Flew through a TFR.

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by AnthonyS1, Dec 8, 2018.

  1. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    "Invulnerability" is an FAA-identified hazardous attitude. The way they use it, it's a sort of shorthand for thinking/feeling/acting like you're invulnerable, which is an obviously hazardous attitude to have.

    See Figure 2-4:

    https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/media/04_phak_ch2.pdf
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
  2. Sundancer

    Sundancer En-Route

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    Sounds like he's re-spewng the FAA part line, IRT "hazadous attitude", etc. Another set of buzzwords to get a SES promotion. . .speaking to the lowest common denominator, "full of sound and fury, and signifying nothing".
     
  3. Silvaire

    Silvaire En-Route

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    It's kind of a bummer you have to go through all this and don't get to tell everyone the story about when you were intercepted by two F16's :cool:
     
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  4. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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    So people here haven't exactly been very helpful - a few have, but most think they're being cute.

    It's not the end of the world. Be humble and contrite and ready to admit that you messed up - I already hear that in you. Do that and you'l likely fall into the compliance program where they want you to learn not to do it again rather than punish you. It might help if you commit to doing a short talk at a pilot meeting of some kind where you tell your story and remind others to call for a briefing. I know you've already helped some here, including me, remember why we commit to doing telephone briefings before every flight.

    Take a deep breath, it's a civil case and you clearly didn't intend to do it. Worst situation, the guidelines say a 30-90 day suspension with no civil penalty, but even that is unlikely. For comparison, Failure to Comply with VFR Cruising Altitudes carries the same penalty.

    https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/FAA_Order_2150_3B_W-Chg_12.pdf
     
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  5. EvilEagle

    EvilEagle Cleared for Takeoff

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    It's really not a training square for us. It's a pain in the rear; but it's what we're paid to do. When you have an active scramble there is nothing relaxed or "for the pilots" for that sortie. You have 13 bosses on 7 different frequencies all trying to get you to do different things and do them 5 mins ago.

    Some jack-wagon at KFPR Customs told me and my buddy that they could scramble on us and send us a bill after we flew back from the Bahamas in formation. We laughed it off, but the ANG does charge the secret service for flying hours used ISO TFR enforcement so I guess it could happen... $20k/hour per jet for Eagles this year - that would sting a bit.
     
  6. Gucci Pilot

    Gucci Pilot Pattern Altitude

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    With how much he is on the move, I make sure to check TFRs and NOTAMS every flight. Especially here in the Northeast, even if I am going from KVAY to N14. Use to not be a problem when I learned to fly 10 years ago in the midwest. President didn't usually make his way out there.
     
  7. IK04

    IK04 Line Up and Wait

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    Having been involved with just such a situation, I can tell you that the FSDO safety inspectors will ask a few simple questions about your understanding of how TFRs work. After that they will assign you some sort of remedial training, such as completing some online safety training as well as the entire TFR and SFAR classes. They will want some kind of proof that you have been counseled, so if you are a member of a club or flying organization, someone else will vouch for you. Otherwise, they will see your participation on the FAA wings page, or ask you to send them a copy of your completion documentation.

    That's all. No prison, no Secret Service. Don't submit a NASA report because nothing happened.

    When I was in the Army, I was asked to provide and document additional training as the Standardization Instructor Pilot for one of my guys who wandered into some sensitive airspace. I was given a phone number and I called them when it was done. The FAA rep said "thanks, good job." That's all...

    Just don't do it twice!
     
  8. Stephen Shore

    Stephen Shore Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Because some of these threads are very informative and useful to a lot of us. The more informative threads can be 2-5 pages in length and when half of the replies are wise asz remarks from frustrated wanna be comedians, it can double the time needed to get through these threads and actually glean useful information.

    Maybe there should be a new category for threads - "Funny and Witty Pilot Topics"?
     
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  9. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    take my wife, please!
     
