NCAA football and pay for play

Bill Jennings said:
OK, then it needs to be level across all positions across a division.

A Div I starting QB gets paid $FOO, same price across all Div I schools. A Div I backup QB gets paid a price, that price is the same across all schools, etc.

Otherwise the school witht he wealthiest boosters wins, and what's the sport in that?
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Why? Jameis Winston is worth more than the guy at Idaho?

And sit down before you read this...it may come as a shock....

THE TEAMS WITH THE WEALTHIEST BOOSTERS ALREADY WIN!!!

Look at Oregon's friggin' Football Complex, any NFL team in America would be proud to have it. It's nicer than a 5 star luxury resort.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Oh, and what the hell, if you're going to pay them, take the scholorship away. The student athletes (cough cough) truly interested in getting an education can buy it out of their salary. Those that don't care or expect to go pro can pocket that money.
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Now you're talking.
 
bartmc said:
Why? Jameis Winston is worth more than the guy at Idaho?
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So, we'll go the route of baseball and have no salary cap. Yawn. I don't watch baseball, I can add college FB to the list.
 
Bill Jennings said:
So, we'll go the route of baseball and have no salary cap. Yawn. I don't watch baseball, I can add college FB to the list.
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Right. What nobody (except register@teamandras.com ) is willing to admit, and why nobody will answer my repeated question of "Why do you care?" is that their reasoning is they're afraid their Saturday beer consumption ritual during the fall won't be quite as satisfying.
 
Bill Jennings said:
So, we'll go the route of baseball and have no salary cap. Yawn. I don't watch baseball, I can add college FB to the list.
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The NFL has salary caps, that the players also agreed to. Russell Wilson doesn't make what Peyton Manning does.
 
bartmc said:
The NFL has salary caps, that the players also agreed to. Russell Wilson doesn't make what Peyton Manning does.
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Right, but each team has the same pot of gold, how they sprinkle it is their business. Same should apply to the new minor league.
 
bartmc said:
How bout we just all agree that whatever you want to do for a living is only worth room and board? Just suck it up and go flip burgers, even if you're horrible at it.

What is your justification for not allowing the universites to pay them?
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The objection is that paying one athlete but not others is unfair. How to do justify paying the QB but not the third string linebacker? Or the best player on the swim team or the volleyball team?
 
jtheune said:
The objection is that paying one athlete but not others is unfair. How to do justify paying the QB but not the third string linebacker? Or the best player on the swim team or the volleyball team?
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Worth

What's unfair is some kid that won't do much of anything getting the same pay as the guy bringing home the millions.
 
I think one of the prev posters brought up how it will come about. The top 16-20 revenue schools will form a league outside of the NCAA and they will offer to play NCAA teams if the NCAA wants, otherwise they will play each other in competition, and offer intramural or recreational football within the campus enviro. Of course, the NCAA will slap those schools, and slap them hard for their insouciance.

We'll call it the "BCS league". All kids will be required to wear the school colors, and be an extended form of booster. It can be a for-profit or non-profit organization, and they will model their product on the NFL which already has anti-trust exemption. Entry to the league will require a kid to have a HS diploma from a recognized US school or equivalent, and be no younger than 17. Players can play indefinitely, as long as a 'school'(promoter) was willing to keep them on the roster. There would be no academic requirements, but the players would be required to pledge their alma mater - as it were, since they aren't students.

Trades would be prohibited except in cases of extreme hardship. This rule is needed to keep the player salaries from spiraling out of control. Each player is an individual performer, and may have an agent. Recruiting is the same as NFL, no restrictions on poaching players but once committed, that's it they play for that univ until retirement or elevation to the NFL. The NCAA will go ballistic, which doesn't bother me in the least.

Now, what happens to title IX athletes at the revenue schools? This sort of comes down to an end run around title IX where the wealth is spread out now, it would be concentrated where the people want to pay for play, in football and basketball. The other sports would wither, and at revenue schools, almost all other sports would be gone in a few years or relegated to intramural or rec sports which might be good or bad depending on your POV, but the scholarship programs would suffer greatly.

