FAA Overhaul Bill to be Released July 1

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by old cfi, Jun 26, 2015.

  1. vintage cessna

    vintage cessna Cleared for Takeoff

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    Here is the problem with user fees for GA. The fuel tax is more than adequate share of a fair pay. The ATC system was built for the airlines, GA traffic for the most part is an after thought. The amount of resources that goes into servicing GA traffic is minuscule. If GA IFR traffic drops to next to nothing and little revenue is collected that will be of no impact to this new " corporation" . There will not be a corresponding reduction of the ATC workforce to match the reduction of traffic.

    I am not union bashing here. I am all for private sector unions do what ever it is they do within the law. But this money grab is the reason some states prohibit public sector unions. Many states that do allow public sector unions are now being confronted with reality. After years of a system that allows public employees to bribe their bosses, the chickens are coming home to roost.

    This new system will end most GA IFR flying.
     
  2. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    The inflated costs at non profits are executive salaries.
     
  3. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Between database costs, initial training, proficiency training, unknown future user fees, a new WAAS/LPV navigator for the Cardinal is looking less and less attractive.
     
  4. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    so, maybe controllers are over paid? We can fix that.:yes:
     
  5. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    :confused: I'm missing the connective logic to the user fees unless you are just planning on getting out of flying.:dunno:
     
  6. docmirror

    docmirror Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Cowboy - yeehah!
    Think of all those thousands of planes that will be lurking between 10-12.5k altitudes squawking 1200. In all kinds of weather. Suddenly the concept of VFR will become very liberal.

    It is -- glorious.
     
  7. N801BH

    N801BH Touchdown! Greaser! Gone West

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    Yup....

    Jackson is one of the most expensive places to buy into and live... I know 3 retired ATC guys here,, one loves to fly and we go for flights all the time in my plane, the others and him all love to ski , snowmobile, and alot of other " non cheap" activities.

    They all were hired after the PATCO strike...
    They all are in their 50's.....
    They all have been retired for a few years....
    They all live in VERY nice homes...
    They all have VERY nice toys....
    None are struggling financially...

    After a few beers at the 19th hole they all admit they get a 6 figure pension, with 50 bucks a year deductable medical plan, zero deductable dental plan...

    With a COLA = (Cost Of Living Adjustment) clause, these guys will probably live another 30+ years and receive MILLIONS from their retirement plans...

    Moral of this story.... They ain't eating cat food and living under a bridge..:no::no::nono:.....:rolleyes:
     
  8. roncachamp

    roncachamp Final Approach

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    Wrath of Khan
     
  9. PeeGee

    PeeGee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    and before they walked off the job they would invoke the railway labor act and force them back to work. They have no power ever split from the government.
     
  10. PeeGee

    PeeGee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Where did anyone say NATCA was for it? They aren't, rinaldi stood in front of congress and essentially said we don't like this, but if it's what's going to happen want to be involved in the process.
     
  11. N801BH

    N801BH Touchdown! Greaser! Gone West

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    We all know they can create a " work slowdown" that will be just as effective and next to impossible to prove...

    The general public ain't as dumb as some believe they are...:rolleyes:
     
  12. PeeGee

    PeeGee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    COLA doesn't raise your salary when the high three is calculated. Locality does.
    You don't get locality or cola in retirement.
    the federal salary is capped well below 200k
    no one is making 100k a year on pension alone in FERS. You would need a high three average of 200k which isn't possible.
    their medical plans are the same medical plans I have available and none of that is true unless they're over 65 and are on medicare like the rest of the population.
    but please continue with your anecdotal evidence :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2015
  13. PeeGee

    PeeGee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I forgot, everyone around here knows everything :rolleyes:
    I don't know why I bother trying to explain anything.
     
  14. N801BH

    N801BH Touchdown! Greaser! Gone West

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    I am 100% sure..... You are wrong...
     
  15. PeeGee

    PeeGee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yeah! You caught me! I have no idea how my own retirement works.
    jesus ****ing christ. :rolleyes:
     
  16. MarkZ

    MarkZ En-Route

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    Not completely. COLA increases follow normal increases.

    Pension is roughly 1% per year served, based on highest three year average salary.

    The rest of retirement comes from TSP, which is self-funded. It's a 401k with a different name.

    This is all public information that can be found with general Google knowledge.

    As for slowing down traffic, give me a break. The 1970's were a LONG time ago. And that was the last time any slowdown occurred.

    Scratch that, maybe things do get slowed down...when we have more and more rules and procedures to follow because of "knee jerk" reactions. CRDA, ODO, RECAT, you name them...but I digress.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2015
  17. Circuit Flyer

    Circuit Flyer Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I can't even read it without hearing the staccato intonation in my head.
     
  18. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    it's more than 1% per year served.....more like 2% per year.
     
  19. PeeGee

    PeeGee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    depends on which cola, allowance or adjustment. col(allowance) was/is being phased out in favor of locality. col(adjustment) yes is still in effect. COL(allowance) didn't calculate in your high three like locality does just like everyone on social security and every federal retiree.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2015
  20. N801BH

    N801BH Touchdown! Greaser! Gone West

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    Now you are changing your story........

