How much longer to fix the 737 Max

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by brien23, Apr 13, 2019.

  1. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

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    I doubt that there will be any delay in autonomy (now that little planes could, with a little programming, take off and fly to a destination sans pilot.) Even including the two MAX accidents, we are in the safest period of aviation in history.
     
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  2. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    Well, that depends. Is the standard being able to get it right or being able to never get it wrong?

    More precisely, will the person writing the program for the flight controls know all the fault modes and be able to write an intelligent way of handling them?
     
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  3. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Cleared for Takeoff

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    The general public and politicians have formed their opinions on Boeing and the MAX based on news reports by reporters who have little technical understanding of the subject matter on which they are reporting.
     
  4. AGLyme

    AGLyme Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Analyzing the business problems, caused by business people, is what got Boeing into this mess. "Businessmen" analyzing the aftermath have good insight.
     
  5. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    according to 25.1309....there needs to be a safety analysis on all safety critical systems.....this would be one and that should be done.
     
  6. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Line Up and Wait

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    Yes. If they stick to business. But when they start opining about the stabilizer trim and the speed the crew was flying and they get it totally wrong, they have horrible insight.
     
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  7. denverpilot

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    Not sure that was the point of the article. It even said that for the FAAs part they also can’t stop these sorts of crashes caused by inexperienced pilots who only know how to fly when the automation is functional.
     
  8. UngaWunga

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  9. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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  10. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Line Up and Wait

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  11. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    They were in KC the other day.
     
  12. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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  13. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Cleared for Takeoff

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    Wasn't that a 737-7 MAX in MCI? I don't think those have been certified yet. Also don't know if they have MCAS. The 737-10 MAX won't.
     
  14. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Ahh could be. I’ll check my FB.


    Yeah, pretty sure it was a -7 MAX.

    E671AF29-671A-4A5F-9ACF-2F4760F816F2.jpeg 94E8C0B8-5A8C-4437-9E64-0A482A49FA51.jpeg
     
  15. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    555BA8CF-C07D-4A5E-BE56-A7D67553B90D.jpeg 2605CFE3-E9EE-497A-A477-38D1FBCEF7CC.jpeg

    Ok - to add to my pix from yesterday, another FB page in KC had more pix from the flights in and out of MCI a couple days ago.

    What’s the deal with the main gear doors? It looks like they are missing. Is it just a camera angle?


    Edit: no, the 737 doesn’t have gear doors. I never noticed that until now.
     
  16. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    That's how 737 doors have always been, back to the -100.. another half baked design feature lol :rofl:
     
  17. nauga

    nauga Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    737's don't have main gear doors. Seriously.

    Nauga,
    from where cost is king
     
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  18. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    From QUORA.., seems like a reasonable explanation @Matthew

    upload_2020-2-14_14-44-5.png
     
  19. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yup, I guess short haul planes don't need no stinkin' gear doors.

    Here's an old -200

    [​IMG]
     
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  20. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You guys are fast. By the time I figured it out and edited my post you already answered it.

    I’ve seen the -37 on the ground, from a window seat, and far overhead. I never saw one closely enough to notice the gear like this.
     
  21. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    PS, the Citation X has exposed main gear as well..probably others too.
     
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  22. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    What a machine! I always liked how the old 737 landing lights fold out from the bottom of the flap fairing. Some cool design choices..
     
  23. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Not sure what you mean, the 737's don't have gear doors.
     
  24. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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  25. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    ^I swear I saw one of those landing at Coronado here some years ago.
     
  26. Greg Bockelman

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    So what is the purpose of main gear doors and why can’t flush fitting wheels serve the same purpose?
     
  27. AKBill

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    Gear doors! If the stowed gear does not contribute to extensive drag why have them?
     
  28. denverpilot

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  29. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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  30. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    Yes. But when you put any aircraft under such a "microscope" of global analysis I'm surprised more issues haven't been "discovered." In the real world this item would have been dealt with a OEM bulletin or worse case an AD. I wonder how an Airbus A320 NEO would fair under such detailed scrutiny?
     
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  31. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    This isn’t the real world?

    The one where FAA let Boeing do whatever they wanted for so long they don’t know how to even start getting them back in compliance? :)
     
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  32. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    Well, in the real world, truth be told, it's not only Boeing. You better add Airbus, Textron, Lockheed, GE, Safran, Northrup, L3, United Technologies, and 100s of other national/international aviation companies to your list as they use the same FAA/Designee oversight system as Boeing. As to compliance, Boeing never stopped producing aircraft so they continue to be in compliance with the current oversight requirements just as all the other aviation manufacturers are. No conspiracy.;)
     
  33. denverpilot

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    No conspiracy. Just corruption and hubris. Normal human behavior.
     
  34. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

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    My, you are a bit cranky today.
    The FAA doesn't let any company "do whatever they want". I've worked under Organization Designation Authorization for a large jet-engine manufacturer for several years. Nothing changed when we went to ODA from direct FAA supervision, except that the DERs became RCEs and got much pickier. The FAA supervision was never "direct" anyway; many certification tests were delegated to the company. What Boeing did was likely breaking the rules; going outside the bounds of their original compliance check list. Heck, they may have even modified the checklist; if so, then the FAA was in on it.
    Whilst I've been accused of being cynical on the human condition, I don't see corruption and/or hubris very often.
     
