ktup-flyer
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Awesome airplane. Make sure you get the 200hp one though.
Looking to Buy (Again)...Recommendations?
Rain leaking into the cockpit. Old fashioned "weather in the cockpit"!
lancie00
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lancie00
We have a non turbo Arrow that we're happy with. Yes, it's an electric retract with complex prop but neither have given us any trouble. Cruise at 135 kts @ 10.5 gph. I know speed is nice but there's nothing wrong with the ride either.
wrbix
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Tiger gives that performance in non-complex.
Adam Weiss
Pre-takeoff checklist
I forgot to mention that tandem seating isn't an option with my wife.
Very cool planes though.
edo2000
Pre-takeoff checklist
Just sold an older tiger (lower 30s) and bought a newer rv9a(upper 60s). Both fun airplanes that fit your mission. The rv is 25 kts faster on 20 hp less, 160 vs 180 in the Tiger. The rv climbs considerably better, too. Tiger is a little easier with ingress/egress, Tiger has a bit better visibility forward and allows you to slide the canopy back in flight for photography(really miss that). Tiger handles like a sports car, the rv handles even better. Tiger has about 4.5 hrs fuel, the rv has about 3.5 hrs. Can't go wrong with either one. Good luck.
SoCal RV Flyer
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SoCal RV Flyer
Admittedly biased here, but I like the RV-9 option. On the trip to Oshkosh, at max gross (plus a little extra, maybe 1770 lb.), I saw 145 KTAS at 7.2 gph and 155 KTAS at 8.0 gph, at DAs in the 11,000-12,000 range. Fuel capacity is 36 gal., so at the 145 cruise you'll be at nearly 4 hours duration with adequate daytime reserves. Save some money and get a FP prop....on a cool day, solo weight, with 160 hp, you can still climb at 1800 fpm! Really a fingertip-control airplane; 1.5 in. of stick deflection will give you a 45-degree bank. Lands like a trainer too...39 KIAS solo weight with full flaps.
Adam Weiss
Pre-takeoff checklist
Great info. Thanks for sharing. Can folks really confirm 130kts for the Tiger? I've been trying to research all day. Saw a few videos on YouTube that show GPS ground speed and airspeed, and they seemed to be around 115kts (one was verified no wind). If it truly regularly cruises >= 130, I'd really be interested.
mr_happyland
Pre-takeoff checklist
I average about 130 kts true in my Tiger at 7000 ft burning under 10gph in cruise...and that is with the RPM dialed back to 2500.
wrbix
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Me too.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
First, if you're going certificated then nothing but nothing beats a Mooney. Guys will gush about their Grummans, but a Mooney will go faster and farther on less gas for less money. The M20C is the most common variant, mine does 140 knots on about 8.5 gallons an hour. Many can be had in the low to mid 30s. The M20E is a little more powerful, goes a little faster for a little more gas and a little more money.
There is a nasty hub AD, most were changed out long ago. M20c's all have metal wings and metal everything else. The most common worry for an old Mooney are the wet wings, if they haven't been redone by one of the three shops that really know how to do it or had bladder installations, they'll leak. Corrosion of the spar caps can be lethal to the aircraft.
If you're going to buy an experimental, there aren't that many that don't fit the criterion. RVs, Glasairs, Glastars, Laceairs, Varieze's, Long Eze's, Pulsars, Tailwinds, Dyke Deltas, and probably others.
There is a nasty hub AD, most were changed out long ago. M20c's all have metal wings and metal everything else. The most common worry for an old Mooney are the wet wings, if they haven't been redone by one of the three shops that really know how to do it or had bladder installations, they'll leak. Corrosion of the spar caps can be lethal to the aircraft.
If you're going to buy an experimental, there aren't that many that don't fit the criterion. RVs, Glasairs, Glastars, Laceairs, Varieze's, Long Eze's, Pulsars, Tailwinds, Dyke Deltas, and probably others.
Adam Weiss
Pre-takeoff checklist
@steingar - Thanks for the info.
I agree. Mooney's are hard to beat.
There seems to be quite a difference in TAS among M20Cs, as far as I can tell.
As low as 130kts, up to 145+.
Are there simple things that the 130kt Mooney's are missing?
Any idea what the difference in insurance of an M20C vs a Tiger?
Cost of annual and maintenance?
I'm trying to cover all my bases in my analysis.
For example, if I got a lower speed (130kt) M20C, then the additional insurance/annual/complexity wouldn't make sense.
If it's 140kt or more, and the insurance/maintenance isn't too bad, then it looks really good to me.
wrbix
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Salient concerns....complex aircraft almost by definition have higher per YEAR costs due to insurance and maintenance. How much? I'm sure you'll get a range.
