NCAA football and pay for play

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docmirror

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In an effort to keep this out of SZ, I'd like to discuss the ramifications of paying student athletes. I have a girl in NCAA athletics and my first take on it is that this would create a segmented market of kids. Those very large group of NCAA kids in non-revenue sports, vs the very small group of kids in revenue producing sports. Not all Div 1 football programs make money(ex; Ball St), and not all Div 1 basketball programs either. N Dakota st has an outstanding men's hockey team, but they no way produce any revenue over expenses to field the team.

I guess I can understand the big money doled out to the big football programs getting to the kids who are out on the field playing. But - I also understand maybe more than others that the NCAA program are for student-athletes. They are compensated for play by getting a scholarship, and living expenses and that is the way the system works, where they subsidize many of the kids who are not in revenue sports, like women's rowing, men's LaCrosse, etc.

So, what do you think? Should the kids who bring in the revenue from college sports get a cut? If so, what happens when a revenue team plays a non-revenue team? Should players have to share their income with the other team? Should they also still fund non-revenue sports? How would it all be allocated and who gets to decide? NCAA, team, school, boosters, etc?
 
Pay em' and lets quit pretending it's anything other than a free farm league for the NFL.

Maruice Clarett should have won his lawsuit IMHO.
 
bartmc said:
Pay em' and lets quit pretending it's anything other than a free farm league for the NFL.

Maruice Clarett should have won his lawsuit IMHO.
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Yep.


I played DI ball and it's more then a full time job.
 
No they should not get paid above and beyond the free education they get out of the deal. As was pointed out above the money sports pay for the non money sports and if students had to be paid then all those non money sports would simply cease to exist on the college level. The students can get paid when they turn pro and not before.
 
jtheune said:
No they should not get paid above and beyond the free education they get out of the deal. As was pointed out above the money sports pay for the non money sports and if students had to be paid then all those non money sports would simply cease to exist on the college level. The students can get paid when they turn pro and not before.
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Your out of your mind.

have you been a collegiate athlete? How can you speak on something you have no fight in?
 
jtheune said:
No they should not get paid above and beyond the free education they get out of the deal. As was pointed out above the money sports pay for the non money sports and if students had to be paid then all those non money sports would simply cease to exist on the college level. The students can get paid when they turn pro and not before.
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Most of the guys paying for all of the other sports probably find the free education more of a hassle than a form of compensation.
 
jtheune said:
No they should not get paid above and beyond the free education they get out of the deal. As was pointed out above the money sports pay for the non money sports and if students had to be paid then all those non money sports would simply cease to exist on the college level. The students can get paid when they turn pro and not before.
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My sister quit playing softball when she figured out she was working for about 1/4 minimum wage.

NCAA regulations along with the university's policies make it hard to do anything. She couldn't change majors for instance.

She quit.

If you don't want to pay them, then the NFL should either come up with their own Farm League and remove the 3 years since graduating high school to enter the draft restriction. I have no idea how the NFL is allowed to get away with that. Recruiting should be illegal and they should select players from the student body.

Then take a look at Maurice Clarett, tOSU helped ruin him and the idiotic NCAA and NFL restrictions kept him from putting his talent on display elsewhere.

His compensation $0.00
 
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Jhernandez04 said:
Your out of your mind.

have you been a collegiate athlete? How can you speak on something you have no fight in?
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I can see you must have taken one too many shots to the head if your going to respond to a reasonable opinion with a insult. Do you really believe that only student athletes may have a opinion of the matter of paying amateur athletes? As a taxpayer that supports those university and a parent of a student athlete I feel I most certainly have a right to have a express a opinion on this matter.
 
Pay the football team and there will be a title nine lawsuit saying you have to pay the synchronized swimmers the same amount.:D The only way out of this mess is a semi pro farm league, if you tried to start one the big football colleges would have you killed.
 
jtheune said:
I can see you must have taken one too many shots to the head if your going to respond to a reasonable opinion with a insult. Do you really believe that only student athletes may have a opinion of the matter of paying amateur athletes? As a taxpayer that supports those university and a parent of a student athlete I feel I most certainly have a right to have a express a opinion on this matter.
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So your saying you support sweatshops? Because I basically worked 15-18hr hour days as an athlete with about 14 days off a year.

I'm saying your opinion is skewed because you haven't walked a mile in those shoes.

How can you justify making millions off of student athletes and offering them tuition and a small monthly stipend? That was hell. You try working 100hrs a week and getting 700$ a month.

Of course it was my problem wasn't it? Free education and all.... free my ass...
 
bartmc said:
Then take a look at Maurice Clarett, OSU helped ruin him and the idiotic NCAA and NFL restrictions kept him from putting his talent on display elsewhere.

