Flew through a TFR.

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by AnthonyS1, Dec 8, 2018 at 2:35 PM.

  1. AnthonyS1

    AnthonyS1 Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2018
    Messages:
    24
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AnthonyS1
    Titled spells it out exactly... Met with a potential buyer for our aircraft at the airport this morning. We agreed on a price and we decided to fly the airplane to another airport (KPNE) 12 miles away so he could do his pre buy. I take off at my airport (N14) which is uncontrolled, get to about 1500agl and call the tower of the destination airport (KPNE) to request a full stop. Tower responds umm are you aware of the TFR? Your supposed to be on a special transponder code. I reply uh no maybe I should return to my home airport??? ( I was only about 3 or 4 miles away from it at this point) tower replied I would suggest that. I re enter the pattern at my home airport and hear on the unicom the airport ops guy calling me asking if I'm landing because philly approach just called saying I was in the TFR and fighters are on their way to intercept me... I land and the the ops guys gIve me a phone number from Philly approach with instructions for me to call them immediately. I learn there is a 30mile wide TFR around Philly for the president.. it blankets my home airport... well I'm screwed I think. I call philly approach and they said they just need to take some information for a possible pilot deviation. He wanted to know my name info and why I was flying. I explain everything and he said the FSDO will mostly call me. Hes only their to collect my information...

    Well how screwed am I? I did a quick Google search that ended up with 100k in fines, possible prison time, and me losing my license. Yes I'm an idiot, yes I should have got a wx brief or at least glanced at foreflight. I wasnt even planning on flying that day because the guy coming to look at the plane didnt have time to fly, he just wanted to look the plane over and schedule a pre buy assuming everything looked well. I guess looking outside and seeing clear blue skies made me feel safe enough to fly 12 miles but clearly that was a major mistake.. I'm waiting on a call from the FSDO.. will they call me today or Monday? Anyone have any experience with this??? I'm ****ting bricks right now.
     
  2. evapilotaz

    evapilotaz Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    2,492
    Location:
    Gilbert AZ. VFR All Year Baby
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Drone airspace abuser
    Oh crap I hope they just slap your hand and call it a day and lesson learned
     
  3. FlySince9

    FlySince9 En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,627
    Location:
    Huntersville, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jerry
    I have no official knowledge, but I wouldn't worry too much... Innocent enough and no ill intent. The big fines and jail time are for bigger fish than you...
     
    steviedeviant likes this.
  4. Bobanna

    Bobanna Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    750
    Location:
    Omaha
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bobanna
    Do you have a place to stay in Mexico? Get and file an ASRS form (this is your official story and confession: don't go changing it...sounds like an innocent error to me).
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018 at 3:30 PM
    James331 likes this.
  5. AnthonyS1

    AnthonyS1 Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2018
    Messages:
    24
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AnthonyS1
    I really hope your right. I just filed a NASA report.
     
  6. Arrow115

    Arrow115 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    219
    Location:
    The Woodlands, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Chris
    I would have filed a nasa report as well. May not help but can’t hurt.

    I would be open and honest with them and hope the “kinder and gentler” FAA just has a talk with you about the importance of flight briefings.

    Based on past TFR violations that I have read about, I suspect a 30 day suspension is probably your worst case.

    I would be honest, open and humble with them.
     
  7. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    4,431
    Location:
    Fuquay Varina, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brian Flynn
    How did you not know about the TFR? That's going to be a question that comes up.
     
  8. FlySince9

    FlySince9 En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,627
    Location:
    Huntersville, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jerry
    wow...you timed that perfectly... it was only valid for 1.5 hours...
     
    ircphoenix and aftCG like this.
  9. Pugs

    Pugs Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2018
    Messages:
    14
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pugs
    And call AOPA legal (assuming you're a member)
     
  10. teejayevans

    teejayevans Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2013
    Messages:
    1,972
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom
    You will be contacted by FAA, you’ll be asked to explain what happened, don’t lie, step up say you screwed up by not doing a proper flight planning.
    They will send you a list of online courses, you’ll have to take a minimum number, after passing them, you’ll be free to go.
     
    steviedeviant likes this.
  11. Salty

    Salty En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    2,701
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    My cousin did this more than a decade ago now and lost her license for 6 months. She was intercepted and escorted to a military base for debriefing so you might get off easier, but I kind of doubt it in today’s climate.

    Frankly if they scrambled jets because of you, I’d be amazed if nothing happened.
     
  12. biplanebob

    biplanebob Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    116
    Location:
    PA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    biplanebob
    Be pro-active and take some online courses about pre flight briefing prior to being contacted by the FSDO.
     