Once I return to VA this weekend I'd be happy to give you ballparks for my Tiger.
Once I return to VA this weekend I'd be happy to give you ballparks for my Tiger.
Adam Weiss
Pre-takeoff checklist
Thanks @wrbix. And if any other Tiger/M20 owners are willing to share their costs, I'd love to have the data.
James331
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James331
There are for sure older RG glasairs in your price range, and if you only need two seats they'll blow away mooneys and Bos all day long.
edo2000
Pre-takeoff checklist
I agree with @wrbix. This has certainly been my experience over the decades, owning many different aircraft, from C310s to Cubs. Complex retractables were always much more expensive to maintain/insure/etc. than the simpler birds. My experience with the Tiger was very good. It was a '77 with original paint and interior, mid-time engine, and older, but functional avionics. I paid only $550/yr for liability and hull(35K) insurance (I have commercial+instrument). The Tiger was very simple to inspect and maintain, according to my A&P. There is a requirement to remove/inspect the nose gear every year but that wasn't a big job. Tigers do have a reputation for developing corrosion on the top of the cylindrical wing spar, that needs to be checked carefully in the pre-buy. I always wanted to but never owned a Mooney (had several retractable Cessnas and a Viking), but I have heard that the gear is simpler and easier to maintain than most other retractables.
From what I have heard in this thread, I would strongly recommend you try to get a demo flight in a Tiger, an M20(x) and a RV9. I can provide the RV9 flight.
I was in the upper 130's at around 75% 7500-8500MSL (8000+DA according to the Davtron in the panel).
Adam Weiss
Pre-takeoff checklist
I think you're right @edo2000. I need to fly some of these different birds.I agree with @wrbix. This has certainly been my experience over the decades, owning many different aircraft, from C310s to Cubs. Complex retractables were always much more expensive to maintain/insure/etc. than the simpler birds. My experience with the Tiger was very good. It was a '77 with original paint and interior, mid-time engine, and older, but functional avionics. I paid only $550/yr for liability and hull(35K) insurance (I have commercial+instrument). The Tiger was very simple to inspect and maintain, according to my A&P. There is a requirement to remove/inspect the nose gear every year but that wasn't a big job. Tigers do have a reputation for developing corrosion on the top of the cylindrical wing spar, that needs to be checked carefully in the pre-buy. I always wanted to but never owned a Mooney (had several retractable Cessnas and a Viking), but I have heard that the gear is simpler and easier to maintain than most other retractables.
From what I have heard in this thread, I would strongly recommend you try to get a demo flight in a Tiger, an M20(x) and a RV9. I can provide the RV9 flight.
And thanks for the offer. If I ever make it out west again (used to be based out of KMEV), I'll take you up on it.
Years ago, I did a "formation" flight with an RV-7 out of KMEV in my Beech A23-24. He was literally flying circles around me (and barrel rolls around me)
edo2000
Pre-takeoff checklist
Other cost-saving considerations: if you are interested in doing some of your own maintenance, the list of things you can legally do (without an A&P lic.) is much longer on an RV than on a certified aircraft. Avionics options and prices are much better, too.
Adam Weiss
Pre-takeoff checklist
I've been checking out a couple, like these:
https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1379779/1986-glasair-glasair-ft
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...ASAIR+I+TD&listing_id=2270577&s-type=aircraft
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...ASAIR+I+FT&listing_id=2087471&s-type=aircraft
If the numbers are true, they just seem to scream for fixed gear!
And there are a few retract as well.
But, if I could get that kind of performance on a fixed gear and keep my insurance/maintenance lower, that seems like the holy grail.
Adam Weiss
Pre-takeoff checklist
What is the rule for doing maintenance on an experimental that you did not build?
I was under the assumption that I'd have to treat it just like a certified as far as maintenance.
For avionics, you're absolutely right...man I can't believe the difference in price for TSO vs. non-TSO.
tspear
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Timothy
Basically, you can do any MX on experimental. The only thing you cannot do is the condition inspection which must be completed annually.
Tim
tspear
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Timothy
Some more details:
https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation...ently-asked-questions/non-builder-maintenance
Note: just because you can, does not mean you should!
Tim
https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation...ently-asked-questions/non-builder-maintenance
Note: just because you can, does not mean you should!
