Ed Haywood
Final Approach
$10K is a nonsensical number.
Mandatory ADS-B in might be coming
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Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Then we should get busy recruiting oldsters! The youngsters just want to go to the airlines anyway.
What about $2k?
Annual inspection. The plane would be deemed unairworthy if it weren't equipped, if it were mandatory for all planes. If only required for certain ops, an annotation could be added to the plane's registration.
Llewtrah381
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I sincerely doubt this would be the death (k)nell for GA any more than was adding a requirement for a Mode C transponder. GA is dying due to many, many other causes. Incremental requirements like this clearly add to the cost (and GREATLY add to the safety, IMHO) but I’m not seeing how they’re any more than an excuse for people to give for aging out of flying or other reasons. The cost of entry into GA is already plenty high enough for that to be a factor for many - but requiring a new box (which I’m not sure would cost anywhere near 10AMUs anyway) isn’t likely to be the last straw, IMHO.
In fact, GA not only has a rep for being expensive - it has one for being dangerous as well. Which is why parachutes are popular despite their very high expense. This requirement would actually help with that impression in some circles, I think.
As throughout history, the younger generations have different priorities than the older ones. Heck - apparently alcohol sales are down broadly, with wine down 30%, from what I’ve heard.
Given that a GPS isn’t even required for a VFR plane, I’m betting there will be sensible strategies adopted for the planes most of us on this forum fly.
And personally, flying a gyro small enough for me to literally park it in front of my Warrior’s wing but with ADS-B Out, I want people seeing me as best they can. The more people using In, the better for me.
Llewtrah381
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From the cited Avweb article:
“Under the current wording, the bill appears to leave any decision about whether a portable ADSB-In receiver would suffice up to later FAA rule making.”
Now, that’s Avweb, not someone official, but it sure offers hope to me on several levels: first, even if passed as written, public comments, etc. can help push for sensible use of portables. Second, the bill could still be amended to lock in the same. Providing that feedback to our reps around now could be helpful.
Lindberg
Final Approach
The same way it is possible to detect whether you have your pilot certificate in your possession while acting as PIC.
I think what people tend to forget is the addition of ADSB and other technologies into the mix actually goes back to the national air space congestion issues in the 1990s. Because of that congress funded the creation of the FAA NexGen concept which was to develop methods to increase traffic densities in that finite air space.
So while a number of people view ADSB as a hinderance or “death nell” to private GA, its actually the opposite. As the airspace around urban areas get further tiered to handle the anticipated increased traffic, ADSB becomes the new price to pay just as transponders and VHF radios were in the past to use that airspace. Regardless, the option still exists, and I believe will continue to exist, to simply fly where none of that equipment is required except it will just be a bit farther away from those saturated urban areas.
So while a number of people view ADSB as a hinderance or “death nell” to private GA, its actually the opposite. As the airspace around urban areas get further tiered to handle the anticipated increased traffic, ADSB becomes the new price to pay just as transponders and VHF radios were in the past to use that airspace. Regardless, the option still exists, and I believe will continue to exist, to simply fly where none of that equipment is required except it will just be a bit farther away from those saturated urban areas.
Just like people stall it in with the stall horn blaring or land gear up with the gear horn blaring.
MackMooney
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if i read that right, only new aircraft, even if somehow it magically meant aircraft still being manufactured, that wouldn't include me. But also what is this carve out for non tso under 12500? does that mean the gdl 50 i have is good? if so, bring it on, airplanes are frickin hard to see and you probably wont' see the one that hits you
schmookeeg
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Which, amusingly, is one other way to solve the congested skies problem.
My initial reaction to this was "heck yeah" but.. I fly in a thicket of other airplanes and 90% of the country is just empty sky, so the broad brush legislation isn't good here. I don't know why we'd mandate this other than "if you fly in ads-b out required airspace, you need a way to view others too" -- which sorta makes sense to me. Is this what they're proposing? leave the vast swaths of "ads-b optional" airspace alone.
I support pretty much everyone with an electrical system being required to have ADS-B out in all airspaces, but not ADS-B in.