  13. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Messages:
    14,294
    Location:
    kojc, kixd, k34
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Matthew
    The Army/Navy game is going on in Philadelphia right now, the President is there.

    edit: somewhere, somehow, I got signed up for email TFR notices. I think it's AOPA. I got one a couple days ago when the President was coming to KC yesterday.

    This won't help you now, but it's a good way to get a heads up.
     
  14. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    10,294
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    eman1200
    “Lawyer up”
     
  15. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    913
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    benyflyguy
    Man that blows. Keep us posted on the end result. Hope it didn’t sour the potential sale though
     
  16. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    17,791
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    The fact that you landed before the jets is good, now if they actually did send the jets up, well that might not be too good.

    You did the NASA, don’t go trying to change your story, I’d also look into a aviation attorney, AOPA pre paid legal is kinda a joke, I’d also imagine these days where if the president even farts you get a million mile TFR, this might be more common than you think.
     
    ircphoenix and RDUPilot like this.
  17. AnthonyS1

    AnthonyS1 Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2018
    Messages:
    24
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AnthonyS1
    I'll have to look into this. Sounds like a good idea.

    I called the guy and told him I wasn't going to make it KPNE with the plane. He felt horrible that is happened to me and then laughed saying thank god I wasn't in the plane with you.

    What will a lawyer do for me?
     
  18. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    17,791
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Well when the government might not have your best interests in mind, that’s what god made lawyers and CPAs for.
     
  19. PlasticCigar

    PlasticCigar Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2018
    Messages:
    14
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Plastic Cigar
    Might be helpful to go do some ground and flight instruction with a CFI as well. Based on what you said you screwed up as they can easily point out that you didn’t meet the requirements of preflight weather and flight planning (not that this doesn’t happen every day, you just happened to be the one in a million guy that does it during a TFR).

    NASA report is a great idea (not sure if posting about it online is, but the cat’s already out of the bag). Since it sounds pretty clear that you screwed up and that it was unintentional I think anything you can do to show the FAA that you learned your lesson and won’t do that again will work in your favor. Online courses, instruction from a CFI, etc should all help you out. Do as much as you can BEFORE they meet with you and have documentation.

    I have ForeFlight on my phone and two iPads and an ADS-B receiver. All good things to have these days in the world of TFRs.

    Good luck with the sale and the FAA. We all screw up sometime. At least no one got hurt and you live to fly another day.
     
  20. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2012
    Messages:
    3,441
    Location:
    Hopewell Jct, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shepherd
    Let me know where they lock you up. I'll bake you a cake with a file in it.
     
    AKBill, Flocker, RDUPilot and 5 others like this.
  21. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2018
    Messages:
    839
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kenny Phillips
    Which was the innocent error? Failing to gather all needed information before a flight, or violating a TFR?
     
    ircphoenix, Groundpounder and KA550 like this.
  22. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2017
    Messages:
    2,019
    Location:
    Owensboro, KY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Skyrys62
    Use a credit card to pay the fine, then do a charge back...
    I hear it works wonderfully. ;)

    Be sure to wear an I love Trump t-shirt when you go to talk to them.
     
  23. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Messages:
    21,743
    Location:
    DC Suburbs
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bill S.
    Presidential TFR.

    The FSDO may not have much discretion - the security folks dictate how penalties are handled. At one time the word was that it was a pretty much mandatory minimum 30 day suspension in the DC area. No personal experience.
     
  24. Bobanna

    Bobanna Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    750
    Location:
    Omaha
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bobanna
     
  25. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    5,959
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kritchlow
    Not checking weather for a 12 mike flight is one thing (even though it should be done), but not checking NOTAMS.... Those can pop up anytime. Runway closures, TFR’s, temporary tower frequency, any number of things.
     
    ircphoenix, Kenny Phillips and KA550 like this.
  26. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    17,791
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    OP should get foreflight or something on his phone, takes like 20 seconds to do a quick check for a short hop like that.
     
  27. asicer

    asicer En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,899
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    asicer
    Bookmarking skyvector.com on the phone's browser usually works too.
     
    overdrive148 and James331 like this.
  28. teejayevans

    teejayevans Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2013
    Messages:
    1,972
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom
    BTW, it could take a week for the bureaucracy to makes to you, they will call you first, then interview you over the phone.
     
  29. biplanebob

    biplanebob Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    116
    Location:
    PA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    biplanebob
    There was a VIP TFR bust about a year and a half ago, by a pilot out of Carlisle, PA , story and Link attached :
    hangaround.co/2017/10/05/flew-presidential-tfr/

    The pilot owned up to the mistake, was co-operative with the FAA, it ended well.
     
