Flew through a TFR.

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by AnthonyS1, Dec 8, 2018.

  1. AnthonyS1

    AnthonyS1 Pre-Flight

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    It's been a week and I still have not heard anything from the FAA. Will update when they call me.
     
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  2. Sinistar

    Sinistar Pattern Altitude

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    Expect another 1...3wks.
     
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  3. Gerhardt

    Gerhardt En-Route

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    Shout out for RyanF. That was incredibly kind of you to walk him (all of us, really) through what to expect, from someone who knows.
     
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  4. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Can you clarify this statement? It seems counterintuitive to me. I’m not sure if it was a mistake or if I’m just missing something.

    I think you believe there are only two options that can occur, administrative and enforcement. So, I think, what you are really saying is that the odds of an enforcement action increase rather sharply.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  5. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    "Administrative Action" refers to a group of FAA dispositions which have lower consequences, such as warning notices and letters of correction, and have no effect in your pilot certificate. They are also expunged in two years (expungement doesn't mean quite t

    If you want to think in terms of a sequence of increasing seriousness, it's No Action, Compliance Action, Administrative Action, Enforcement Action. It's not until we get to Enforcement Action that certificate suspensions and revocations come into play and there are effects in your pilot certificate.

    So, the more serious the incursion, the less likely Administrative Action and the more likely Enforcement Action.

    This is from a program I did when the Compliance Philosophy was new...
    D620AAA3-4187-407E-8A70-CADD55B9FF2C.png
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  6. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Yes, but the way he phrased it could sound like no action at all is more likely if you go into the inner area.
     
  7. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    I think he meant, "the odds of Administrative Action diminish rather sharply" and the odds of enforcement action increase. At least that's the way I read it.
     
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  8. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Line Up and Wait

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    Poor choice of phrasing on my part.

    Mark Kolber's interpretation is correct. My intent was to explain that there can be a difference in how an individual incursion of a VIP TFR is handled based on whether the inner core, vs. outer core, was penetrated. There's no hard and fast rule I'm aware of; it's just my own empirical experience working RTs; but once a pilot penetrates the 10nm ring the odds of a "lesser action" being an option begin to diminish. In other words, the closer you get to the center of the ring, the worse the consequences tend to be -- all things being equal. And they're often not equal.

    There's a lot of discretion available to individual field offices as well as the ASI handling the case.
     
  9. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Line Up and Wait

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    You are welcome.
     
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  10. Sinistar

    Sinistar Pattern Altitude

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    I sense the OP would like to hear from them soon to know his fate. I was wondering if the time for them to respond tells him something.

    For example, if he busted the TFR, was escorted by fighters and met my Secret Service I would think he would have already had a suspension or more just to keep him flying.

    So the question is...does the type of action they will take show itself in the amount of time it takes for them to respond?

    Or maybe everyone is given the exact same process, which right now is backed up 3-5wks. But that would be weird as some violations must warrant immediate actions to keep them from flying.

    Also, this seemingly approx 1 month offset from violation to action does give a chance for a second violation since you can still fly during this period.
     
  11. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Don't. At least wait until it is all resolved.
     
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  12. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Line Up and Wait

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    Too little information provided by Anthony to know for sure. But in my experience -- and again, I must stress this is only my personal opinion based on my direct involvement in this process -- you have a number at the deli and how busy they are behind the counter determines how long it will take for your sandwich.

    To look at a rather extreme example, remember the May 11, 2005 flight in which a C-150 flew harrowingly close to Capitol Hill below 3000' AGL? 10 days after the incident, the FAA initiated an emergency revocation of the PIC's private pilot certificate. That's an example of one of the most severe possible responses at a pretty good clip of speed.

    The typical VIP TFR incursion is usually outer core, often times transiting near the edge of the ring, and there are usually quite a few of them each and every time a TFR goes active. It takes awhile for the field office to work through its list.
     
  13. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Agreed, although I think there are two factors. One is, of course, timing. Your number at the deli as you said, but also the ASI workload. The other is how serious the incursion is. You've apparently see a few weeks. I've seen as little as a few days during the last presidential campaign period.
     
  14. texasag93

    texasag93 Line Up and Wait

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    I would say if this was a parent that was trying to make you think and punish you by waiting (and therefore making you agonize about being punished), it would be logical for the FAA to not contact you quickly.

    You are dealing with the FAA. They are just slow.

    The OP filed the NASA. The OP should take some AOPA online courses, FAAST online courses, and any other online accredited courses. By doing that, when the FAA person contact the OP, the mea culpa will already be apparent. Doing courses before the OP is contacted show that the OP is serious about being a compliant pilot.

    My 709 ride was a well thought out process that the examiner did not want to do. He had never been in a Bonanza and was not confident enough to be PIC if something went array. I laid out my experience land that he was legal to be PIC in that class and category of aircraft. We took off and the VFR moved to IFR. After the flight, he even asked about moving into a Bonanza as it flew better and easier than he expected.

    The FAA personel are human. The OP will continue to fly unless the OP should not be flying in the first place.
     
  15. Passenger

    Passenger Filing Flight Plan

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    You're goin' ta JAIL !!!
     