  35. denverpilot

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    Interesting point. Still doesn’t really explain why the behavior wasn’t caught. To say Boeing was trying to hide it would head back toward that conspiracy word, and I don’t think so.

    The emails were pretty full of hubris. Not much other way to describe those. Not directly related to this specific problem really, other than a hint at a broken culture, which I had seen elsewhere before and mass hubris was definitely involved.

    Don’t know how the system works at Boeing but in another life I saw a different problem that’s pretty common...

    Worker A and Regulator A work together “all the time”... majority of projects. Both get lazy. Something goes wrong.

    Regulator B is called in and looks over both their work and is immediately appalled. Writes report for the bosses of both Worker A and Regulator A who both think their respective staff are good at what they do, but got way too chummy and lazy with each other.

    Massive damage control dumpster fire trying to save both employees.

    It’s one of the reasons I won’t allow a product team not to have members of other teams and even departments on their review boards. Still a risk they’ll all cover for each other across the larger company “team” but much lower. Management of both sides has to watch for it.

    Can get really ugly when the big corporate rah-rah sessions are in full swing. Watched one company convince itself because everyone was participating and bought in to a formal quality assurance system that the end result from all departments was actually high quality.

    They started believing their made up self-assessments they gave each other to meet the bonus numbers for the system. Ugly. Capital U, ugly.
     
  36. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    Was a big turning point for me. Initially it was pretty easy to blame poor pilots or a poor pilot training culture.., I was one of them "can't a 'real pilot' just disconnect the elec trim and hand fly if it goes bonkers?" but as we learned more about this it's obvious that the MCAS system was a half thought out, bare bones piece of trash, with just about zero training to the crews on the MAX, and Boeing having, what honestly appears to be, zero regard for a safe well built product. Sure, corporations are designed to save costs and maximize profit, but surely having a plane sitting grounded with lawsuits, a reputation hit, etc., is not a cost free route to take

    These emails and texts are the black and white inside of what the culture of the company currently is.. for anyone who hasn't read them, or still wants to defend a crappy system that killed 346 people, these are worth a read.. even if all the lingo and jargon is not understood, and we give allowance for conversations people thought were "off the record" or just employees venting to each other, there is clear evidence here of what the inside of the company actually is all about
    https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthe...6e3fda752a935bc0df/optimized/full.pdf#page=84

    I honestly don't know how, at this point, anyone can defend MCAS or Boeing.



    upload_2020-2-16_15-51-29.png


    upload_2020-2-16_15-52-37.png
     
  37. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    I don't think it's a point of defending anything as much as it is to find out how the oversight system failed. And while you can cherry-pick certain tid-bits out of the narrative the entire oversight system is much bigger and more complex than a few emails imply or other items publicized in the media. The context where those items fit into the big picture is everything.

    The MCAS option came early on (10 years ago or so) from wind tunnel testing, not flight testing. In it's original form the MCAS system was a robust and very limited system that passed the criteria of a FAA "minor failure" category or less. Unfortunately, as the control force feedback problem persisted and as more people became involved that original safety assessment remained in the paper trail. While there are a number of items being discussed as to how the final MCAS version vs the original MCAS version made it into production, it's my understanding the removal of the 2nd data feed to the MCAS early on and an increase in the MCAS activation move rate late in the game assisted in lining up the holes in the Swiss cheese the most. From what I've seen, I think when this review of the MCAS/FAA/Boeing is over and all the papers are out, the review of the MAX will be the largest CAA review of an aircraft in aviation history.
     
  38. denverpilot

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    By this do you mean the option to order only a single AoA vane on an aircraft where nearly everything on board that’s critical for flight has double redundancy or more?

    This is what I read early on and was just floored that any engineer involved wouldn’t be screaming bloody murder, even if every marketing, sales, and whoever else in the company disagreed and wanted to sell a cheaper version to carriers dumb or desperate enough to buy it.

    Was that article about a single vane being in charge of an airliner, incorrect?

    Just seems incredibly stupid even IF the assumption was that the pilot could override it.

    Similarly when the news came out that nobody calculated the forces needed in the cockpit to overcome the system... my engineer brain was thinking... WTF are all the engineers DOING over there, anyway?!

    Just a whole lot of WTFs, really.

    I can’t even deploy a web server without a backup system ready to go. LOL.

    You’d think airliner engineers and backups would be lifelong bedfellows such that they’d lose their minds if anyone told them to use a single analog data input to anything.
     
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  39. Piperonca

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  40. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Cleared for Takeoff

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    There is no option to order only a single AoA vane. All 737s have two AoA vanes just like every other transport jet I've ever flown.

    Each AoA vane feeds it's respective Flight Control Computer. The master FCC alternates based on which pilot is flying.
     
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