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  10. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    1. Calm you down.
    2. Give you a realistic appraisal of the situation based on experience.
    3. Provide a strategy which will put you in the best position if and when the FAA wants to all with you.
    Some people would be happy to pay for that (or use their AOPA plan benefit). Others not so much. If I believed a lot of the comments on this thread, I'd be worried too.
     
  11. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    aren't you just a paralegal? :)
     
  12. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I take it you're joking?
     
  13. ircphoenix

    ircphoenix En-Route

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    Did the smiley face give it away? ;)

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
     
  14. sarangan

    sarangan Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Invulnerability is an FAA-defined phrase. My personal opinion is that regardless of the phrase you use to describe it, this aspect is one of the top reasons for pilots getting into trouble. If one thing that NTSB and ASRS reports have taught us, it is that everyone regardless of experience is vulnerable to making mistakes. We can attempt to correct that only after recognizing that vulnerability within us. Dismissing it as it won't happen to me because I have more experience, or that I am more careful, is how this invulnerability unravels itself.

    The reason I brought this up is because of the comments I saw posted in this thread, in response to an incident that can happen to any of us.
     
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  15. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Almost. (If it had been a "wink" smiley, then I would have known for sure! :))

    Sent from My HP ENVY using Firefox ;)
     
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  16. Plano Pilot

    Plano Pilot Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I agree with the rest of your post but not this.
     
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  17. ircphoenix

    ircphoenix En-Route

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    I agree with most of this except for the part where it could happen to me. ;D

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
     
  18. Morgan3820

    Morgan3820 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Or move to a more serious forum where comedians are not tolerated. I like the banter.
     
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  19. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    You are VFR at less than 3000 ft AGL you can’t see and avoid a >30,000 seat stadium by 3 miles?

    THIS FLIGHT PROHIBITION IS IN EFFECT ONE HOUR BEFORE THE SCHEDULED START UNTIL ONE HOUR AFTER THE END OF A QUALIFYING EVENT. THIS FLIGHT PROHIBITION APPLIES TO ALL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS (INCLUDING TRAINING, PARACHUTE JUMPING, AND UNMANNED AIRCRAFT SYSTEMS - INCLUDING MODEL AIRCRAFT FLIGHTS) UNLESS THE AIRCRAFT OPERATOR MEETS AT LEAST ONE OF THE FOLLOWING REQUIREMENTS: A) THE AIRCRAFT OPERATION HAS BEEN AUTHORIZED BY ATC FOR OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY PURPOSES, INCLUDING AUTHORIZATION OF FLIGHTS SPECIFICALLY ARRIVING AT OR DEPARTING FROM AN AIRPORT DESIGNATED BY ATC USING STANDARD ATC PROCEDURES AND ROUTES;
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  20. Gerhardt

    Gerhardt En-Route

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    .jpg format, so it will open on any computer. He probably won't be allowed conjugal visits.
     
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  21. ScottinIowa

    ScottinIowa Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Did anybody call you this week?
     
  22. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    The stadium ones are easy peasy. TCU is "in the way" of approaching KFTW from the South. Texas A&M is right next to KCCL. UNT is a couple miles from KDTO.

    None are hard to get to on game day.
     
  23. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    This year I was planning to go to a local airport for some pattern work on a nice Saturday afternoon. I ended up not going for some reason. I didn't even think about there being a college football game that day and that airport is right on the edge of the stadium TFR. The stadium is roughly on the opposite side of the airport from where I would have approached. I always check online for TFRs, there were none other than the general stadium TFR. If I really had taken the flight I like to think that I would have considered there might be a football game that day, but I'll never know.
     
  24. NoHeat

    NoHeat En-Route

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    Hire an aviation lawyer to advise you. Pick one who has previous experience with VIP TFR busts, if possible.

    This is a serious situation, one where you don’t want to rely on free advice from some guy on the internet.

    A TFR bust for the president is more serious than other TFR busts, as it typically is escalated to the level above a FSDO. Some of the advice in this thread might be ok for a non-VIP bust, like a stadium bust. This is different— hire a lawyer to advise you before you speak.