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  16. Eric Stoltz

    Eric Stoltz Line Up and Wait

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    Haha! TheChive. It's good to see the couch comedians here.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
     
  17. vman

    vman Pre-takeoff checklist

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  18. AnthonyS1

    AnthonyS1 Pre-Flight

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    An update for everyone.. Almost 3 months later now and I have not heard a thing. Maybe the recent government shutdown has played a role in their delayed respone??? or maybe I got lucky and have flown under the radar??? No pun intended lol
     
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  19. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think the FAA has 6 months to start an investigation, but I am not real sure if that is set in concrete because if they can show good cause for a delay, like a government shut down, they can start an investigation at a later date. The clock usually starts when the FAA officially learns of the alleged incident.

    Maybe the shutdown created a huge back log and someone with common sense decided to throw out the lesser incidents to make room for the bigger fish...

    Good luck, buddy. We are all pulling for ya...

    :popcorn:
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
  20. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route

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    Nobody is going to notice unless you’re buzzing and circling the stadium.
     
  21. Ventucky Red

    Ventucky Red Line Up and Wait

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    Not to be an asshat here, but I went to an FAA Wings course this past week... just about everyone, and I mean everyone in the room had an iPad and Foreflight... Forflight will let you know of the TFR's... just saying....

    I wish the OP the best of luck with this one..
     
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  22. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Cleared for Takeoff

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    Hope you are in the clear!!! But that would mean you slipped through the cracks. If they truly scrambled fighters then there has to be a bunch of paperwork that has to get written on I imagine. like others posted. Probably going to be some ground school sign off. Nothing bad.
     
  23. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 Pattern Altitude

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    Maybe it’s ADSB, but when I cross the boundary by only ~1nm (I went back and checked after the flight), I got the call on landing that I had a possible pilot violation. And was called by FAA several days later.
    So for those thinking of being ADSB equipped...might think again.


    Tom
     
  24. ircphoenix

    ircphoenix En-Route

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    Wait... So your cautioning against equipping ADSB is that you willfully and knowingly violated a TFR and the ADSB got you caught?

    What?
     
  25. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    "Willfully and knowingly" is quite a leap from what he actually said. It sounded more "accidental" to me, and only one time (since he said "the flight" and "the call").
     
  26. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    FIFY so it's a little less volatile but still says the same thing.

    I knew a guy who got caught because he had a radio.
     
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  27. ircphoenix

    ircphoenix En-Route

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    Thank you sir.
     
  28. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 Pattern Altitude

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    The ADSB comment was meant to be sarcastic, and your reading comprehension is excellent. I sometimes forget the emojis.


    Tom
     
  29. Sinistar

    Sinistar Pattern Altitude

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    You busted a TFR...the last thing I would do is assume they're letting this slide. Definitely likely that the govt shutdown has delayed this out, perhaps several weeks.

    Also you indicate almost 3 months. Your first post was December 8th, January 8th is 1 month, Feb 8th was just the other day for 2 months. My first call from them was darn close to 2 months (no shutdown).

    You are far better off going with the assumption that you will get the call. So be prepared for what might happen. Have your pilot AND aircraft logs in absolute perfect condition. Study and know every type of TFR, which ones are issued vs standing, etc. Know every possible way you can find out about TFRs. I would meet with a CFI (not sure if it should be your friendly go-to guy or 3rd party) and get instruction on airspace rules in general and TFRS specifically. I would also have a very solid new plan on how you've changed your pre flight planning, etc. Then do a couple flights with a CFI using the revised approach.

    Be MEGA proactive while you still have time. Just think, what if 3 or 4 of the things you do are what they will ask you to do...worst case you repeat it. Best case, they drop a few things.

    I think your worst case is some type of license action. But maybe how it could play out is a ride with a FAA examiner. There's a good chance you would fail that ride and then need more retraining. This is happening to a pilot I met about 2 months ago. I am pretty sure his attitude isn't helping. He was to macho/conftontational. You on the other hand seem more hopeful/afraid. Neither will help your case.

    Find a instructor now. Work up a plan. Execute it. Tell your mechanic the FAA might scour your aircraft logs, maybe that heads up will save his arse.
     
  30. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    This is the primary reason for a worst case scenario.
     
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  31. Sinistar

    Sinistar Pattern Altitude

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    Exactly! The first time I met him you could just hear the almost "F you" level attitude. When I heard later he failed the ride with a FAA examiner (and not one from our FSDO) and there was talk of a license action...I was not one bit surprised!
     
  32. Sinistar

    Sinistar Pattern Altitude

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  33. AnthonyS1

    AnthonyS1 Pre-Flight

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    Yes. Looking for a Bonanza now.
     
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  34. Sinistar

    Sinistar Pattern Altitude

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    Well, if you do get a call from the FSDO (obviously I think you will), that may be one less "compliance' area to worry about. I know of 3 people now that, as part of a PD, had to bring in aircraft logs. But in your case you sold it. So maybe all you should do is have 100% FAA worthy proof of the sale, who has it now, etc. Maybe as part of their research they noticed a sale of your N-Number and that slowed things down a bit?
     
  35. birdus

    birdus Filing Flight Plan

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    Just make sure you don't bust any TFRs during your 30-day suspension.
     
  36. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    TFR was only an hour and a half long?

    "I goofed up on local vs. Zulu."
     
  37. birdus

    birdus Filing Flight Plan

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  38. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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  39. AnthonyS1

    AnthonyS1 Pre-Flight

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    I still have not heard a thing from the FAA about this. I'm shocked they havent called me yet.
     
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  40. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Your permanent record..... along with the time you stuck gum in little Suzie's hair back in the second grade....:lol:
     
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