Do You Understand HILPT???

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M20K

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PeteMc
Over on FB there was a quiz question posed by Gold Seal about Hold In Lieu of Procedure Turn (HILPT) and I was amazed how many people had no clue or thought they knew and got the answer totally wrong.

I don't like to repost other peoples product without permission, but I don't think they'd mind the scenario being repeated to see if the issue is as wide spread as it appeared. So I picked a random Approach to ask a similar question (plate below).

Scenario: You are headed towards MHW from the SW at 4,000ft and on a track of 036 dgrs (basically aligned with the Final Approach Course). ATC tells you: N1234 proceed Direct ONPIC, cross ONPIC at 4,000ft, Cleared for the RNAV Y Rwy 4 at Grant Co.

What do you do when you reach ONPIC? Can you proceed Straight In?

(And if this is something you really already understand, hold off on answering to see what kind of response we get from others. And if you're a Inst. Student, speak up, what have you been taught so far?)


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I know the regulatory, the practical, the safe and the best answers, but you said not to answer if I do. :)

I agree this is often either taught wrong or forgotten because it doesn't happen at most airports in real flying. Also, while the rule is extremely easy to learn and record back, everyone tries to make it harder than it is by overthinking it.
 
Fffflats said:
Maybe arriving SERPA from the south makes for a more fair question
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Not so much to be a fair question. :D But to see if people actually understand.

The Inst student's responses didn't surprise me as much as those that said they were "professional" pilots and didn't understand. :eek:
 
M20K said:
Over on FB there was a quiz question posed by Gold Seal about Hold In Lieu of Procedure Turn (HILPT) and I was amazed how many people had no clue or thought they knew and got the answer totally wrong.

I don't like to repost other peoples product without permission, but I don't think they'd mind the scenario being repeated to see if the issue is as wide spread as it appeared. So I picked a random Approach to ask a similar question (plate below).

Scenario: You are headed towards MHW from the SW at 4,000ft and on a track of 036 dgrs (basically aligned with the Final Approach Course). ATC tells you: N1234 proceed Direct ONPIC, cross ONPIC at 4,000ft, Cleared for the RNAV Y Rwy 4 at Grant Co.

What do you do when you reach ONPIC? Can you proceed Straight In?

(And if this is something you really already understand, hold off on answering to see what kind of response we get from others. And if you're a Inst. Student, speak up, what have you been taught so far?)


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I’ll hold off on answering the question as you asked but will inject that Controllers sometimes get this wrong. This is one of those be sure you’re on the same page as the Controller thangs.
 
Not an answer to your question. I will redirect. With the technology we have now why should there be any ambiguity to any ATC direction? The plethora of stump the chump IFR (and mundane pattern questions) are an embarrassment and and an indictment to the resistance to change ancient rituals written in blood.

If procedures are confusing it’s not ATC or the pilot that should be ridiculed.
 
I’m IR, but 2-3 years out of currency. If it’s during tower ops, I’ll just ask them if I’m approved straight in, no hold. If after hours, I’ll ask approach control the same thing. Why? Because I don’t know the book answer, either because I forgot or was not taught (and if I was taught wrong, maybe it’s good that I forgot). Maybe not the answer you were looking for. Am I a fool?
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
I’m IR, but 2-3 years out of currency. If it’s during tower ops, I’ll just ask them if I’m approved straight in, no hold. If after hours, I’ll ask approach control the same thing. Why? Because I don’t know the book answer, either because I forgot or was not taught (and if I was taught wrong, maybe it’s good that I forgot). Maybe not the answer you were looking for. Am I a fool?
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Absolutely the correct way to negotiate an anachronistic system. Would today’s world accept people flying around? I’m guessing we should just accept and abide by unintelligible vagaries rather than force modern discipline into GA aircraft. If people know what we can do, they would not optimize the process. They would ban it.

BTW, I just acquired a 260SE
 
This is one of those things where there's a "right" answer, and there's a right answer.

The technically correct answer is likely not what the controller is expecting nor what the pilot wants. So, if I got that, I'd ask the controller for clarification, including the two magic words that they forgot in their clearance the first time they issued it. That way you get the right clearance and everyone is on the same page - Or, you get told that they really meant for you to do the regulatory correct answer and not the convenient one.

Reminds me of a time where we were cleared airport to airport on a roughly south initial course and took off from a westerly runway and then given a vector which was roughly toward the destination. My FO was PF. ATC asked what our course to the destination was, and I answered. ATC said to "resume own navigation". FO went for "technically correct" instead of what ATC likely intended, and began turning left to intercept the course from the airport we had departed rather than going direct to the destination. I stopped him and queried ATC whether they meant direct or back to the initial course, and of course they meant direct.

