Mandatory ADS-B in might be coming

L

Lindberg

Final Approach
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Lindberg
Is a long way from law, but it's on the table now.


"Sponsored by Sen. Ted Cruz and others, the bill would require newly built crewed aircraft, along with existing aircraft already operating in ADS-B Out airspace, to carry ADS-B In equipment. The bill would also increase limitations on when military and government aircraft can disable ADS-B Out."

avweb.com

Ted Cruz ADS-B Bill Moves to a Vote

ROTOR Act would expand surveillance standards, limit military exemptions, and tie into broader FAA initiatives under the Cruz ADS-B proposal.
avweb.com avweb.com
 
Lindberg said:
along with existing aircraft already operating in ADS-B Out airspace, to carry ADS-B In equipment.
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I assume that there would be a lengthy period between final rule and compliance deadline. For ADS-B Out it was 9 years.

I also assume all the various portable solutions now in use would not comply.
 
I told y'all the end game is getting rec lawnmowers cordoned off the Bravo/Charlies that pedestrians want to live and frequent. Mando panel ADSB-in is not gonna some hangar fairy "skybeacon" affair either. Lynx ngt 9000 is 10k, garmin 375 is 8k, before certified labor of course. 2025-2035 M2 monopoly money, you're looking at a 15-20k hit for the privilege of gaining access to the NAS you already paid for. I call it the Foreflight subscription model for real world flying. Of course knowing the bend of this board, it'll likely devolve down to pendantics on what brand shackles are the most desirable for working out in the prison yard. wE're thRivIngTM.

Sure, if they allow homebrew solutions (essentially, taping the portables to the panel), such a mandate might be manageable for those without Stockholm syndrome. I used to poo poo the rampant income tax evasion that characterized places like my formative home. I was naive, you have to fight fire with fire to get anywhere in a rules for thee not for me world. username checks.
 
Ed Haywood said:
I also assume all the various portable solutions now in use would not comply.
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What portable ADS-B **OUT** solutions are there? Lots of IN, but don't know of any portable OUT solutions.
 
Lindberg said:
aircraft already operating in ADS-B Out airspace, to carry ADS-B In equipment. The bill would also increase limitations on when military and government aircraft can disable ADS-B Out.
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I'm all for limiting the military from turning off their ADS-B, when there is no operational need. But I don't get the part about requiring ADS-B Out in and areas the requires ADS-B Out... Isn't that what we already have? (Sure there are some temporary wavers.)
 
hindsight2020 said:
I told y'all the end game is getting rec lawnmowers cordoned off the Bravo/Charlies that pedestrians want to live and frequent. Mando panel ADSB-in is not gonna some hangar fairy "skybeacon" affair either. Lynx ngt 9000 is 10k, garmin 375 is 8k, before certified labor of course. 2025-2035 M2 monopoly money, you're looking at a 15-20k hit for the privilege of gaining access to the NAS you already paid for. I call it the Foreflight subscription model for real world flying. Of course knowing the bend of this board, it'll likely devolve down to pendantics on what brand shackles are the most desirable for working out in the prison yard. wE're thRivIngTM.

Sure, if they allow homebrew solutions (essentially, taping the portables to the panel), such a mandate might be manageable for those without Stockholm syndrome. I used to poo poo the rampant income tax evasion that characterized places like my formative home. I was naive, you have to fight fire with fire to get anywhere in a rules for thee not for me world. username checks.
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I heard similar falling-sky prognostications years ago regarding mandatory ADSB-out. Somehow the sky stayed in place.

Back in the 1950s, there were doom & gloom sayers of nay, including the AOPA, protesting the requirement for planes to have radios in certain airspace. In that instance, too, private flying somehow evaded the death angel’s scythe.

A Stratus bundle with ADSB in & out sells for 4 AMUs. https://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilo...MI7_nAn7KukAMVEZ9aBR3anweeEAQYBCABEgIHpvD_BwE This is what I have in my plane today.

Somehow I doubt this will be the death knell of private aviation.
 