Tim
Grum.Man
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In my opinion unless you spend the extra cash on an F model mooney or newer I would go for the Grumman. No fuel bladder leaks to worry about, no wooden wing to worry about, no rg to worry about, no constant speed prop. The Grumman will be more spacious inside than a pre F mooney, annuals will be cheaper, insurance cheaper, maintenance easier. All of these advantages for a 5-10 knot sacrifice in cruise speed.
eman1200
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Bro do you even lift
wait..........but, this doesn't seem compatible with mooney owners claiming "nothing beats a mooney"..........I don't see how something can beat a mooney if 'nothing beats a mooney'. NOTHING, grum.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
My insurance this year was expensive, $1400 because of a prop strike last year. Last year it was less, still over 1 AMU. My annual was $1500. The only Mooneys I know that only do 130 knots are M20G's. They're the dogs of the Mooney fleet, with a long body but 180 hp engine. They'll still do 135 knots all day.
Most M20c's will do an honest 140 knots. Mine does, and it hasn't any airframe modifications to speak of. Many will go a whit or two faster, as there is stuff that will make them slicker. That's on a Lycoming 0360, 180 horse. The M20E will go a bit faster as it has an I0360 and gets about 200 hp. They're a bit more money to purchase. These are the "short body" Mooneys, they really don't have much of a back seat. I considered this a plus, since I rarely if ever put anyone in the back seat. Why pay for an haul one around if you aren't going to use it? Also, these older Mooneys can be had with Johnson bar gear. Much less maintenance than electric gear, since there just isn't much too it, nor is there an emergency gear release system (to inspect and fix). Moreover, the flaps are hydraulically actuated. No motors to break or inspect. Very simple, robust systems. Mooneys are complex, but the older short bodied Mooneys are certainly the least expensive of any complex to run and maintain. Nothing certificated will give you more bang for your buck.
wrbix
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While on the subject of back seats, the Tiger has the cool feature of easily removed rear seat backs and then everything front-seats-back transforms into a huge flat cargo space - big enough to sleep in. We carry our two 75# Labs and luggage regularly.
Adam Weiss
Pre-takeoff checklist
This is great info.
Thank you for sharing!
James331
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They are fast, just get a short wing one with the largest engine (and CS prop) you can find.
I really would rethink RGs, it's not going to be that bad Mx wise, and your insurance will just be a little high the first year, the speed and saftey more than make up for it, besides everytime someone buys a fixed gear glasair Wilbur Wright kills a kitten.
unsafervguy
En-Route
rbridges
En-Route
60k hull 900/yr. 400 hrs in make and instrument rated.
Does a Sportsman count towards felinicide?
mr_happyland
Pre-takeoff checklist
My Tiger is insured for 70K hull at $850/yr. 500TT, Instrument rated. I had 0 in make/model. It should go a little lower next year
My Tiger trues at 135 kts at 9.5-10 gph at between 6500 and 9000 MSL leaned heavily. Insured $1MM smooth with 64k hull for $1200/yr. Last year's quote for 100k/1MM was $800. As others have written, easy ingress/egress with the canopy. Great visibility. Sports car handling. 973 lb useful load. Annuals in NYC metro area are ca. $2000 (no $700 annuals around here).
That said, the 4 cylinder Mooney's I fly with outrun me by 15 kts at similar to fuel flows. I'm not a fan of the single door and climbing into what feels like a cave, but if you are ok with treating it like a 2 place then your passenger has the easier entry (better than you be inconvenienced than your passenger).
Fly them all and see which you prefer.
That said, the 4 cylinder Mooney's I fly with outrun me by 15 kts at similar to fuel flows. I'm not a fan of the single door and climbing into what feels like a cave, but if you are ok with treating it like a 2 place then your passenger has the easier entry (better than you be inconvenienced than your passenger).
Fly them all and see which you prefer.
If you buy an RV, any A&P can tell you whether the person who bucked the rivets knew what he was doing. In a plastic plane laid up by someone else, you have to trust that they had the mixture, temp and humidity right. Granted, falling apart in midair isn't exactly a common reason for EAB mishaps, just something I personally would worry about when buying an amateurs first project. Maybe less of an issue with the product of a serial builder.
James331
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James331
And glasair is sposed to be as slick as zucchini on a Teflon pan, short little razor wings and the biggest engine you can shoehorn in that cowl, gearing hanging down don't it that profile
A Glasair Sportsman has a high wing and struts and an optional float kit. Does that mean Wilbur Wright also kills a puppy in addition to the kitten?And glasair is sposed to be as slick as zucchini on a Teflon pan, short little razor wings and the biggest engine you can shoehorn in that cowl, gearing hanging down don't it that profile
mtuomi
En-Route
You don't see wooden wing Mooneys for sale often (no, F is not the first metal one). And most of them don't have bladders. And the difference is around 15kts, not 5-10.
Adam Weiss
Pre-takeoff checklist
Good to know...