ADS-B out is for the benefit of others. ADS-B in isn't worth anything unless you're going to use it -- and you can't really force people to use it.
If they do force ADS-B IN, I hope they allow the ForeFlight/Sentry to satisfy the requirement. I don't want to have one more ******** thing to maintain when the $400 sentry solution works perfect.
EDIT: Also unless you have a screen with a lot of real estate, like a GTN750 or IFD540, the certified solutions generally suck. I don't wanna look at some tiny ass screen on an expensive Garmin box when an iPad/Sentry/Stratus does the same thing better for less $.
ADS-B out is for the benefit of others. ADS-B in isn't worth anything unless you're going to use it -- and you can't really force people to use it.
If they do force ADS-B IN, I hope they allow the ForeFlight/Sentry to satisfy the requirement. I don't want to have one more ******** thing to maintain when the $400 sentry solution works perfect.
EDIT: Also unless you have a screen with a lot of real estate, like a GTN750 or IFD540, the certified solutions generally suck. I don't wanna look at some tiny ass screen on an expensive Garmin box when an iPad/Sentry/Stratus does the same thing better for less $.
pfarber
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They would need to follow the AIM and FARs as applicable. How is that even a serious question?
ADS-B data IS NOT RELIABLE. Its good, and if you are in an area with great coverage (line of sight, like HF radio) then it seems like magic.
Even now, with ADS-B AND radios people still manage to collide in the pattern. Having people falsely believe ADS-B data and looking at the fish finder vs outside improves safety how?
Rcmutz
Pattern Altitude
I would ask, what problem is ADS-B In solving? Depending on the problem, the solution may not require a certified unit and a portable may work.
Ed Haywood
Final Approach
The legislation was motivated by the DCA mid air between the Blackhawk and the CRJ. The CRJ did not have ADS-B IN, and the helo had ADS-B OUT turned off. Both are addressed in the bill.
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Rcmutz
Pattern Altitude
What I find interesting is I have a G430W with TIS-B for traffic. The problem is, unless a ground based radar is retransmitting the TISb information, I don’t see the traffic on my display. Luckily, I also have ADSB In so, I still see the traffic out their independent of the TISb.
flyingcheesehead
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Oh please. The portable solutions we have today are light-years ahead of where things were when I started flying 20+ years ago, and back then tons of people paid good money ($500+!) for these crappy portable traffic systems that were pretty much what would happen if a strikefinder and a Mode C transponder had a baby - And they gave you traffic warnings only in 8 directions (each 45 degrees) on a tiny black and white LCD screen:
It's kind of like the people who ***** about the price of a ForeFlight subscription. The last long trip I took before the iPad with ForeFlight came out, I paid $225 FOR THE ONE TRIP in charts and other paper junk that's all in the EFB now. And it filled two grocery bags and probably weighed 20+ pounds. ForeFlight and the iPad it runs on, as well as the Sentry, are a freaking bargain in comparison to what we used to have! Yes, overall things have gotten more expensive, because that's what "things" do, but we also can save an awful lot of money now compared to the bad old days. It's probably not totally a wash, but this little stuff isn't what's killing GA.
Here's another example: I wanted weather on that aforementioned trip, because I'd already discovered how useless Flight Watch was ("There's an area of storms 24 miles northeast of some VOR you never heard of, moving toward your route of flight at 30 knots..."). The only option for portable in-cockpit datalink weather back then was to get a Garmin GPS that had XM WX capability. That cost $2400, plus a $50 per MONTH subscription! For those keeping score, only Apple's biggest, fastest iPad Pro loaded with 2TB of storage and built in cellular costs that much, and the highest ForeFlight subscription is more than 1/3rd less than that weather subscription.
Only because they can't afford GA. And the youngsters know that it's unlikely most of them will ever be able to afford it.
That doesn't sound correct.
TIS-B, or TIS-A? The 430 doesn't have either natively. TIS-A would come from a GTX 330 transponder, TIS-B from ADS-B.