Half Fast said:
A Stratus bundle with ADSB in & out sells for 4 AMUs. https://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilo...MI7_nAn7KukAMVEZ9aBR3anweeEAQYBCABEgIHpvD_BwE This is what I have in my plane today.
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As stated by others upthread as well, the solution you are citing wouldn't be compliant with a presumed mandate, if it is to follow the ADSB-out mandate case study. What you're citing is affixing existing market portable hardware to the faceplate/underside of an airplane panel. We're all aware that would be cheaper; such an approach was never legal for the ADSB out mandate.

I'm only suggesting there's no current reason to assume it would be different for an ADSB-in mandate. So yes, 10k+ is still the entry point. Perhaps no big deal for you, not everybody is in the same boat. When I had to make the go/no-go decision on ADSB-out, I opted to go with the 2amu solution, and I plead the fifth on the installation specifics. 10k would have been a non-starter; I would have exited over it if I couldn't use the airplane for pax travel in class B/C destinations of my interest, as that was the only point of owning a boring non-aerobatic lawnmower for me at the time.

Of course I'm open to stand corrected on the cost front if they do allow such portable homebrew solution to be deemed compliant.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Of course I'm open to stand corrected on the cost front if they do allow such portable homebrew solution to be deemed compliant.
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They may.

But even if they don't, just like legal $2k solutions showed up for OUT, the same thing will happen for IN. The technology is simply not that expensive to produce. Whenever some techology has become required for planes (radios, transceivers, ADSB-out, etc.), affordable solutions have become available. I see no reason that won't happen here.
 
M20K said:
But I don't get the part about requiring ADS-B Out in and areas the requires ADS-B Out... Isn't that what we already have? (Sure there are some temporary wavers.)
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ADS-B in isn't correctly required anywhere, as far as I know.
 
Ed Haywood said:
I assume that there would be a lengthy period between final rule and compliance deadline. For ADS-B Out it was 9 years.

I also assume all the various portable solutions now in use would not comply.
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Five years from enactment, plus a possible two-year extension. Of course that could be amended. And it provides for non-certified receivers in aircraft under 12,500 pounds max takeoff weight.
 
Umm. you don't NEED ADSB-out unless you go to areas that require it. I live next to few private strips... most are in the 30 mile MODE-C veil (aka need ADS-B) one is not. I am at the one that is not so I don't need ADSB-out. For IN a have a $100 Stratux unit and an Ipad... works well enough.

It would be more happy if they required all AC to have radios. Way to many ppl out there put putting around without comms.

I'd be all in for mando ADSB if they dropped the ELT requirement for light GA AC
 
pfarber said:
It would be more happy if they required all AC to have radios. Way to many ppl out there put putting around without comms.
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Would you require people to talk on the radio, too? What would you require them to say? It seems to me that if you were going to require one or the other, adsb is much more useful.

The bill as written would only require adsb in in areas and aircraft where adsb out is currently required.
 
hindsight2020 said:
I told y'all the end game is getting rec lawnmowers cordoned off the Bravo/Charlies that pedestrians want to live and frequent. Mando panel ADSB-in is not gonna some hangar fairy "skybeacon" affair either.
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Why not? There have always been lots of portable ADS-B *In* solutions, and as they do the job, I don't see why they wouldn't be good enough...

hindsight2020 said:
Of course I'm open to stand corrected on the cost front if they do allow such portable homebrew solution to be deemed compliant.
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There was a portable ADS-B Out "solution" that was basically a big box with a computer in it that you could lug between planes and put on the floor. I don't think it could have possibly been legal, but someone did make it and very briefly attempt to sell it.

Lindberg said:
And it provides for non-certified receivers in aircraft under 12,500 pounds max takeoff weight.
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Thank you for looking all the way into it before announcing the sky is falling! Makes perfect sense.
 
Lindberg said:
"Sponsored by Sen. Ted Cruz and others, the bill would require newly built crewed aircraft...."
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Maybe we're getting into Clintonian definition twisting, but the definition of "crew" is that of a GROUP of people. If your aircraft doesn't have a designated co-pilot (or flight engineer, or gunner, etc.) it is, by definition, not "crewed".

Also, of course, applies to "newly built" aircraft. I suspect adding ADS-B In to aircraft that already are being build with electronic flight instrumentation will have a minimal cost. Of course, if this applies to homebuilt aircraft, it's more onerous.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
Maybe we're getting into Clintonian definition twisting, but the definition of "crew" is that of a GROUP of people. ….
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Here’s the language in the bill.