  30. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    17,791
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Some of my co workers have good luck with the fltplan app too as far as free goes.
     
  31. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2017
    Messages:
    347
    Location:
    Indian Mound, TN
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mooney Fan
    A speaker at OSH in the AOPA tent for Bahama's 101 said if they have to scramble the ready birds you will get the bill for the flight. 25K plus. Don't know if they do same for TFR bust. I take it your local field has no AWOS? You might have caught it there if they included the TFR
     
  32. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2008
    Messages:
    12,734
    Location:
    mass fla
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ron keating
    Hopefully they will treat it as a simple pilot deviation,which usually ends up with re training. This goes above the local ATC.
     
  33. Bobanna

    Bobanna Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    750
    Location:
    Omaha
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bobanna
    OK, OK. This is a good example of why we should always strive to be good, detail-oriemted pilots. Your point about NOTAMS is particularly germane. Thanks.
     
    woodchucker likes this.
  34. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    10,294
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    eman1200
    I went to get fuel once and the self serve was inop. apparently they notam'd it, so I feel your pain bruh. it's kinda the same thing.
     
    aggie06, ircphoenix and Salty like this.
  35. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages:
    3,176
    Location:
    A Rubber Room
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cli4ord
    Admit to nothing, deny everything, demand proof, claim you had a certain Senator from Oklahoma with you.
     
  36. Salty

    Salty En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    2,701
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    Just don’t leave your plane parked on clip’s ramp, whatever you do. :p
     
  37. AnthonyS1

    AnthonyS1 Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2018
    Messages:
    24
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AnthonyS1
    Hopefully I hear sooner than later. The wait is going to be painful.. The ops guy said the approach controller told him jets were sent to intercept me. Is it possible they were already in the air due to the army navy game? I really hope I'm not expected to pay a 25k tab.. I read the story about the guy in PA... made me feel a little bit better. I always have my ipad with me to fly but I didnt even bring it to the airport because I want planning on flying..

    Wanted to go check out this bonanza for sale next weekend.. looks like gonna have to hold off on that. I really just hope I will get the terms of my fate on Monday and not 2 weeks from now. Thanks for the advice everyone.
     
  38. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    5,959
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kritchlow
    I highly doubt you will have a final verdict by Monday. My guess is it may take a couple of months for it to be completely resolved.
     
  39. aftCG

    aftCG Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2015
    Messages:
    156
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    aftCG
    You can probably pay the fines off by instructing under the table, or giving sight seeing rides without a commercial ticket.
     
    TysonG and skier like this.
  40. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    9,799
    Location:
    NM or the emergency room...
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Billy
    If it is a phone call it won't come on a weekend or holiday. It will probably take at least 2-4 weeks for the feds to get their notes together. First comes a phone call basically making sure you are the right person, and then explaining what happens next. You may be asked to write a quick paragraph giving your side of the story. Don't do it. That is just a quick confession from you to make their job easier. Don't refuse, at the very least say you will see what you can come up with.

    Then about 4 to 6 weeks later you will get a registered letter from the FAA, a Notice of Proposed Certificate Action from regional, in the letter they will throw the book at you with probably careless and reckless (91.13[a]), flying into a TFR, failing to do pre flight planning and a 120 to 180 day suspension. Some folks will tell you that hiring a lawyer will only pizz off the FAA. Well, the FAA has thousands of lawyers working for them so why shouldn't you have just one, if just only to advise you. I mean the violation is pretty cut and dry. You won't get a verbal spanking over the phone.

    After the Proposed Certificate Action letter, you will have a choice. You can accept their terms or ask for an informal conference, usually done over the phone. Then this is where a lawyer helps you to negotiate the punishment. The informal conference will be with a FAA lawyer, so remember that this is a civil, not criminal matter. They do not have to advise you of your rights. They know all the tricks to get you to confess. At this point negotiation is the game being played. Be professional. Don't argue. Ask questions if you do not understand something. You want the punishment to be as less as possible, the FAA lawyer wants to show something was done. Understand it was the Secret Service, not the TSA, that requested that the FAA impose a suspension for even first-time TFR violators. In most cases the FAA assumes you are a pilot who has unintentionally made a mistake, and that you will benefit from counseling or training to mend your ways. The Secret Service assumes you are a potential threat. Understandable but it could learn from the FAA's experience that a softer glove is more effective.

    I am guessing you just hold a PPL so then this may turn into an educational moment instead of punishment. Hopefully all you will have to do some remedial training with an instructor.

    Filing a NASA form is good. It won't stop the violation from going on your record but for most offenses this will waive a suspension.

    Good luck to ya bud. This won't be fun and painless. And keep us informed.