What do you have for ADS-B in and out? If you're running a 978MHz UAT only system, then you may not be able to "see" other aircraft without the rebroadcast from the ground (ADS-R). TIS-B is the ground broadcast of airplanes that don't have ADS-B (ie, Mode A or Mode C radar targets).
In any case, it sounds like either you're running 978-only (in which case you wouldn't see those of us with dual-band units that transmit on 1090 such as the GTX 345 or any of the jets which tend to be 1090-only), or your system isn't configured properly in which case a visit to the avionics shop might be in order. Or you're flying in an area where nobody has bothered equipping with ADS-B so all the targets require TIS-B!
Rcmutz
Pattern Altitude
I have a GTX 330ES for ADSB out and Stratus for ADSB In. The G430W does display traffic but not all traffic that is displayed on Foreflight via the Stratus. I may of confused TIS A and B relative to what is being displayed on the 430W traffic page.Oh please. The portable solutions we have today are light-years ahead of where things were when I started flying 20+ years ago, and back then tons of people paid good money ($500+!) for these crappy portable traffic systems that were pretty much what would happen if a strikefinder and a Mode C transponder had a baby - And they gave you traffic warnings only in 8 directions (each 45 degrees) on a tiny black and white LCD screen:
It's kind of like the people who ***** about the price of a ForeFlight subscription. The last long trip I took before the iPad with ForeFlight came out, I paid $225 FOR THE ONE TRIP in charts and other paper junk that's all in the EFB now. And it filled two grocery bags and probably weighed 20+ pounds. ForeFlight and the iPad it runs on, as well as the Sentry, are a freaking bargain in comparison to what we used to have! Yes, overall things have gotten more expensive, because that's what "things" do, but we also can save an awful lot of money now compared to the bad old days. It's probably not totally a wash, but this little stuff isn't what's killing GA.
Here's another example: I wanted weather on that aforementioned trip, because I'd already discovered how useless Flight Watch was ("There's an area of storms 24 miles northeast of some VOR you never heard of, moving toward your route of flight at 30 knots..."). The only option for portable in-cockpit datalink weather back then was to get a Garmin GPS that had XM WX capability. That cost $2400, plus a $50 per MONTH subscription! For those keeping score, only Apple's biggest, fastest iPad Pro loaded with 2TB of storage and built in cellular costs that much, and the highest ForeFlight subscription is more than 1/3rd less than that weather subscription.
Only because they can't afford GA. And the youngsters know that it's unlikely most of them will ever be able to afford it.
That doesn't sound correct.
TIS-B, or TIS-A? The 430 doesn't have either natively. TIS-A would come from a GTX 330 transponder, TIS-B from ADS-B.
What do you have for ADS-B in and out? If you're running a 978MHz UAT only system, then you may not be able to "see" other aircraft without the rebroadcast from the ground (ADS-R). TIS-B is the ground broadcast of airplanes that don't have ADS-B (ie, Mode A or Mode C radar targets).
In any case, it sounds like either you're running 978-only (in which case you wouldn't see those of us with dual-band units that transmit on 1090 such as the GTX 345 or any of the jets which tend to be 1090-only), or your system isn't configured properly in which case a visit to the avionics shop might be in order. Or you're flying in an area where nobody has bothered equipping with ADS-B so all the targets require TIS-B!
flyingcheesehead
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Aha! The 330ES was most likely an upgrade from a 330 to meet the ADS-B Out mandate. It's TIS-A you're receiving. The 330ES does not do TIS-B In.
Do you still get traffic on the 430 when you're near a class B airport? I believe all of the Bs have upgraded their radar and the FAA did not purchase the TIS-A option for them, and not all Cs have it any more either. Not sure about the Center radars at this point, it's been a while since I flew anything with TIS-A.
In any case, the 430 isn't showing you ADS-B/TIS-B traffic, unless you have something else feeding it that you haven't mentioned.
Rcmutz
Pattern Altitude
I fly around the Dayton and Columbus Class C airspace. The traffic I see seems to be inconsistent on the 430W display. Sometimes traffic shows up, sometimes not. Luckily, the IPad with Foreflight is much more reliable and consistent. Nothing else is feeding the 430W.