Maybe as part of the charter, the 'BCS league' would be required to fund $XXXXX amount of their revenue for scholarships at revenue sponsored schools. That might keep the SCOTUS off their back enough to get approval if they model it like the NFL.

The non-rev school football and basketball programs would surely suffer because the best players would migrate to the BCS league, the scholarship kids would go to the non-rev NCAA league teams.
 
docmirror said:
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2014/...-northwestern-football-players-are-employees/

Gee, a fed agency, meeting in Chicago, hearing testimony from the players lawyers are going to decide this 'union' issue.

What do you suppose they will find???? Hmmmmmm. lol
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I don't know if round 1 will go to the players but I believe they'll eventually get the win if they keep pushing. Then again, there's a lot of old guys in suits with billions of dollars to make sure it doesn't happen.
 
nddons said:
So, college football will now be known as the DFL*.



*(Dumb, Fat, and Lazy, like many of their union brethren.)
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I'm no Union fan, but the NCAA has a defacto monopoly on high dollar value atheletes. In this case, I say bravo for them.
 
bartmc said:
I'm no Union fan, but the NCAA has a defacto monopoly on high dollar value atheletes. In this case, I say bravo for them.
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I have contempt for the NCAA, so you won't see me defending them. I think this is a different issue however.
 
I think this will be a mess if it goes through, but it's not my mess! :rolleyes:
Let's assume the athletes are "employed" by the schools to play sports, all sports will have to be included to be "fair", they will receive a paycheck in addition to their education, correct?:dunno:
Let's pay them $1500 per month, plus tuition, books, housing, food and medical care. That's $18,000 per year in direct payments, PLUS $25-50,000.00 per year in indirect payments, for a taxable income of $43-68K per year. That nets the athletes basically nothing, which is what they get now. ;)
Do not, for one minute think the IRS is going to allow employees of a company or college get untaxed perks! :mad2:
It will be interesting to see how it plays out and how they decide which player gets what paycheck, how much will the starting QB at Alabama make vs the number 2 ladies singles tennis player???:D
Ultimately, we could end up with 20 college football programs and a lot of kids not going to college. :rolleyes2:
It goes back to being careful what you wish for!
 
I don't think he's wrong and it will cause some blow ups in Div 1. I'm guessing the NCAA is going to allow outside income but not play for pay. Once the NCAA lets players unionize it's the start of the end of their power
 
docmirror said:
I don't think he's wrong and it will cause some blow ups in Div 1. I'm guessing the NCAA is going to allow outside income but not play for pay. Once the NCAA lets players unionize it's the start of the end of their power
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With the unionization of amateur players, a whole host of predictable but negative issues will appear..

Scouting rules will change...
Practice rules will change...
Players will get lifetime disability benefits...
Players will get retirement benefits...

And that is just the short list....

the only thing for sure is............... The UNION will get their dues every month.... :mad2::mad2::mad:.........:rolleyes2:
 
N801BH said:
With the unionization of amateur players, a whole host of predictable but negative issues will appear..

Scouting rules will change...
Practice rules will change...
Players will get lifetime disability benefits...
Players will get retirement benefits...

And that is just the short list....

the only thing for sure is............... The UNION will get their dues every month.... :mad2::mad2::mad:.........:rolleyes2:
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These are negative how? Manziel has been estimated to have been worth approx $37,000,000 to Texas A&M? He got paid squat. They sold $60,000 worth of his jersey's alone.

This is 'murica, folks should be able to negotiate their skills for whatever someone is willing to pay for them.
 
bartmc said:
These are negative how? Manziel has been estimated to have been worth approx $37,000,000 to Texas A&M? He got paid squat. They sold $60,000 worth of his jersey's alone.

This is 'murica, folks should be able to negotiate their skills for whatever someone is willing to pay for them.
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That cuts both ways.....

Manziel signed up to play for A&M in exchange for a free college education... He was able to showcase his talents and now wants out to play for the NFL for BIG bucks....