SEC. 3. ADS–B IN REQUIREMENTS.

(a) Requirement For Newly Manufactured Manned Aircraft.—Subject to subsection (c), not later than 2 years after the date of enactment of this section, the Administrator shall issue a final rule that has an effective date which is not later than 3 years of the date on which such final rule is issued to require that any newly manufactured aircraft (other than an unmanned aircraft as defined in section 44801 of title 49, United States Code) registered in the United States shall be equipped with Automatic Dependent Surveillance–Broadcast In (referred to in this section as “ADS–B In”).

The majority of the bill (the ROTOR Act) is a reaction to the DCA midair, requiring manned public use/national security to not inhibit ADS-B transmissions except during NSSE ops.

There is language to keep the current 91.225(e) carveout and language that the final rule can include a non-TSO option for aircraft <12,500lbs.
 
If it's just new aircraft, then somewhat of a nothing burger. The OP mentioned existing aircraft being covered as well. That would obviously be a bigger deal for most of us.

As for cost, right now you can get a uAvionix SkySensor TSO for 750 bucks. It will WiFi traffic data to various display options, including a TSO AV-30.

I really dig my AV-30 in traffic mode. I feel like a junior fighter pilot with a radar screen. Last weekend I used it to locate and escort my buddy flying into town. :)

PXL_20250926_194535643.jpg
 
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ateamer said:
So, -in will only be mandated for factory-new planes, and small aircraft can use uncertified receivers? Man, they are KILLING general aviation! Absolute murrr-derrrr!
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It would mandate ADSB In for the same aircraft, new and old, that are currently required to use ADSB Out. But we're talking about a bill that hasn't passed anything yet, so there could be significant amendments.
 
Lindberg said:
It would mandate ADSB In for the same aircraft, new and old, that are currently required to use ADSB Out. But we're talking about a bill that hasn't passed anything yet, so there could be significant amendments.
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Nobody lobbies Congress without maximum financial benefit in mind.

Amendment 1. Aircraft shall have an approved cockpit traffic display.
 
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If it actually comes out as requiring a panel displayed ADS-B in, the Avidyne Skytrax 200 sells for just over $2,500, and can display traffic on several PFD/MFD's, and on some GPS's-I know for certain on the IFD series. Not free, but not the 10k figure from up-thread.
 
Lindberg said:
It would mandate ADSB In for the same aircraft, new and old, that are currently required to use ADSB Out. But we're talking about a bill that hasn't passed anything yet, so there could be significant amendments.
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What, in the bill’s text, indicates the proposed legislation impacts aircraft manufactured prior to enactment?

Having read section 3 several times, I’m not seeing what you’re seeing.
 
Tom J said:
If it actually comes out as requiring a panel displayed ADS-B in, the Avidyne Skytrax 200 sells for just over $2,500, and can display traffic on several PFD/MFD's, and on some GPS's-I know for certain on the IFD series. Not free, but not the 10k figure from up-thread.
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For G3X, GDL-50R is 800 bucks. Not TSO yet, but Garmin could sort that out easily. Pretty sure it would not add 9 grand to the price.
 
Let’s not forget ADS-B Out is far more complicated than In: Out needs to consistently and accurately report position, altitude, identity, etc etc etc. “In” doesn’t - and the cost of an In unit failing is to impact one user; the cost of Out failing is much higher.

In a MOSAIC world I’m personally optimistic that not only will existing solutions have a place but this will incentivize more, affordable solutions that don’t involve using a 3-D- printed box to suction cup on the window after Radio-Shacking it together.

I’m not convinced the sky is falling - yet.
 
TCABM said:
What, in the bill’s text, indicates the proposed legislation impacts aircraft manufactured prior to enactment?

Having read section 3 several times, I’m not seeing what you’re seeing.
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Subsection (b) of section 3.
 
Tom J said:
If it actually comes out as requiring a panel displayed ADS-B in, the Avidyne Skytrax 200 sells for just over $2,500, and can display traffic on several PFD/MFD's, and on some GPS's-I know for certain on the IFD series. Not free, but not the 10k figure from up-thread.
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It almost certainly won't. Many, many, aircraft have no place to put a screen in the panel.
 