    Apparently you do NOT know how your own retirement works...:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::(
     
  21. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    technically he's right....but when you add it up...you're right. :D


    TSP = 100% matching - (20 yrs * 5%+5% @ $140K) - with interest $850K ~ $5,000/mo
    SS = $2,500/mo
    pension = $4,460/mo

    bout $11,960/mo.....not shabby for a day's work. :D

    that's bout $143,520 annually.
     
  22. brien23

    brien23 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Wa. state unlawful for public employees to strike but teachers go out on strike every year.
     
  23. PeeGee

    PeeGee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I haven't changed a god damn thing. You still don't have a clue.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2015
  24. PeeGee

    PeeGee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    He said 100k on pension alone. When is 4460 times 12 100k?
     
  25. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    did you read what I wrote?.....I said you were right. :mad2:
     
  26. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    Because it's not a reduction in government spending.

    By the above logic, if my company decided tomorrow to change all of us from employees to contractors and left all of our benefits and their costs intact, the company would be smaller.

    Contractor or employee doesn't matter at all. It's about services and the bottom line.

    My county paved four miles of dirt road. No one expected it, nor wanted it, and they hired a contractor for it at a price tag of $2.3M. If we aren't calling contracted work "government" then sure, they didn't grow the size of government in the county.

    But that's not how we measure such things. They grew the cost of government.

    Measuring services by who wrote the last check to the employee is silly. You have to measure it by who wrote the first check.
     
  27. vintage cessna

    vintage cessna Cleared for Takeoff

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    An Air traffic Controllers annuity portion of retirement under FERS is calculated differently than the standard Federal employee.

    For the first 20 years of service, take the average high salary of the last three years of service and multiply by 1.7 %, then multiply that by 20. Then for years over 20, take the average high salary and multiply by 1%. , then multiply that by the number of years of service above twenty, then add both together.

    A typical years of service would be about 25, and since the majority of controllers work in a Center or major Tracon, average high 3 would be somewhere between 150,000 to 160,000. Then add in an Social Security , which they are entitled to immediately upon retirement, and you are up around 50% without even counting TSP.
     
  28. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    ATCers have a 1.7% per creditable year multiplier for the first 20? Good for them! The rest of us FERS orphans get that 1% garbage. For 25 years that's 39% plus whatever for SS for ATC. For a vanilla FERS guy you're looking at a 25% pension. Oh and these days if you were hired after 2014 the yearly cost due to the pension system is 4.4% of your salary. Every. year. Yeah buddy, now you have to spend another 5% into TSP to at least get 4% back that they took from ya in order to pay into the pension. And that's locked out in a 401k account, so it's not really getting anything back to affect your working age lifestyle, which matters more to me than retirement lifestyle.

    Folks before 2014 were looking at 0.8% due to the pension system every year in contrast. So not only is your pension a half from CSRS days, you also suffer a net paycut in working life due to the deductions. Those greedy greedy young federal workers I tell ya...:rolleyes2: gimme a break.


    I don't know what's with all the hate. In the military our multiplier is 2.5, and they're working hard at reducing it. It also has a vesting period of 20 years, so it's hard for most to get it considering the crappy QOL afforded by many duty stations and job descriptions, never mind the pointless deployments and political BS while in garrison. Considering the majority of these folks are enlisted, 50% of an enlisted salary is not enough to retire on, so most of these folks find themselves right back at work, many at significant paycuts. Bottom line, hardly anyone is walking around on pensions that replace the full 70% replacement income that is required to truly sit on your rear and tell the world to go eff itself. I don't know when it turned cool to display such schadenfreude against defined benefit workers.
    All 401ks are doing for the rank and file W2 worker is providing a lower standard of American living in working life, for an equally monastic lifestyle in retirement. The only reason one would ever applaud or cheer that dynamic on, as children of people who had it better (my parents are boomers and both have 75% state pensions) mind you, is schadenfreude. That's toxicity and doesn't leave anyone better off.

    I'm not against defined contribution....when it's in the form of an emploYER funded B-fund with at least 14% contribution. But employee-contributed plans? Get out of town with that paycut. :no:
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2015
  29. ClimbnSink

    ClimbnSink Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Costs are going up, freedom down. Any questions?
     
  30. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Of course it's not a cut in spending, if government cut spending it would alter the "demand" side of the supply and demand situation and then business would have to lower their profits to recreate demand which would throw the stock markets into chaos; that will not be allowed, and is not on the current agenda. We want a healthy stock market above all, and this is how the wealthy manage to keep it growing.
     
  31. vintage cessna

    vintage cessna Cleared for Takeoff

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    I was just trying to clarify what the reality is for ATC. A controller retiring under FERS can easily have a six figure retirement. I don't think most people know what is going on in this field.

    I retired several years ago and I was taking in over 200K gross per annum. There is almost no turnover in this occupation , it is so good. And you don't have to worry about getting fired or layed off. I worked in a major Center and the average time on position, that is the average time per shift actually working traffic during an 8 hour shift was 3.5 to 4 hours.