Does A&M get compensated for the 2 more years Manziel put his signature on .. and BACKED out on :dunno:
 
N801BH said:
That cuts both ways.....

Manziel signed up to play for A&M in exchange for a free college education... He was able to showcase his talents and now wants out to play for the NFL for BIG bucks....

Does A&M get compensated for the 2 more years Manziel put his signature on .. and BACKED out on :dunno:
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It doesn't cut both ways. He had no other option. A bunch of gray haired guys in suits with billions of bucks on the line at the NCAA/NFL made sure of it.

What's the problem with allowing 2 parties to negotiate a contract that is amicable for both of them? Johnny Football could have gone to the highest bidder. If kids want to play for room and board and a scholarship, I got no issue with it but requiring them to when I'm sure they would have pad into 7 figures for him... that's communist stuff :D
 
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bartmc said:
These are negative how? Manziel has been estimated to have been worth approx $37,000,000 to Texas A&M? He got paid squat. They sold $60,000 worth of his jersey's alone.

This is 'murica, folks should be able to negotiate their skills for whatever someone is willing to pay for them.
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"His" jerseys? Did he purchase them for resale? And what name is on the front of the jersey?
 
nddons said:
"His" jerseys? Did he purchase them for resale? And what name is on the front of the jersey?
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They went from 0$ to $60,000 in profit off selling it, where do you think the value in it lies? That's just from aTm's 10% cut. Adiddas makes the rest. So who should be getting rich off Manziel's arm? Adiddas or Johnny?
 
Oh, brother. Here we go. Cue the sappy sob stories:

Shabazz Napier, UConn guard, said that it's hard for him to see his jersey getting sold while he struggles to eat, and he sometimes had to go to bed "starving" because he cannot afford food.

And the school probably thinks he actually should walk to the cafeteria like the other students, those racist bastards. UConn should be brought up on human rights charges.

Napier needs to turn in his man card before the game tonight.
 
bartmc said:
They went from 0$ to $60,000 in profit off selling it, where do you think the value in it lies? That's just from aTm's 10% cut. Adiddas makes the rest. So who should be getting rich off Manziel's arm? Adiddas or Johnny?
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It's amazing that Manziel can throw like that when there are 11 defensive players trying to sack him, with no one to stop them. And it must be tough to actually be able to catch his own passes. Talk about quick feet. And when their opponents' offenses are on the field, 11 on 1 is not really a fair fight, but damn, he must be able to pull it all off single handedly. Amazing.

Who knew college football was an individual sport.
 
nddons said:
It's amazing that Manziel can throw like that when there are 11 defensive players trying to sack him, with no one to stop them. And it must be tough to actually be able to catch his own passes. Talk about quick feet. And when their opponents' offenses are on the field, 11 on 1 is not really a fair fight, but damn, he must be able to pull it all off single handedly. Amazing.

Who knew college football was an individual sport.
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What's that got to do with the price of rice in China?

What's your opposition to allowing a player to negotiate the terms of his college career with a college?
 
bartmc said:
What's that got to do with the price of rice in China?

What's your opposition to allowing a player to negotiate the terms of his college career with a college?
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Colleges are lining up to pay these athletes beyond a free college education? I must have missed it.

You need two parties to a negotiation. One party doesn't appear to want to negotiate.
 
nddons said:
Colleges are lining up to pay these athletes beyond a free college education? I must have missed it.

You need two parties to a negotiation. One party doesn't appear to want to negotiate.
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You must have missed it, See SMU, Cam Newton etc.. etc.. etc...

Neither party is allowed to negotiate without extreme negative consequences.

The kids want to negotiate... so they're doing just that. They don't even have a voice right now. When one side insists on negotiating, the other must or do without (Unless of course you're a ...never mind, not going there :D ) .

You think Auburn, Alabama, FLorida, USC, Notre Dame, Michigan etc.. etc... wouldn't line up outise Jameis Winstons door to offer him a sweeter deal than FSU?
 
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bartmc said:
You must have missed it, See SMU, Cam Newton etc.. etc.. etc...

Neither party is allowed to negotiate without extreme negative consequences.