    On the COPA forum there’s an aviation attorney who has represented pilots with TFR busts, and it cost the pilot nothing if they were on the AOPA legal plan, which is cheap.

    In one best-possible-outcome case, the attorney found a technicality with the radar data, and since the pilot had (on the attorney’s advice) not yet confessed, the case ended with no discipline, and moreover no out of pocket expenses since the pilot had been paying for AOPA legal.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  25. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    The worst advice I have ever heard.
     
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  26. ahypnoz

    ahypnoz Pre-Flight

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    I personally like the “funny comments” interspersed between the good advice, it makes reading the thread much more interesting IMHO.

    It is kind of like watching the super bowl and then looking foreword to the funny commercials, in between the game play.
     
  27. danhagan

    danhagan Pattern Altitude

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    You're lucky OURS is at the edge of the Class C, and since "you be talkin' to ATC" no worries. SunBowl is hard for non-locals to see nestled between a couple of mountain peaks until less than 3 miles.
     
  28. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    It’s been a long time since I’ve used a VFR sectional, and I can’t remember if outdoor stadiums are depicted. I do remember outdoor theatres were depicted, and that shows just how long ago I’m talking about.
     
  29. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    upload_2018-12-14_13-43-31.jpeg
     
  30. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Foreflight gives you a nice little circle and turns colors so you know if the TFR is active or not.
     
  31. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I wondered how they know when a stadium TFR is active - what if the game goes extra innings or overtime or a rain delay, for example. They know when the event is scheduled to start but they don't know when the event ends, they have a default of a 6 hr duration.

    https://blog.foreflight.com/2014/06/12/stadium-tfrs/

    >>>
    ForeFlight monitors event schedules for Major League Baseball, the National Football League, NCAA Football, Indy Car, NASCAR Sprint Cup, and Formula 1 and integrates that information into the TFR layer on the Maps view.

    ForeFlight looks forward seven days for events that match this criteria and the default duration for each event is set to six hours. Red TFRs are active or will be active in the next 8 hours. Yellow TFRs are inactive for at least the next 8 hours.
    <<<
     
  32. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Line Up and Wait

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    Anthony,

    I have had firsthand experience with this (acting on behalf of the FAA) multiple times in the past few years. I do not fully agree with Zeldman's description of what is likely to happen from here. Not saying it's impossible, but in my experience, highly unlikely. Especially here in the northeast, PDs, even those involving penetrating a POTUS TFR, don't tend to immediately result in Enforcement Actions.

    The sequence of events will be something like this:

    The PD is written up and the FSDO with jurisdiction will assign the case to an ASI.

    The ASI will have a small stack of similar PDs and will go through them one by one. In my experience you're looking at anywhere from 2-4 weeks before you get a call, but that's not set in stone.

    The ASI will make initial contact with you. It is my strong recommendation that you "demonstrate a compliant attitude," withhold nothing and admit to everything. I realize this is contrary to the advice of some attorneys, however, in the recently renamed "Compliance Program" (former the "Compliance Philosophy") it is a critical component in the decision tree of how the FSDO will handle the deviation. He will likely ask you to submit a brief written account of what happened, either by email or some other means. I would recommend that you describe where you fell short of your pre-flight planning obligations (14 CFR 91.103), how you'd better prepare for a flight next time, and so on.

    After they've spoken with you and received your account of the PD, they decide what to do with you. There are multiple options: Enforcement Action (rarely used these days except for egregious violations) or Administrative Action. (There are some sub variants but they don't matter for this scenario.)

    Worst case scenario first: once they decide to go with Enforcement Action, it's over. You will have a proposed certificate action sent to you, and almost nothing will stop the chain of events from unfolding to the point that you're dealing with a suspension of airman privileges. It's possible that with a properly submitted ASRS form you will not have to actually serve the suspension, although it would still go on your record.