    You know as a pilot that if you violate airspace or screw up in some manner that you could be facing a suspension of your certificate. Do you know what happens when a controller screws up? Nothing, they have immunity. That still doesn't prevent them from claiming up to 45 days off under workmans comp since they are " traumatized". Not saying all or even the majority of controllers abuse the system that way but it is easy to do if one wants to. Throw in about 5 weeks of vacation time and 2 and a half weeks sick leave, a super retirement and it should be easy to see that getting a job as an ATC is akin to winning the lottery.
     
  32. N801BH

    N801BH Touchdown! Greaser! Gone West

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    I consider a pension to be the complete retirement package.... :redface:
     
  33. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    well....them days ended a while ago. :nono:
     
  34. overdrive148

    overdrive148 En-Route

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    What's retirement? :confused:
     
  35. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    It's when you quit selling your life for money.
     
  36. BillTIZ

    BillTIZ Final Approach

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    I was looking at the statement of "quality of work suffering" because of contractor vs govt. it's the contractors where I work that train the military in how it's done and then they move on to other "jobs" and eventually earn enough experience and rank to oversee the contract.

    A few years ago at Edwards AFB, they decided they had too many contractors and converted contract positions to govt jobs. They could not find the people willing to fill those positions. Experienced contractors choose to retire rather than bid for and work in the govt system.

    Some did take the govt positions as they were "too young" to retire, and the were caught in govt red tape and stalled pay and locked down promotion process.

    And the work suffered for it.
     
  37. BillTIZ

    BillTIZ Final Approach

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    It was not that great an offer. They were threatened with conversion to the Social Security system for retirement, but could not draw on SS until age 62 and still had mandatory retirement at age 56 with no information on what would cover the gap.

    Early medical retirement was available, but for 2 years leading up to 1981, FAA had been denying medical retirement to those that could no longer pass the Class II medical due to job related hypertension health problems. They were let go with no pension opportunities.

    The federal pay cap was applied to every two week pay period, not annually. Holiday, night diff, Sunday diff, and then asked to stay an extra two hours at end of shift to get through a traffic crunch and you found out you worked for free because of the pay cap. You did not get it back in the next pay period when you were well below the cap, it was gone, never to be recovered.

    Then add the rotating shifts and rotating days off and let's talk about circadian rhythm on sleep/work cycles and the problems that result.

    The contract "offer" did not cover any of those issues. Plus the fact that govt raises had been well behind the public sector and inflation for years and the "offer" did not come close to making it up.
     
  38. BillTIZ

    BillTIZ Final Approach

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    That's what I was thinking.
     
  39. Jim Logajan

    Jim Logajan En-Route

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    You scare easily. (Not a fan of that site; the original document exists here: http://transportation.house.gov/uploadedfiles/faa_bill_principles.pdf)

    Keep in mind that terminal and en-route air traffic control began operation under the control of private entities such as airports and airlines [1][2][3]. Government control came years later.

    With the exception of a report commissioned by NATCA [4], most others have found that privatization/commercialization of ATC did lead to control of cost increases and safety improved [5][6]. In terms of IFR movements per controller or GA aircraft per controller, when compared to the "commercialized" ATCs of France, the UK, Canada, and Germany, the US comes out as being more inefficient than all but France.[6]

    Some slightly in-depth pro commercialization/privatization articles are in [7], [8], and [9]. A more ambivalent to slightly negative article is in [10].

    As an aside, my personal observation of some PoA members is that many who I would have thought (based on their posts on other subjects) were principled libertarians, turn out instead to be opportunistic "libertarians" when they are the unfair benefactors of a social government redistribution of wealth. Then they tend to object to a change in the status quo that propose to makes things more fair. (By contrast, principled libertarians have consistently championed ATC privatization for a couple decades. [7])

    [1] http://avstop.com/history/atc/air_traffic_control_begins.htm
    [2] http://www.faa.gov/news/communicati...s of Federal Air Traffic Control 06-21-11.pdf
    [3] http://catsr.ite.gmu.edu/SYST460/Chap1HistoryofAirTrafficControl.pdf
    [4] http://mycourses.flyuvu.com/external_media/class_files/4700/pitfalls_of_atc_privatization.pdf
    [5] http://commons.erau.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1521&context=jaaer
    [6] https://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/default/files/FAA Reform March 2015 Long Statement_final_rev_508.pdf
    [7] http://reason.org/files/apr-2014-air-transportation.pdf
    [8] http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...ystem-offers-alternative-cost-cutting-nations
    [9] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joshua-l-schank-phd/a-few-clarifications-abou_b_7461168.html
    [10] https://www.americanprogress.org/is...ions-about-air-traffic-control-privatization/
     
  40. vintage cessna

    vintage cessna Cleared for Takeoff

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    Except what is being proposed is not "privatization ". If it is going to be truly private put it out for bid. The entire system could probably be entirely automated within the next 20 years if it was really private.