His compensation $0.00
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Clarett managed to ruin himself just fine thank you.
 
Let's see DIV I education costs what? 25/30k per year now?

Looks to me like they are making 25/30k a year. More at Stanford, etc...
 
steingar said:
Clarett managed to ruin himself just fine thank you.
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He challenged the big bad brass at tOSU and they promptly threw him under the bus. Very vengeful of them.

Then, tOSU, NCAA and NFL wouldn't let him play anywhere else.

After that, he did a good job of ruining himself.
 
Of course they could always do what a friend of my brother did:

He got an athletic scholarship (baseball) and an academic scholarship. The athletic paid for his education, and he was rolling in fun money as the academic scholarship was not paid directly to the school, but put in an account with his name on it.
 
dell30rb said:
Most of the guys paying for all of the other sports probably find the free education more of a hassle than a form of compensation.
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So there are 249 D1 football teams with between 65 - 85 scholarship positions for a total of ~18675 players getting aid. Last year 254 players were drafted by the NFL. I think that the overwhelming majority of those players appreciate the free education they got as they are not playing football for pay afterwards.
 
bartmc said:
He challenged the big bad brass at tOSU and they promptly threw him under the bus. Very vengeful of them.
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Clarett lied to his coaches, lied to the University, and lied to the cops. It is wonderfully ironic that his coach, Jim Tressel, got fired for pretty much the same thing, and rightfully so.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
So your saying you support sweatshops? Because I basically worked 15-18hr hour days as an athlete with about 14 days off a year.

I'm saying your opinion is skewed because you haven't walked a mile in those shoes.

How can you justify making millions off of student athletes and offering them tuition and a small monthly stipend? That was hell. You try working 100hrs a week and getting 700$ a month.

Of course it was my problem wasn't it? Free education and all.... free my ass...
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Your story does not match the many others I've heard including my next door neighbor who played football at Maryland.
 
jtheune said:
So there are 249 D1 football teams with between 65 - 85 scholarship positions for a total of ~18675 players getting aid. Last year 254 players were drafted by the NFL. I think that the overwhelming majority of those players appreciate the free education they got as they are not playing football for pay afterwards.
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What makes you think it's free education?
 
jtheune said:
So there are 249 D1 football teams with between 65 - 85 scholarship positions for a total of ~18675 players getting aid. Last year 254 players were drafted by the NFL. I think that the overwhelming majority of those players appreciate the free education they got as they are not playing football for pay afterwards.
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I fully understand where you're getting at, but the fact remains that academic standards are weak for D1 players at the big schools, the guys don't have much time to study anyway and lots of them just do what they have to in order to stay eligible so they will have a shot at pro ball. All while creating millions in revenue for the NCAA and their schools.
 
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jtheune said:
Your story does not match the many others I've heard including my next door neighbor who played football at Maryland.
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Well then I guess he was just happy to be there. Great for him. There wasn't a single athlete I played with that would agree with him
 
dell30rb said:
I fully understand where you're getting at, but the fact remains that academic standards are weak for D1 players at the big schools, the guys don't have much time to study anyway and lots of them just do what they have to in order to stay eligible so they will have a shot at pro ball. All while creating millions in revenue for the NCAA and their schools.
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Your right about the top D1 schools and how their football players skate but what are we talking about here, the top 25? top 50? The other 200+ schools are still giving those scholarships and I don't believe that all the players ignore school because they do realize that they are not going to the NFL and they had better get the degree while they can.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Of course it was my problem wasn't it? Free education and all.... free my ass...
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Of course not, you worked for your degree just like many other students. You worked on the field/gym while they worked in restaurants, bars, whatever.

If you don't like the deal, don't sign.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Of course not, you worked for your degree just like many other students. You worked on the field/gym while they worked in restaurants, bars, whatever.

If you don't like the deal, don't sign.
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You aren't addressing the points.

1. Its not free.
2. Other students don't bring the University Millions of revenue at the rate in which athletics do.

And I can say without a reasonable doubt, the athletes job is harder than any restaurant or bar gig. The only college student who works harder would be an athlete with a part time job. Agree/disagree, no worries... because I've actually been both types of students so I know first hand.
 
docmirror said:
..... How would it all be allocated and who gets to decide? NCAA, team, school, boosters, etc?
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Good point... Does A&M's Manzell get the same cut as the third string, benchwarming linebacker??

Ranking /rating players will turn into a classic goat roping event..:eek::idea:
 
N801BH said:
Good point... Does A&M's Manzell get the same cut as the third string, benchwarming linebacker??

