.00. Removing the restriction to pay them will have no effect. Let's put your theory to the test.
 
Removing all of the players is different than not paying them.

Remove all the volunteers from the Red Cross, etc... and see how well they perform.

And I never said their value was 0. Their value is equal to that of the scholarship they receive. You keep assigning an incorrect value of 0 to the scholarship. You can't declare 2+2=7 and then claim that I said that was the case.
 
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EdFred said:
Removing all of the players is different than not paying them.

Remove all the volunteers from the Red Cross, etc... and see how well they perform.
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Nobody said anything about removing the players, just the restrictions currently in place that prevents them from accepting compensation.

If their value to the University is $0.00, nothing will change, business as usual.
 
bartmc said:
Nobody said anything about removing the players, just the restrictions currently in place that prevents them from accepting compensation.

If their value to the University is $0.00, nothing will change, business as usual.
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Where do you keep coming up with zero? Are you being deliberately obtuse?
 
EdFred said:
Name the three quarterbacks before any of those guys at their respective schools. What was the change in attendance after the arrival of those kids?

That change is about the only real measure of their worth. In other words, the schools are going to bring in the same amount of fans and money to the games regardless of whose name in on the back of the jerseys. So their individual worth to the university is really more or less 0.
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Emphasis mine.
 
EdFred said:
Removing all of the players is different than not paying them.

Remove all the volunteers from the Red Cross, etc... and see how well they perform.

And I never said their value was 0. Their value is equal to that of the scholarship they receive. You keep assigning an incorrect value of 0 to the scholarship. You can't declare 2+2=7 and then claim that I said that was the case.
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OK, so how much do you think 3 years worth of "Exploratory" major is worth to Jameis Winston?

How do you come up with "A Scholarship" as the value? In every contract negotiation I've ever been a party to, Myself and the other party agreed on what that value was..

If all they're worth is a scholarship. The free market will sort that out and nothing will change, nothing. The Universities aren't going to waste money paying these folks for a net loss. If you're right about that, nothing changes... so why the opposition?
 
0 in terms of additional pay over and above the scholarship. I have repeatedly said their worth is that of the scholarship.
 
EdFred said:
0 in terms of additional pay over and above the scholarship. I have repeatedly said their worth is that of the scholarship.
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How do you figure that?

If you're correct. Then you have zero reason to oppose paying them more.

They'll be worth a scholarship, they'll get a scholarship. Same as it is now.
 
That scholarship can be worth over $50k/year. That's pretty good pay. You keep asserting that the scholarship is worth 0.

Why the opposition?

Houston Astros vs. Boston Red Sox/NY Yankees
 
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It sounds like a lot of the opposition is just bitter about the opportunities athletes have over non athletes and that because they gget a scholarship they should be happy with that regardless of if someone is profiting off them.

Well because I flipped burgers and paid my own way into college you should just be happy with a scholarship.

Does that about sum it up?
 
bartmc said:
OK, so how much do you think 3 years worth of "Exploratory" major is worth to Jameis Winston?

How do you come up with "A Scholarship" as the value? In every contract negotiation I've ever been a party to, Myself and the other party agreed on what that value was..

If all they're worth is a scholarship. The free market will sort that out and nothing will change, nothing. The Universities aren't going to waste money paying these folks for a net loss. If you're right about that, nothing changes... so why the opposition?
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Fair market value is defined as the price at which a willing buyer and willing seller agree for the exchange of goods or services, with neither being under the compulsion to buy or to sell.

Who would be the buyer in your world?
 
Jhernandez04 said:
It sounds like a lot of the opposition is just bitter about the opportunities athletes have over non athletes and that because they gget a scholarship they should be happy with that regardless of if someone is profiting off them.

Well because I flipped burgers and paid my own way into college you should just be happy with a scholarship.

Does that about sum it up?
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You said in post #92 that you hated football, but you did it to provide for a better life. If you weren't drafted, how did this help you have a better life?
 
EdFred said:
That scholarship can be worth over $50k/year. That's pretty good pay. You keep asserting that the scholarship is worth 0.

Why the opposition?

Houston Astros vs. Boston Red Sox/NY Yankees
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They could be "worth" $250,000 a day...wouldn't matter. That's the ONLY form of compensation they're allowed to take. I'm sure some players are extremely happy to get the scholarship. While others couldn't care less and a lot would probably prefer to just drop the whole facade of going to class and quit kidding themselves about a degree.

You could pay me $1,000,000 "worth" of tomatoes and if I had to eat them, I'd decline the contract. I have no use for them.

Worth is a relative term. I'm not near arrogant enough to tell someone else what something is worth to them. How about letting them out of the classes, hand them $50,000 instead or $500,000 or whatever the two parties decide is fair.

Idaho Vandals vs Alabama/Texas.
 
nddons said:
Fair market value is defined as the price at which a willing buyer and willing seller agree for the exchange of goods or services, with neither being under the compulsion to buy or to sell.

Who would be the buyer in your world?
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Well, obviously the player is providing his services to the University. Not much different than the guy that comes over to plunge the toilets in the Student Union after Taco Tuesday's.
 
bartmc said:
How about letting them out of the classes, hand them $50,000 instead or $500,000 or whatever the two parties decide is fair.
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Well then just get rid of college sports altogether and let the majors set up their farm organizations.
 
nddons said:
You said in post #92 that you hated football, but you did it to provide for a better life. If you weren't drafted, how did this help you have a better life?
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The networking I made outside of college during my college years helped tremendously more then attending a university. That's quite common. The schooling has helped but it's just a slight edge over people who don't have it. In my field a person with 5 years actual experience is worth more then a paper degree.

Football brings in the cash, gotta have players to bring in the cash and you gotta have THE BEST players to bring in the most cash. Pay'em something, that's all I'm asking. Not 500k or even 100k. Hell, I'd of been honkey dory with enough to cover my rent and food. (Should of stayed in the dorms, but that's a different story).
 
bartmc said:
Well, obviously the player is providing his services to the University. Not much different than the guy that comes over to plunge the toilets in the Student Union after Taco Tuesday's.
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The player is the seller of his services. Who is the buyer? In other words, who pays?
 
Bill Jennings said:
Well then just get rid of college sports altogether and let the majors set up their farm organizations.
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I agree.

Either let everyone eat at the table, or don't serve supper.

A guy just led his team to a 14-0 season, a heisman trophy for the schools trophy case and millions of bucks in Bowl revenue alone.

He's standing there looking at a coach making something like $5,000,000 a year but would have his career smashed into pieces if he takes $200 bucks from a booster to take his girlfriend out on date.

All while Bud Light is increasing profits off his fans.

Corporate heads at ESPN are eating caviar, he's stuck eating Tacos at the Student Union.

Even better for ESPN if he takes that $200. Ratings go up.

The system is screwed up.
 
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