Lindberg said:
Subsection (b) of section 3.
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(b) ADS–B In Required In Designated Airspace.—

(1) IN GENERAL.—Subject to subsection (c), not later than 2 years after the date of enactment of this section, the Administrator shall issue a final rule that has an effective date which is not later than 3 years of the date on which such final rule is issued to require that any aircraft (other than an unmanned aircraft as defined in section 44801 of title 49, United States Code) manufactured as of the date of enactment of this section that is required to be equipped with ADS–B Out when operating in an airspace described in section 91.225(d) of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, shall also be required to install and operate ADS–B In.

I interpret that to mean an aircraft that is manufactured on or after the day of enactment.
 
TCABM said:
(b) ADS–B In Required In Designated Airspace.—

(1) IN GENERAL.—Subject to subsection (c), not later than 2 years after the date of enactment of this section, the Administrator shall issue a final rule that has an effective date which is not later than 3 years of the date on which such final rule is issued to require that any aircraft (other than an unmanned aircraft as defined in section 44801 of title 49, United States Code) manufactured as of the date of enactment of this section that is required to be equipped with ADS–B Out when operating in an airspace described in section 91.225(d) of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, shall also be required to install and operate ADS–B In.

I interpret that to mean an aircraft that is manufactured on or after the day of enactment.
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You interpret it incorrectly. ;) While in some contexts it could mean that, it doesn't here, since it's distinguished from "newly manufactured aircraft."
 
My probably unpopular opinion: Good. Finally. I hope this passes.

I truly believe ADS-B has saved my life at least twice, probably more. Not everyone operates at overcrowded fields with a bunch of cowboy morons, but I live on the west coast of Florida, so I do. ADS-B is not a toy, nor a government conspiracy, nor a tool to bring down GA through financial coercion, nor an instrument hellbent on privacy destruction. It is a technology that enhances situational awareness.

Just a couple weeks ago, I went to take off from KVNC (uncontrolled) on an IFR flight plan in VMC. When I got my clearance, there was a plane turning crosswind and another incoming plane that had voiced an intent to "overfly the field" and enter the downwind. I visually cleared final and announced taking the runway and started my takeoff roll. All seemed well enough initially, but as I was climbing through 200' AGL at the departure end of the runway, I suddenly got a traffic alarm on my GTN750 (courtesy GTX345 with ADS-B in). The plane that was going to "overfly the field" had decided to "overfly" about half a mile upwind of the freaking departure end of the runway! Oh, and he was already below 1000' AGL. That was when I saw the shadow of his plane appearing to be on a course that would intersect mine. I leveled and after I picked him up through the glare of the sun, watched his plane pass merrily above me, oblivious, easily within 500'. (I didn't count this in my "ADS-B saves" number, by the way. Those were closer calls.)

But yeah. ADS-B mandates are the devil because some people might have to spend a few AMUs to update their prehistoric panels.

"See and avoid" is a great tool, but it is insufficient by itself. Human physiology is ill-equipped to deal with locating, tracking, and reacting to objects moving around at triple-digit speeds in three dimensional space.
 
traumamed said:
My probably unpopular opinion: Good. Finally. I hope this passes.

I truly believe ADS-B has saved my life at least twice, probably more. Not everyone operates at overcrowded fields with a bunch of cowboy morons, but I live on the west coast of Florida, so I do. ADS-B is not a toy, nor a government conspiracy, nor a tool to bring down GA through financial coercion, nor an instrument hellbent on privacy destruction. It is a technology that enhances situational awareness. ...
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Bite your tongue!

Yet another death nell for GA. Add cost and some pilots say "F-it", and hang up their wings. GA is expensive enough. In addition to the initial capital outlay, hangar cost, insurance, gas, annual inspections, MX, flight reviews, medical exams, and more. There are not enough youngsters entering GA to make up for the pilot decline caused by adding onerous expensive regulations. Some may think $10k is chump change, to others it's a significant and perhaps debilitating expense. Frankly, if I was looking at a forced $10k expenditure, I'd walk away and save at least that every year. Luckily, it seems we have at least 5 years.

While it is possible to detect if a plane is n not ADS-B Out equipped, how is a lack of ADS-B In detected?
 
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