roncachamp
Final Approach
If it is going to be truly private there will be no entity to submit bids to.
FAA Overhaul Bill to be Released July 1
- Thread starter old cfi
- Start date
If it is going to be truly private there will be no entity to submit bids to.
Exactly, if they want to commercialize ATC, the FAA should just disappear altogether and eliminate any government involvement in aviation, TSA as well. That is how you really shrink government, quit being involved at all. Commercializing service at tax payer expense is BS.
As for French ATC being efficient..
They go on strike so much the EU is looking at forming a EU ATC to eliminate the French one.
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
Oh, you mean private like the Post Office?
That really worked out good.....
That really worked out good.....
Oh, you mean private like the Post Office?
That really worked out good.....
......
roncachamp
Final Approach
Oh, you mean private like the Post Office?
That really worked out good.....
The US Postal Service is an independent agency of the US government.
Jim Logajan
En-Route
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Details wont be released till July 1 or later, so all we have right now to judge is this claimed goal:
"Establish a federally chartered, fully independent, not-for-profit corporation to operate and modernize the ATC system, free from the volatile funding uncertainty, political meddling, and bureaucratic inertia that have plagued FAA and our ATC system in years past."
To get an idea of the kind of entity proposed, the following are examples of some existing federally chartered, fully independent, not-for-profit corporations:
Boy Scouts of America
Girl Scouts of America
American Legion
American Red Cross
Little League Baseball
4H Club
These are examples that are federally chartered but don't make the cut because they get some or all their funding from the federal government:
National Academy of Sciences
Federal Reserve Bank
FDIC
vintage cessna
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retro
Does a not for profit system somehow ensure a safer system? Airlines are for profit and their safety record is excellent.
The technology is already here to automate the system, which should be the goal of any modernization effort. A for profit, non chartered corporation will have a reason to reach that goal, a non profit run by committee will not.
The Federal Reserve doesn't get funding from the government, they fund the government. They have the franchise to create money at will, and in exchange for that franchise are required to buy any bonds the Treasury cannot sell to someone else. What they get from the government (us, We the People) is the origination fee on every dollar and the interest owed on the bonds.
roncachamp
Final Approach
What is that reason? How would it function?
How would what function? Automated ATC?
roncachamp
Final Approach
How would a for-profit, non-chartered corporation operate an automated ATC system?
By charging for it like elsewhere. Air Services in Aus is an example. They charge for everything.
roncachamp
Final Approach
What is everything? What services are provided?
Everything is from charts and plates to landing clearance.
Dr. O
Pattern Altitude
As someone who has to live on what he managed to save I find the discussion moot.
How well or how poorly retired ATC personnel live is not relevant.
What is relevant is the unceasing attempts by the professional politicians to place user fees on top of the fuel tax for GA.
We are thundering down the road to European socialism where everyone is 'entitled' and everything in sight is taxed to death.
The 239 year grand American experiment in democracy and self determination is ending in a whimper. The Founders have to be rotating in their graves. All that blood, all that sweat, all those tears, and we end up as just another socialist craphole.
dr. o
How well or how poorly retired ATC personnel live is not relevant.
What is relevant is the unceasing attempts by the professional politicians to place user fees on top of the fuel tax for GA.
We are thundering down the road to European socialism where everyone is 'entitled' and everything in sight is taxed to death.
The 239 year grand American experiment in democracy and self determination is ending in a whimper. The Founders have to be rotating in their graves. All that blood, all that sweat, all those tears, and we end up as just another socialist craphole.
dr. o
The "American Experiment" ended in 1913 with the Federal Reserve Act.
roncachamp
Final Approach
What about enroute operations? How do they deal with those that decline to use ATC services?
VFR? You don't pay anything if you don't use services, just the airport ATC charges at those (few) that have them.
roncachamp
Final Approach
No, IFR. How do they deal with those that decline to use ATC services during enroute operations in IMC?
Is no such thing. In Australia, IFR is basically unheard of unless you are an Air Carrier as maintaining an IR is an annual check ride, virtually nobody GA does it. The Aussies have a "Except under press of weather" clause in all their clearances, basically legalized scud running, and that includes commercial ops.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Well, then, you picked a bad example.
I must have missed something in the question then, I thought it was about how a for profit private ATC would work.
Jim Logajan
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I believe the usual claim is that profit oriented entities wont make expenditures on anything that improves safety until they are forced to - by law or by loss of customers. Thus maximizing profits at the expense of safety. Presumably non-profits wouldn't have the same motivation, though it isn't clear what stops management of a non-profit from fattening their personal compensation with the same end result isn't clear to me.
Actually I think a user-run cooperative may be a better model that would permit such modernization, as suggested by this article:
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/fixg...user-cooperative-government-corporation-robyn
User cooperative. The user cooperative approach has shown itself to be superior, in theory and practice. In theory, it achieves an elegant alignment of incentives: because the stakeholder board is dominated by users, it governs the air traffic control system so as to keep costs low and invest in capital at the optimal level. This simple design solution creates an incentive for efficient performance in the absence of competition and it eliminates the incentive for monopoly abuse. Although the government participates as a member of the board (and serves as an independent safety regulator) its involvement in the private system can otherwise be minimal.
...
Of the 60 air traffic control systems around the world that have been spun off as autonomous, business-like entities, one is measurably outperforming the others. The reason is incentives: Nav Canada’s basic organizational design—management by a stakeholder board that is dominated by the users themselves—creates an incentive for efficiency in the absence of competition and eliminates the incentive for monopoly abuse.
roncachamp
Final Approach
The question was; "How would a for-profit, non-chartered corporation operate an automated ATC system?"
By putting all the traffic & terrain avoidance in the planes. Think ADS-B + TCAS & GPWS for everyone. Same way you would do autonomous planes. Basically the "free flight" system.
roncachamp
Final Approach
So what does that leave for the corporation to operate?
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The database updates, ADS-B infrastructure, and control towers at airports. Minimum manpower + captive audience = profit.
roncachamp
Final Approach
What's the revenue source for this for-profit, non-chartered corporation?
gacoon
Pre-takeoff checklist
Mode-s and adsb out transponders have a secret place to enter Visa card number. No number no clerance.
Airlines and anybody who need Class A, B, C, & D airspace or to get a database update or ADSB input. Who says it's not chartered?
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
uncle sugar....just like always....
cept the employees will be screwed outta their mega salaries and bonuses and...and...over-time.
roncachamp
Final Approach
roncachamp
Final Approach
uncle sugar....just like always....
cept the employees will be screwed outta their mega salaries and bonuses and...and...over-time.
So the government would provide funds in accordance with the charter?
No pay, no access. Basically restricted to G airspace.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Pay whom for what? Remember, all the traffic & terrain avoidance has been put in the planes.
Sure, but you have to pay your monthly fee for the database to work since the chips are time limited and self deleting/denying. Left public it could really reduce the costs of ATC, however when privatized it becomes a profit center.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Pay whom?
The company that has the franchise, same as we do with the Federal Reserve.
Hmmm..
The DATABASE centers.
The AIRPORT when landing there..
Seems simple to me...