Nick Geber
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I can see the NORDO crowd grabbing their pitchforks and torches and heading to Washington! What do you mean I can't use carrier pigeons to communicate anymore???? And now, I need ADSB-In so I can fly my Wright Flyer replica in controlled airspace?????? But my rights! My rights!!!! Revolution!!!
wanttaja
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I hope so, and for good reason. My portable works really well, right up until it doesn't and I need to spend time troubleshooting by restarting the EFB / rebooting my phone / rebooting my portable until it works again.
Lindberg
Final Approach
I've considered doing an experiment to see whether linking a description of a rule or the rule itself when starting a thread would have an effect on the types of responses received. But I don't think that experiment is necessary.
pfarber
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Any electronic device can break. If rebooting fixes it great.
If your panel mount dies, you can cycle a breaker and hope for the best also.
flyingcheesehead
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So you'd rather be forced to buy an expensive panel mount solution???
Righteous indignation careth not about the presence of facts.
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New business idea: Ludite Airlines "We fear and reject anything new and different" (I kid, I kid.....)
pfarber
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I don't think its the GPS receiver thats the issue but rather the gear that takes the spurious GPS positions and 'smooths' them out. My iPad location is good enough to put me within a few dozen feet of my 3d location... that's good enough for a dot on an ADS-B in display.
You don't need IFR approach precision and we are not flying RVSM with ADS-B data. FAA surveillance radar has huge errors, there is a reason you need MILES of separation for radar traffic.
Sen Cruz may or may not be a smart man, but I think his depth of aviation knowledge is probably not as deep as it should be to make these kinds of regulatory changes. I mean the Senate gave use 121.5 ELTs and that's been a huge fail.
John Collins
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As I understand it, the original proposal by Senator Cruz was amended by Senator Cantwell. Her amendment makes sense to me and allows portable devices in conjunction with EFB for part 91. I have attached both.
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Start small; what about "bothered to read the pull quote" ?
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Start small; what about "bothered to read the pull quote" ?
I don’t even know what that means
Lindberg
Final Approach
Definition of PULL QUOTE
a significant passage in an article, story, book, or speech that is quoted and used for drawing attention to its source… See the full definition
www.merriam-webster.com
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M2C - My experience is flying in the wider ATL area/SE area of the country. I’m not flying without having ADSB In.
Putting ADSB In / TCAS capabilities on passenger AND military aircraft probably not a bad idea. Make ADSB Out mandatory for all military flying close to civilian traffic.
That said, I’d like to see the data showing how many GA accidents occurred that could have been prevented if the GA pilot had ADSB In.
As much as I’m a huge fan of ADSB In for GA, is this a good idea in search of a problem?
Putting ADSB In / TCAS capabilities on passenger AND military aircraft probably not a bad idea. Make ADSB Out mandatory for all military flying close to civilian traffic.
That said, I’d like to see the data showing how many GA accidents occurred that could have been prevented if the GA pilot had ADSB In.
As much as I’m a huge fan of ADSB In for GA, is this a good idea in search of a problem?
pfarber
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I made a 14 hour VFR XC in a 172 at alts less than 8500ft up the east cost (basically followed Interstate 81). The number of ADSB targets that appeared was less than 10. 0 were anything remotely close to be 'traffic'. Even with flight following I never had a traffic call out.
Even now with my home based Stratux I rarely see traffic and I am still within the 30 mile Mode C veil that requires ADS-B.
ADS-B is probably a solution for something, most likely around airports... but for enroute navigation? I don't see a need for it under 17999ft VFR GA activities. Listening to the podcast Opposing Bases the controllers really like ADS-B for the much faster updates (1 second vs 3-5 for radar) and location accuracy (precise GPS lat/long vs a survellance radar beam) but those facilities have ground stations that make ADS-B work.
Heres a real time ADS-B snapshot of GA AC < 200mph < 18000ft. of NE GA where ADS-B would be required. Not seeing a traffic issue.