Always always always worth clarifying whatever so that everyone is on the same page.
 
M20K said:
Over on FB there was a quiz question posed by Gold Seal about Hold In Lieu of Procedure Turn (HILPT) and I was amazed how many people had no clue or thought they knew and got the answer totally wrong.

I don't like to repost other peoples product without permission, but I don't think they'd mind the scenario being repeated to see if the issue is as wide spread as it appeared. So I picked a random Approach to ask a similar question (plate below).

Scenario: You are headed towards MHW from the SW at 4,000ft and on a track of 036 dgrs (basically aligned with the Final Approach Course). ATC tells you: N1234 proceed Direct ONPIC, cross ONPIC at 4,000ft, Cleared for the RNAV Y Rwy 4 at Grant Co.

What do you do when you reach ONPIC? Can you proceed Straight In?

(And if this is something you really already understand, hold off on answering to see what kind of response we get from others. And if you're a Inst. Student, speak up, what have you been taught so far?)


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The answer is in the AIM, and it isn't particularly hidden or cryptic. But regardless of what the rules say, this is something I would clarify with the controller rather than leave room for ambiguity.

In a non-radar environment, and out of radio contact, the situation is a bit different. ATC has protected the airspace, so it is not going to matter what you do. Of course, that doesn't mean the rules don't apply, but no one is going to know, or even care.
 
(a) Instrument approaches to civil airports. Unless otherwise authorized by the FAA, when it is necessary to use an instrument approach to a civil airport, each person operating an aircraft must use a standard instrument approach procedure prescribed in part 97 of this chapter for that airport.

(j) Limitation on procedure turns. In the case of a radar vector to a final approach course or fix, a timed approach from a holding fix, or an approach for which the procedure specifies “No PT,” no pilot may make a procedure turn unless cleared to do so by ATC.
 
I'm not a pro, nor an instrument student. Without looking it up, yes technically you must do that procedure turn. That said, the controller probably doesn't expect you to and I wouldn't want to. I would request cleared straight in.

From memory, to avoid the turn it must say no PT on the approach plate, or you're cleared straight in, or you're being vectored, or you fly the turn.
 
I don’t have Jepp plates but I would like to see such for the OP approach into KMWH. There are two catches in here that skew you away from the original question. One is cluttered and hard to notice, the other is in open white space but displaced just enough that you may glance past it. One means you will be straight it. The other means you will be neither straight in nor PT but would only apply in the instance that you didn’t go through the first catch. Because of these two catches, the KIZG example really is more pure to the question being asked. Note because of the first, ONPIC isn’t the IAF and thus is a vector to final, so yes you’re straight in. But can they give it to you because of the second? I’d also like to see how it loads in your system as such tends to remove the unrelated portions.

IMG_1993.jpeg
 
I’m currently not current, but my answer is given that instruction you have to do a lap in the hold even through you don’t need to lose any altitude.

Only when coming from IAFs EDSEW or RUBEL may you omit the hold, and I believe the reason is you can drop from MSA ( or whatever) down to 4000 along the route from your particular IAF to ONPIC.

IRL I’d ask the controller if they want a hold or to omit and proceed straight in.

Do I win a cookie or a dunce cap?
 
Fffflats said:
I don’t have Jepp plates but I would like to see such for the OP approach into KMWH. There are two catches in here that skew you away from the original question. One is cluttered and hard to notice, the other is in open white space but displaced just enough that you may glance past it. One means you will be straight it. The other means you will be neither straight in nor PT but would only apply in the instance that you didn’t go through the first catch. Because of these two catches, the KIZG example really is more pure to the question being asked. Note because of the first, ONPIC isn’t the IAF and thus is a vector to final, so yes you’re straight in. But can they give it to you because of the second? I’d also like to see how it loads in your system as such tends to remove the unrelated portions.
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I’m not sure what you mean. ONPIC is clearly marked as both an IAF and an IF. And, even if not, direct to an IF is not a “radar vector to a final approach course or fix.”

Loading in a Garmin, you will be asked if you want the hold. IIRC, loading in an Avidyne, the hold will be included.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I’m not sure what you mean. ONPIC is clearly marked as both an IAF and an IF. And, even if not, direct to an IF is not a “radar vector to a final approach course or fix.”
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If you’re coming from the southwest, RUBEL is your IAF. If they shortcut you direct to ONPIC, that is now a vector. You’re from the SW sector, your IAF RUBEL didn’t change.
 