Ranking /rating players will turn into a classic goat roping event..:eek::idea:
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See thats the ticket, figuring that out.

But as it goes right now, if you live off campus every player gets the same amount. I would imagine they would just UP the amount for each player to a respectable amount which will be determined (hopefully) by the amount of revenue each sport generates.

So to be fair to each sport, they would allocate a % of the yearly income to student athletes of that sport. Im not saying they need 10,000$ a month or signing bonuses. But 2,000-3,000$ a month would make it very fair. We're talking about 24 to 36k a year. Thats pennies in the real world.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
1. Its not free.
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I never said it was free. If you read my response, I said you worked for your degree playing ball. And only at the majors do sports bring in millions, and it is usually only two sports that bring in money (football and hoops).

Just like joining the military, if you don't like the deal, don't sign on the line.
 
18 year old kids making $40K a year (the cost of a scholarship + board and meals) is pretty good, especially considering that when he gets out of college, he is likely not going to go pro and will be making considerably less.

Where I have a problem is with the limitations on income from other sources. The NCAA should have no business in a student-athlete's career outside of sports.
 
SkyHog said:
Where I have a problem is with the limitations on income from other sources. The NCAA should have no business in a student-athlete's career outside of sports.
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Including sports related endorsements? Personally, if Nike wants a college player to endorse a product, the college player should get the money just like a pro would.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Including sports related endorsements? Personally, if Nike wants a college player to endorse a product, the college player should get the money just like a pro would.
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I agree with that..... Free market at work....:yes:
 
Jhernandez04 said:
You aren't addressing the points.

1. Its not free.
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How are you defining free? Did it cost you anything money wise for the education you received from the University? If not, then we default back to the other points that have been brought up many times in this thread:

You are paying for your education with your work, just like the kid who works in a bar waiting tables to pay his tuition. The difference is that if he gets sick and doesn't go to work, he doesn't make money and he can't pay tuition. You can always take the time off and recover, then get back to work when you're ok, while still receiving your $0 tuition.

The NCAA should not limit the income of players, but there's no reason for a student athlete to make anything more than an opportunity at an educated career post college. I sure wish I didn't have the student loans I had - I lost a lot of money getting to where I am at.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Pay the football team and there will be a title nine lawsuit saying you have to pay the synchronized swimmers the same amount.:D The only way out of this mess is a semi pro farm league, if you tried to start one the big football colleges would have you killed.
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This was my first take on it as well. If a D1 football player at UT gets paid, then the lowest member on the rung of the women's fencing team at Baylor gets a cut.

Doubt the football player will think that's fair, so wondering how it would be doled out? I like the farm league idea like MLB. College kids get out of that league and go into farm system run by the league.
 
jtheune said:
No they should not get paid above and beyond the free education they get out of the deal. As was pointed out above the money sports pay for the non money sports and if students had to be paid then all those non money sports would simply cease to exist on the college level. The students can get paid when they turn pro and not before.
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Most don't get scholarships. I say pay them.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Including sports related endorsements? Personally, if Nike wants a college player to endorse a product, the college player should get the money just like a pro would.
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I absolutely 100% agree with this. Whatever the student can make through endorsements should be his/hers to keep. However, and it's a big however this is the Camel's nose under the tent. Or, maybe more accurately a back door way to get pay for play. How do we separate the money paid for endorsement, for the money paid for playing ball, and being recognized.

It's darn sad when a person cannot earn an outside income, simply because they accept a scholarship for study.
 
wsuffa said:
Interesting to see this thread right now. A couple of days ago, there was a news story that one of the Big Labor unions was working with some college athletes to form a union - er, "players association" to improve compensation and working conditions for college athletes.

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2014/01/28/college-athletes-take-step-toward-forming-labor-union/
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This could get real serious if the colleges don't wake up.

Any question this is a month making scheme? How many bowl games were there this year? What record did the teams have that went to lower tiered bowl games?
 
wsuffa said:
Interesting to see this thread right now. A couple of days ago, there was a news story that one of the Big Labor unions was working with some college athletes to form a union - er, "players association" to improve compensation and working conditions for college athletes.

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2014/01/28/college-athletes-take-step-toward-forming-labor-union/
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That was the impetus for my thread, but I considered that the union angle would toss it into SZ, and there's a lot we can discuss without letting it end up there. I think we can discuss the union angle as well, just keep it on an even keel.

Now, my opinion is that if you start a union strictly for the purpose of getting paid for play, that would be fine. If you start a union to organize all NCAA athletes, that would be the death knell for college sports.
 
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