The kids want to negotiate... so they're doing just that. They don't even have a voice right now. When one side insists on negotiating, the other must or do without (Unless of course you're a ...never mind, not going there :D ) .

You think Auburn, Alabama, FLorida, USC, Notre Dame, Michigan etc.. etc... wouldn't line up outise Jameis Winstons door to offer him a sweeter deal than FSU?
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They have a huge voice... All NFL teams need to do is have talent scouts scan the High School games looking for above average players and court them...

You make it sound like if there was no college football, there would be no new players.. I say BS... The NFL has a HUGE investment in their franchises and you can bet your ass they will do whatever is needed to populate their ranks...

Another avenue is called "Walk On" when the teams have try outs... So the talented players DO have a voice right now... IMHO..
 
N801BH said:
They have a huge voice... All NFL teams need to do is have talent scouts scan the High School games looking for above average players and court them...

You make it sound like if there was no college football, there would be no new players.. I say BS... The NFL has a HUGE investment in their franchises and you can bet your ass they will do whatever is needed to populate their ranks...

Another avenue is called "Walk On" when the teams have try outs... So the talented players DO have a voice right now... IMHO..
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Which I believe is also against NCAA rules, you can ask Bo Jackson and how he feels about Tampa Bay about that.

They have no voice in college atheletics. Nick Saban make how many million a year? And the players get SQUAT. They get thrown off the team if they get injured is what they get. Winston, Manziel etc.. are worth MILLIONS to their teams... I don't understand, in America no less, people wanting to tell someone they can't negotiate for their value. Oh and they get thrown under the bus and can't engage in contracts with Nike or sign some autographs for spare change. Seems down right communist to me.

There are plenty of kids forced to work as unpaid cash cows for a university if they want to move on to the next level with their talent.
See the entire Kentucky Mens Basketball team tonight. They're out there raking in millions for UK, risking their health, future AND giving up a HUGE HUGE paycheck because they have no other option. Everyone of those kids could be on an NBA contract THIS YEAR if it weren't for the NBA/NCAA looking out for each other.
 
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bartmc said:
*** They get thrown off the team if they get injured is what they get. ***
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Based on my observations, an injured player that cannot play again (back injury, concussion) will get medically retired to make room for another scholarship player, but they will also retain the rest of their scholarship to complete their education.

I'm sure there are examples where an injured player was simply run off, but that's certainly not the norm.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Based on my observations, an injured player that cannot play again (back injury, concussion) will get medically retired to make room for another scholarship player, but they will also retain the rest of their scholarship to complete their education.

I'm sure there are examples where an injured player was simply run off, but that's certainly not the norm.
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And lose out on the 7 figure salary and guaranteed contract they could have been recieving if they weren't "forced" to go pay their dues in the college ranks.

No, people can and do get their scholarship pulled after getting injured and in many cases get stuck with the medical bills.

And it's none of any of our business what the players and colleges decide on, and it shouldn't be any of the NCAA's business either.
 
bartmc said:
And lose out on the 7 figure salary and guaranteed contract they could have been recieving if they weren't "forced" to go pay their dues in the college ranks.

No, people can and do get their scholarship pulled after getting injured and in many cases get stuck with the medical bills.

And it's none of any of our business what the players and colleges decide on, and it shouldn't be any of the NCAA's business either.
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If you convince the NFL owner's association and the NFL player's union to change their negotiated rule to let players join an NFL team with less than 3 years after leaving high school, it would be fine by me. In my opinion, it would make very little difference.

I find it hard to believe that players routinely have their scholarships pulled after getting injured. Any university doing that would develop a poor reputation and have trouble recruiting kids for that very reason.

I'm no fan of the NCAA, but I'd prefer that the universities go the way of the Ivy League and simply eliminate ALL athletic scholarships rather than have to pay for purely mercenary players, if that's where this leads. Those players motivated only by money can go play for some NFL farm league if that's all they want.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
If you convince the NFL owner's association and the NFL player's union to change their negotiated rule to let players join an NFL team with less than 3 years after leaving high school, it would be fine by me. In my opinion, it would make very little difference.