Fffflats said:
If you’re coming from the southwest, RUBEL is your IAF. If they shortcut you direct to ONPIC, that is now a vector. You’re from the SW sector, your IAF RUBEL didn’t change.
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Though why did they do this? Makes no sense. ONPIC with a top at 8K really would help as providing spiral down in the hold for coming off RUBEL as an en route not IAF.

IMG_1995.jpeg
 
M20K said:
Over on FB there was a quiz question posed by Gold Seal about Hold In Lieu of Procedure Turn (HILPT) and I was amazed how many people had no clue or thought they knew and got the answer totally wrong.
Click to expand...
The most interesting answer I ever saw to one of these is that you always have to do the HILPT because a HILPT is not a procedure turn so the rules about procedure turns do not apply. The scenario in that one was a NoPT TAA.
 
Like I said, we disagree. From a rules standpoint, direct to an IF is not a vector to the final approach course and requires a "cleared straight in" instruction. Not sure that the note about airways having too sharp a turn at MWH or the MSA have to do it it.
 
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Fffflats said:
I don’t have Jepp plates but I would like to see such for the OP approach into KMWH. There are two catches in here that skew you away from the original question. One is cluttered and hard to notice, the other is in open white space but displaced just enough that you may glance past it. One means you will be straight it. The other means you will be neither straight in nor PT but would only apply in the instance that you didn’t go through the first catch. Because of these two catches, the KIZG example really is more pure to the question being asked. Note because of the first, ONPIC isn’t the IAF and thus is a vector to final, so yes you’re straight in. But can they give it to you because of the second? I’d also like to see how it loads in your system as such tends to remove the unrelated portions.

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RussR said:
I agree this is often either taught wrong or forgotten because it doesn't happen at most airports in real flying. Also, while the rule is extremely easy to learn and record back, everyone tries to make it harder than it is by overthinking it.
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I'm not sure it doesn't. Perhaps not at a C or B where vectors to final is the rule of the day, but I've been seeing a lot of direct to an IF and cleared for the approach lately and expect to see more. My home base is an example. Even if you request vectors to final for the ILS or RNAV 3 into TTA, FAY will almost invariably give you direct to the IF. I've suspected it was one of the reasons Garmin changed the action when selecting VTF to include the straight line fixes.
 
Fffflats said:
Maybe arriving SERPA from the south makes for a more fair question:

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Not quite sure what you mean by fair. In the OP’s scenario, where the aircraft is aligned, just by coincidence with the final approach course, does a good job of illustrating why so many get this wrong because it just seems not ‘intuitive’

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midlifeflyer said:
Like I said, we disagree. From a rules standpoint, direct to an IF is not a vector to the final approach course and requires a "cleared straight in" instruction.
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Except that you are using an approach that has no PT as it is an IF inside RUBEL which has no PT. And no controller is going to expect you to do that PT in that circumstance. If they were to want you holding there, maybe clear departing traffic, or other bubble exclusion, they wouldn’t clear you the approach, they’d give you the hold.
 
luvflyin said:
Not quite sure what you mean by fair. In the OP’s scenario, where the aircraft is aligned, just by coincidence with the final approach course, does a good job of illustrating why so many get this wrong because it just seems not ‘intuitive’

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And also you have that RUBEL IAF with no PT and also that you are in the NA wedge of radials… it isn’t a clean question because these other factors are very much at play.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Not sure that the note about airways having too sharp a turn at MWH or the MSA have to do it it.
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As to the airway, the radial in the example is in the exclusion wedge. Though it is the case of a sharp descent off RUBEL as opposed to sharp turn. This, in particular, doesn’t make sense to me, as you could use “the other approach,” IAF ONPIC so as to spiral down at the hold.
 
Fffflats said:
If you’re coming from the southwest, RUBEL is your IAF. If they shortcut you direct to ONPIC, that is now a vector. You’re from the SW sector, your IAF RUBEL didn’t change.
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"Direct" to anything is not a vector. A vector is "fly heading XXX".

From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

VECTOR- A heading issued to an aircraft to provide navigational guidance by radar.

If they give you direct ONPIC, you are no longer flying on a published NoPT route. Your "IAF" is not RUBEL, you have no IAF. You may need to select RUBEL in your FMS, depending on what model it has, but then skip it and go direct to ONPIC. Though you could do the same with EDSEW. Or, depending on model, you could select the "Vectors to Final" option and then select direct to ONPIC.
 