    However, the good news is that's extremely unlikely, especially if you followed my guidance above. Most likely it will be an Administrative Action, and most commonly they'll assign RT (Remedial Training) with a local CFI, often a FAASTeam rep. This is how I know a fair amount about this subject - I've conducted numerous RTs, the majority of which have been for TFR penetrations, including VIP TFRs. We get a lot of presidential visits up here in the summer, and we've had upwards of 32+ reported incursions per visit. (Ugh... )

    If RT is proposed, and you accept (and in my humble opinion, you'd be crazy not to), you have to agree to it in writing. It becomes a binding contract between you and the FAA. In many cases, by this point the ASI will have turned the actual administration of the RT over to another ASI who is frequently the FPM (FAASTeam Program Manager.) Due to the FPM's connections with the GA community he or she is often best suited to assign the RT to an experienced local CFI. You must agree to bear all costs for the training, including paying the CFI his/her hourly rate.

    The syllabus typically includes a mix of online training from FAASafety.gov (typically videos and/or interactive CBT of some kind.) Then there will be a specific syllabus of training, usually just ground training for TFR incursions, but it is possible there would be both ground and flight training required. It's usually anywhere from 6-10 hours of total training, including both the online portion as well as ground/flight.

    When I conduct RTs I try to attend a meeting at the FSDO with the ASI and the airman as a general "pre-brief" and to put the subject of the RT at ease. Once RT is assigned, the hard part is over. You just have to do your part, demonstrate a compliant attitude throughout and complete the training on the appropriate timeline. You will be given a deadline -- take it seriously. The ASI may or may not extend the cutoff date due to personal reasons. By way of example, we had one RT in which the airman had a vacation planned overseas which would have made the proposed timeline for the training syllabus impossible. The ASI's attitude was that it wasn't a good enough reason to delay the Remedial Training. The airman's options were to give up the RT option or cancel his vacation. He chose the latter.

    In my experience the only way this doesn't go the way of RT is if 1) you're combative on the phone with the ASI, 2) avoid phone calls or letters on this matter from the FSDO, or 3) you penetrated the inner core of the VIP TFR. I won't make the call on that last one based on your limited description of events. When you poke a hole inside the 10nm ring the odds of Administrative Action diminish rather sharply.

    If those three things don't become issues, in my experience you have a better than 95% chance of going the RT route. Remember... admit to everything, conceal nothing, don't make excuses. That first phone call is pretty important.

    Best of luck,
     
  33. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Excellent!!! They were not depicted back in “my day” of VFR flying. But.... the question still remains, are outdoor theatres still depicted??
     
  34. Stingray Don

    Stingray Don En-Route

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    As does FlyQ
     
  35. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Shoreline Amphitheater is about half-way between Moffett Field (NUQ) and Palo Alto Airport (PAO), and there's no indication of it on either the TAC or the sectional.
     
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  36. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    They did at one time, but that policy changed, if I'm recalling correctly, about 4 years ago, deciding instead to be a little kinder to unintentional 1st time offenders. Then there's the Compliance Philosophy (now the "Compliance Program") adding another layer of "let's take a look at what happened before figuratively pulling the trigger.

    But it's still about handling it correctly.

    Part of which is: not talking about it on social media (like this forum).
     
  37. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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  38. Bobanna

    Bobanna Line Up and Wait

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  39. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yes, the briefings are stored. ForeFlight was an approved provider of "full" briefings when such a thing existed (it no longer does), and if you use the Brief function, you do not need to call LockMart.

    https://support.foreflight.com/hc/e...-weather-briefing-for-FAR-Part-91-operations-

    The briefers know the Stadium TFR exists. They do not know where the stadiums are, nor what their schedules are, and I'm pretty sure that's on purpose. I'm glad ForeFlight et al have stepped up to the plate to make this MUCH easier to interpret.
     
  40. NoHeat

    NoHeat En-Route

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    Yes, and here’s an example that is right next to a stadium, in Fort Collins CO. The stadium was demolished in the last year, but the sectional still shows it. The drive-in theater is still there and showing double features.

    A7C2F1C9-0DE6-419C-80C6-9EA0D8002593.jpeg [