I find it hard to believe that players routinely have their scholarships pulled after getting injured. Any university doing that would develop a poor reputation and have trouble recruiting kids for that very reason.

I'm no fan of the NCAA, but I'd prefer that the universities go the way of the Ivy League and simply eliminate ALL athletic scholarships rather than have to pay for purely mercenary players, if that's where this leads. Those players motivated only by money can go play for some NFL farm league if that's all they want.
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I agree completely.
 
Great article in today's WSJ by the presidents of Michigan State University and Wake Forest University, entitled Why Unionizing College Sports Is a Bad Call.

"We oppose the effort to bring labor unions into college sports. One group of athletes is not more hardworking, more dedicated or more driven than another. Unionization will create unequal treatment not only among student-athletes competing in different sports, but, quite possibly, even among student-athletes on the same team.

"Our concerns about this movement extend beyond the economic and practical difficulties created by transforming the college-sports relationship into one of employer-employee. To call student-athletes employees is an affront to those players who are taking full advantage of the opportunity to get an education.

"Do we really want to signal to society and high-school students that making money is the reason to come play a sport in college, as opposed to getting an education that will provide lifetime benefits? The NCAA's philosophy, proven by where the organization spends its money, is education first. More than 90% of NCAA revenue is redistributed to member schools, which provide $2.7 billion in athletics scholarships in addition to other direct support to student-athletes. Most member schools depend on this revenue, as only 23 out of 1,100 generated more money than they spent on athletics in the past fiscal year.

"The model we have today enables more than 150,000 young men and women playing more than 20 different Division I sports to attend college and earn a degree while competing—and after their eligibility is complete. Many of these student-athletes would not be able to attend college were it not for the athletics scholarships they received: 15% of Division I student-athletes are the first in their families to attend college. This model provides similar educational opportunities for hundreds of thousands of Division II and III student-athletes every year."

http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304441304579480013097853156?mobile=y

Copyright and POA rules prevent me from posting the entire article, but it's worth the read.
 
nddons said:
Great article in today's WSJ by the presidents of Michigan State University and Wake Forest University, entitled Why Unionizing College Sports Is a Bad Call.

"We oppose the effort to bring labor unions into college sports. One group of athletes is not more hardworking, more dedicated or more driven than another. Unionization will create unequal treatment not only among student-athletes competing in different sports, but, quite possibly, even among student-athletes on the same team.

"Our concerns about this movement extend beyond the economic and practical difficulties created by transforming the college-sports relationship into one of employer-employee. To call student-athletes employees is an affront to those players who are taking full advantage of the opportunity to get an education.

"Do we really want to signal to society and high-school students that making money is the reason to come play a sport in college, as opposed to getting an education that will provide lifetime benefits? The NCAA's philosophy, proven by where the organization spends its money, is education first. More than 90% of NCAA revenue is redistributed to member schools, which provide $2.7 billion in athletics scholarships in addition to other direct support to student-athletes. Most member schools depend on this revenue, as only 23 out of 1,100 generated more money than they spent on athletics in the past fiscal year.

"The model we have today enables more than 150,000 young men and women playing more than 20 different Division I sports to attend college and earn a degree while competing—and after their eligibility is complete. Many of these student-athletes would not be able to attend college were it not for the athletics scholarships they received: 15% of Division I student-athletes are the first in their families to attend college. This model provides similar educational opportunities for hundreds of thousands of Division II and III student-athletes every year."

http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304441304579480013097853156?mobile=y

Copyright and POA rules prevent me from posting the entire article, but it's worth the read.
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Sounds like an excellent argument for communism.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
:dunno:
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Read it, pick up on the key points.

"One group is not more hardworking"

I caught college women's bowling on ESPNU the other day, the team leader was about 280 lbs.

"Ignore the money" and pay no attention to the billions other folks are raking in.

"Unequal treatment" blah blah blah

"Look at all the people riding on the coat tails of the profitable folks."


Almost reads like the communist manifestos.
 
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