Fffflats said:
And also you have that RUBEL IAF with no PT and also that you are in the NA wedge of radials… it isn’t a clean question because these other factors are very much at play.
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That wedge of radials pertains to arrivals at MWH VOR/DME, as MWH VOR/DME is a feeder route into the procedure. Arrivals in that airway wedge exceed 90 deg when turning onto the 215 course to ONPIC, so it is NA from those directions. So, if you're arriving at MWH VOR/DME along V357, V281, V497, V448 (NE bound), V2 (NE bound), V357, you cannot fly the approach starting at MWH VOR/DME. Of course, if you were arriving on V448 NE bound, you would just use RUBEL anyway and wouldn't go all the way to MWH VOR/DME first, and the same for V2 NE bound with EDSEW.

Just being in that wedge doesn't mean the note applies to you. It strictly pertains to routings through the MWH VOR/DME. Notice that the note does not say Procedure TURN NA, it says PROCEDURE NA. So if that restriction applied to anybody in that wedge for any reason, nobody arriving from the S, SW, W could fly the procedure at all.
 
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szwinger said:
Absolutely the correct way to negotiate an anachronistic system. Would today’s world accept people flying around? I’m guessing we should just accept and abide by unintelligible vagaries rather than force modern discipline into GA aircraft. If people know what we can do, they would not optimize the process. They would ban it.

BTW, I just acquired a 260SE
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Those planes are so Kewl that they should be exempt from all rules and regulations and all other planes should just be kept out of their way
 
Clip4 said:
(a) Instrument approaches to civil airports. Unless otherwise authorized by the FAA, when it is necessary to use an instrument approach to a civil airport, each person operating an aircraft must use a standard instrument approach procedure prescribed in part 97 of this chapter for that airport.

(j) Limitation on procedure turns. In the case of a radar vector to a final approach course or fix, a timed approach from a holding fix, or an approach for which the procedure specifies “No PT,” no pilot may make a procedure turn unless cleared to do so by ATC.
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Hmm. This is getting fun now. Suppose you get cleared direct ONPIC, and just by coincidence, you fly right over EDSEW or RUBEL.
 
Fffflats said:
And no controller is going to expect you to do that PT in that circumstance.
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That may be true, but the controller's manual tells them they have to use the words "cleared straight-in." That's why I mentioned "from a rules standpoint" in an earlier comment.
 
Fffflats said:
And also you have that RUBEL IAF with no PT and also that you are in the NA wedge of radials… it isn’t a clean question because these other factors are very much at playThe airways in question are V357, V281, V448, V2 and V357. And none of that is pertinent to this scenario.
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Fffflats said:
Except that you are using an approach that has no PT as it is an IF inside RUBEL which has no PT. And no controller is going to expect you to do that PT in that circumstance. If they were to want you holding there, maybe clear departing traffic, or other bubble exclusion, they wouldn’t clear you the approach, they’d give you the hold.
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Some Controllers will expect you to do that PT. The ones who know the rule and apply it correctly. It’s the ones who don’t that create the controversy
 
luvflyin said:
Hmm. This is getting fun now. Suppose you get cleared direct ONPIC, and just by coincidence, you fly right over EDSEW or RUBEL.
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Even if you happen to fly over those fixes still doesn't make that your formal clearance. Nevertheless, it is for these reasons that I think this is pedantic discussion. If you are coming from the southwest, no controller is going to expect you to turn around and fly that racetrack. If you do that, he is going to query you what the heck you are doing. If he is wants you fly the hold for traffic separation, he will say so explicity.
 
Some easy ways to fix this,

1. Request a straight-in approach

2. Request 10° Left/Right to join final approach course (to make it a vector to final just outside of ONPIC)

3. Request Direct RUBEL for the approach
 
sarangan said:
Even if you happen to fly over those fixes still doesn't make that your formal clearance. Nevertheless, it is for these reasons that I think this is pedantic discussion. If you are coming from the southwest, no controller is going to expect you to turn around and fly that racetrack. If you do that, he is going to query you what the heck you are doing. If he is wants you fly the hold for traffic separation, he will say so explicity.
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I had a similar situation with a student a couple of months ago. We were south of CZL and received the clearance, direct to GECYE and cleared for the RNAV 35. I asked the student if we had to do the procedure turn. He said "no" because we were in the position for a straight in. I told him that he better verify that with the controller.

When the student asked if we were cleared straight in, the controller very indignantly said "No, you are not!"


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